2020 Elections - Trump FIRED

[old salt]

https://www.heritage.org/election-integ ... oter-fraud
Fraud in the 2003 East Chicago mayoral primary was so widespread that the Indiana Supreme Court ultimately overturned the election results and ordered a special mayoral election that resulted in a different winner.

I meant in 2020, not two decades ago.

But even if we ignore that, none of your examples apply, because those frauds were all detected, and so, in the end, had no impact on the election results.

The election-fraud detection system in the US is extremely robust, more so today than ever.

Apparently you ignored the links detailing cases from 2015.
What caused it to suddenly stop, as mail in / absentee ballot has greatly expanded ?
I list cases that resulted in elections being overturned. That changed the result.

[old salt]

Election fraud definitely can make an outcome determining difference in local races. You can hijack a race for county commissioner.

Which means that what you can't hijack is a national election or a statewide election.

It is one thing to rob one local branch of First Framers Bank and Trust.

Quite another to hack Fort Knox or the entire Federal Reserve System.

As the GOP's election law expert Ben Ginsburg tells us, systematic voter fraud is the GOP's Loch Ness Monster. People have looked hard for it but have never found it. Because it doesn't exist.

So the increased risk to down ballot contests should not be factored into a decision to expand voting via unsolicited mail in ballots ?

...& every driver who exceeds the speed limit is detected & ticketed.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.heritage.org/election-integ ... oter-fraud
Fraud in the 2003 East Chicago mayoral primary was so widespread that the Indiana Supreme Court ultimately overturned the election results and ordered a special mayoral election that resulted in a different winner.

I meant in 2020, not two decades ago.

But even if we ignore that, none of your examples apply, because those frauds were all detected, and so, in the end, had no impact on the election results.

The election-fraud detection system in the US is extremely robust, more so today than ever.

Apparently you ignored the links detailing cases from 2015.
What caused it to suddenly stop, as mail in / absentee ballot has greatly expanded ?
I list cases that resulted in elections being overturned. That changed the result.

Do you mean this link?? Mail-in voting?
You're joking, right?
These have nothing to with mail-in voting...they're penny-ante fraud, bribery, intimidation...nailed.

Posted by Republican National Lawyers Association (RNLA) 0sc on July 15, 2015
For those who believe voter fraud does not exist, here are some of the bizarre stories of voter fraud that took place in just the past six months as compiled by The Daily Signal:

Magoffin County, Kentucky:

In the November 2014 race for county-judge-executive, “people sold their votes” according to evidence. Larry Perkins saw Simon Marshall, a fellow resident of limited intellectual ability, with a new $50 bill, and asked where it came from. Marshall replied, “It is Election Day.” A judge threw out the election results for this and other violations ruling the election a result of fraud and bribery.


Perth Amboy, New Jersey:

Leslie Dominguez-Rodriguez, Democratic Chairwoman, took advantage of nursing home residents and coerced them into voting for her husband, Fernando Gonzales, for Perth Amboy City Council. Gonzales won by only 10 votes, which included a blind man, a resident who could not remember her address or voting, and others who testified of the coercion. A Superior Court judge overturned the election results and ordered a new election to be held.


While the Democrats like to claim that Republicans concocted voter fraud, these cases prove otherwise. The initial election results in both races also indicate why every vote counts. The judges correctly chose against rewarding dishonest election practices when they overturned the results wrongly won elections, and we should continue to fight for honest elections.



The RNLA sends out a weekly email highlighting state and national voter ID issues. To be added to this list, click here.

[MDlaxfan76]

Election fraud definitely can make an outcome determining difference in local races. You can hijack a race for county commissioner.

Which means that what you can't hijack is a national election or a statewide election.

It is one thing to rob one local branch of First Framers Bank and Trust.

Quite another to hack Fort Knox or the entire Federal Reserve System.

As the GOP's election law expert Ben Ginsburg tells us, systematic voter fraud is the GOP's Loch Ness Monster. People have looked hard for it but have never found it. Because it doesn't exist.

