LaxPower Back-Up Stick

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:16 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:59 pm

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:55 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:48 pmWho said anything about welcoming Hamas? They have proven, shall we say, to be untrustworthy and irredeemable. No, the offer is for the Palestinian people, most specifically the children...

Not so simple. hamas and palestinians are not the same but most certainly entwined.

Who else should not be welcomed here?

of course palestinians are welcome here. just not in a wholesale way.

What’s the retail way?

one citizen at a time. not an entire nation.

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:23 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:58 pm Don't like my plan? Then what is yours? Keep on keepin' on? I'll pass on that course of action, thank you.

for israel, there are no easy solutions. this will take time. i have thoughts and ideas but i'm not so arrogant to believe that my ideas are better than the people of israel's. they live this situation, they breath it, and they're smart. i trust the people of israel. i don't trust every individual in israel. especially the politicians. i don't trust any politicians. but i trust the people of israel and i trust the universe.

Who said anything about Israel? I am speaking of a solution the US could offer for the conundrum of the fate of the Palestinian people and a place to live. Or are you suggesting that they, Israel, and only they, determine the destiny of Palestinians? Now that would be breathtaking arrogance.

I'm afraid that Israel has had quite some time to propose and implement a mutually (to them and the Palestinian people) agreeable solution. I'm tired of backing an unwilling, unable, or incompetent party. Make the offer to the people (not Hamas, or any other political "leaders"), and let them vote with their feet. No undue influence, no dragooning -- choice by exercise of free will. The costs