So the increased risk to down ballot contests should not be factored into a decision to expand voting via unsolicited mail in ballots ?

Show us the example of sufficiently large scale mail-in voting fraud to impact a down ballot election and how it was actually accomplished...how was it detected?

Yup, not impossible, but any large amount would be caught...why is that? well, because legit mail-in voters can check to see if their vote has been received, voters who not legit are caught in signature matching, etc, etc...

[old salt]

Election fraud definitely can make an outcome determining difference in local races. You can hijack a race for county commissioner.

Which means that what you can't hijack is a national election or a statewide election.

It is one thing to rob one local branch of First Framers Bank and Trust.

Quite another to hack Fort Knox or the entire Federal Reserve System.

As the GOP's election law expert Ben Ginsburg tells us, systematic voter fraud is the GOP's Loch Ness Monster. People have looked hard for it but have never found it. Because it doesn't exist.

So the increased risk to down ballot contests should not be factored into a decision to expand voting via unsolicited mail in ballots ?

Show us the example of sufficiently large scale mail-in voting fraud to impact a down ballot election and how it was actually accomplished...how was it detected?

Yup, not impossible, but any large amount would be caught...

You're now stating opinion as fact.
What amount of election fraud do you deem to be acceptable ?
I included 3 links in my post.

[MDlaxfan76]

Election fraud definitely can make an outcome determining difference in local races. You can hijack a race for county commissioner.

Which means that what you can't hijack is a national election or a statewide election.

It is one thing to rob one local branch of First Framers Bank and Trust.

Quite another to hack Fort Knox or the entire Federal Reserve System.

As the GOP's election law expert Ben Ginsburg tells us, systematic voter fraud is the GOP's Loch Ness Monster. People have looked hard for it but have never found it. Because it doesn't exist.

So the increased risk to down ballot contests should not be factored into a decision to expand voting via unsolicited mail in ballots ?

Show us the example of sufficiently large scale mail-in voting fraud to impact a down ballot election and how it was actually accomplished...how was it detected?

Yup, not impossible, but any large amount would be caught...

You're now stating opinion as fact.
What amount of election fraud do you deem to be acceptable ?
I included 3 links in my post.

Fraud is not acceptable...we ALL are in favor of detection mechanisms/processes and strict prosecution.

It's just that fraud is really hard to perpetrate on a large scale and not be detected...because the election folks actually care about catching fraudsters, the opposing parties care about not getting screwed, the citizens care about clean elections...

But you DO realize that what those who falsely CLAIM wide scale fraud risk really want is to make voting harder to do, right?

[old salt]

Election fraud definitely can make an outcome determining difference in local races. You can hijack a race for county commissioner.

Which means that what you can't hijack is a national election or a statewide election.

It is one thing to rob one local branch of First Framers Bank and Trust.

Quite another to hack Fort Knox or the entire Federal Reserve System.

As the GOP's election law expert Ben Ginsburg tells us, systematic voter fraud is the GOP's Loch Ness Monster. People have looked hard for it but have never found it. Because it doesn't exist.

So the increased risk to down ballot contests should not be factored into a decision to expand voting via unsolicited mail in ballots ?

Show us the example of sufficiently large scale mail-in voting fraud to impact a down ballot election and how it was actually accomplished...how was it detected?

Yup, not impossible, but any large amount would be caught...

You're now stating opinion as fact.
What amount of election fraud do you deem to be acceptable ?
I included 3 links in my post.

Fraud is not acceptable...we ALL are in favor of detection mechanisms/processes and strict prosecution.

It's just that fraud is really hard to perpetrate on a large scale and not be detected...because the election folks actually care about catching fraudsters, the opposing parties care about not getting screwed, the citizens care about clean elections...

We just went from 5 to 50 states using majority mail in voting. It's too early to declare it acceptable. That's why I continue to say it's best worked out by each state. It does not take a large scale to swing a down ballot contest. We don't know what was not detected. Risk assessment & mitigation.

[CU77]

I list cases that resulted in elections being overturned. That changed the result.

The elections were overturned before anyone took office. That means that the attempted fraud failed.

And you have provided zero evidence that fraud is worse for mail-in ballots.

[MDlaxfan76]

Election fraud definitely can make an outcome determining difference in local races. You can hijack a race for county commissioner.

Which means that what you can't hijack is a national election or a statewide election.

It is one thing to rob one local branch of First Framers Bank and Trust.

Quite another to hack Fort Knox or the entire Federal Reserve System.

As the GOP's election law expert Ben Ginsburg tells us, systematic voter fraud is the GOP's Loch Ness Monster. People have looked hard for it but have never found it. Because it doesn't exist.

So the increased risk to down ballot contests should not be factored into a decision to expand voting via unsolicited mail in ballots ?

Show us the example of sufficiently large scale mail-in voting fraud to impact a down ballot election and how it was actually accomplished...how was it detected?

Yup, not impossible, but any large amount would be caught...

You're now stating opinion as fact.
What amount of election fraud do you deem to be acceptable ?
I included 3 links in my post.

Fraud is not acceptable...we ALL are in favor of detection mechanisms/processes and strict prosecution.

It's just that fraud is really hard to perpetrate on a large scale and not be detected...because the election folks actually care about catching fraudsters, the opposing parties care about not getting screwed, the citizens care about clean elections...

We just went from 5 to 50 states using majority mail in voting. It's too early to declare it acceptable. That's why I continue to say it's best worked out by each state.

"acceptable"???
It works just fine and has for years...care about fraud detection, use the best practices, be vigilant...do it in 5 states, why not all?

No one is suggesting that election officials should stop caring about making sure voting is done cleanly.

But stop with the BS that it's actually a problem and the appropriate response would be to make voting more difficult.

We've seen why those efforts exist...long ugly history.

[CU77]

We don't know what was not detected.

True. I claim that all Republicans won by undetected fraud. Prove me wrong!

Risk assessment & mitigation.

Been done. Kobach's find-the-fraud-in-2016 commission could not find any in Colorado's all-voters-get-mail-ballots system. Or anywhere else.

[old salt]

I list cases that resulted in elections being overturned. That changed the result.

The elections were overturned before any one took office. That means that the attempted fraud failed.

And you have provided zero evidence that fraud is worse for mail-in ballots.

So ordering a new election is not changing the result ? What would Orwell say ?

I'll stick with the Carter-Baker Commissions finding that absentee ballots are more fraud prone.
You do understand that absentee ballots are submitted by mail ?

[old salt]

We don't know what was not detected.

True. I claim that all Republicans won by undetected fraud. Prove me wrong!

Risk assessment & mitigation.

Been done. Kobach's find-the-fraud-in-2016 commission could not find any in Colorado's all-voters-get-mail-ballots system. Or anywhere else.

How many states used majority mail in voting in 2016, compared to 2020 ?

[njbill]

old salt, all of the cases in your links involved proof and prosecution of the fraud allegations.

While, yes, theoretically mail in voting may be more susceptible to fraud, that doesn’t mean it is in actuality.

If there was any fraud in this election, then it must be proved. In a civil case, fraud must be alleged with particularity and proven by clear and convincing evidence.

If there is proof, let’s see it. The burden is on T**** to prove fraud, not on Biden to prove the absence of fraud.

[ggait]

So the increased risk to down ballot contests should not be factored into a decision to expand voting via unsolicited mail in ballots ?

Come on Salty.

We all know that no voting system is perfect. But what we do know (from a LOT of experience and evidence) is that the ability to rig an election is pretty much limited to one district. Like the 2018 congressional race in North Carolina that had to be redone. Which was GOP fraud, by the way.

But what that tells us is that it is basically impossible to rig a statewide or national election.

All of the fraud claims being made by the GOP (Trump, Rudy, Kraken Sid, Smiling Lying Jenna, Whacko Lin Wood) claim systematic fraud on a statewide and multi-state basis. So we know, to a 110% certainty, that those claims are complete and utter horse shirt. The idea that the statewide contest for president in five different states were rigged simultaneously is beyond tin foil hats.

So let's talk about something a little bit more realistic. Do we think that the moon landings were faked inside a TV studio?

If there's a claim about fraud in a particular down ballot race in a particular district, I haven't heard about it. Have you from this election cycle?

[Typical Lax Dad]

So the increased risk to down ballot contests should not be factored into a decision to expand voting via unsolicited mail in ballots ?

Come on Salty.

We all know that no voting system is perfect. But what we do know (from a LOT of experience and evidence) is that the ability to rig an election is pretty much limited to one district. Like the 2018 congressional race in North Carolina that had to be redone. Which was GOP fraud, by the way.

But what that tells us is that it is basically impossible to rig a statewide or national election.

All of the fraud claims being made by the GOP (Trump, Rudy, Kraken Sid, Smiling Lying Jenna, Whacko Lin Wood) claim systematic fraud on a statewide and multi-state basis. So we know, to a 110% certainty, that those claims are complete and utter horse shirt. The idea that the statewide contest for president in five different states were rigged simultaneously is beyond tin foil hats.

So let's talk about something a little bit more realistic. Do we think that the moon landings were faked inside a TV studio?

If there's a claim about fraud in a particular down ballot race in a particular district, I haven't heard about it. Have you from this election cycle?

I haven’t heard of one.

[ggait]

You know what the name is for falsely claiming fraud?

Fraud.

The people obviously committing election fraud are Trump, Rudy and Kraken Sid.

[Typical Lax Dad]

[old salt]

So the increased risk to down ballot contests should not be factored into a decision to expand voting via unsolicited mail in ballots ?

Come on Salty.

We all know that no voting system is perfect. But what we do know (from a LOT of experience and evidence) is that the ability to rig an election is pretty much limited to one district. Like the 2018 congressional race in North Carolina that had to be redone. Which was GOP fraud, by the way.

But what that tells us is that it is basically impossible to rig a statewide or national election.

All of the fraud claims being made by the GOP (Trump, Rudy, Kraken Sid, Smiling Lying Jenna, Whacko Lin Wood) claim systematic fraud on a statewide and multi-state basis. So we know, to a 110% certainty, that those claims are complete and utter horse shirt. The idea that the statewide contest for president in five different states were rigged simultaneously is beyond tin foil hats.

So let's talk about something a little bit more realistic. Do we think that the moon landings were faked inside a TV studio?

If there's a claim about fraud in a particular down ballot race in a particular district, I haven't heard about it. Have you from this election cycle?

Give them time to come forward. These are from just prior to this election.

https://www.heritage.org/election-integ ... l-about-it

I'm not claiming the final result was changed in the national or any particular statewide election.
You keep equating what Trump's lawyers are arguing to what I'm saying.
Prop up that strawman so you can knock it down again.

[foreverlax]

The states I've heard the most complaints about are naturally the close ones -- PA, MI, WI, GA, NV & AZ. In each state the complaints are complex & different.

so what exactly are you concerned about?

Reread the red parts of my reply to afan. Everybody's ignoring the potential impact on down ballot races where fraud & errors can make a difference.

So you are concerned about down ballot - but just in states that Trump lost.

[ggait]

I'm not claiming the final result was changed in the national or any particular statewide election.
You keep equating what Trump's lawyers are arguing to what I'm saying.
Prop up that strawman so you can knock it down again.

So you are saying that you agree with me that Trump, Rudy and Kraken Sid are committing election fraud?

And that their claims, with respect to multiple state-wide contests in the presidential election, are baseless?

And that it is basically impossible to rig any statewide election? Which means that systematic widespread voter fraud does not exist?

If we can agree on those items, then I'm happy to talk about down ballot issues that might occur in single district contests.

Let us know Salty.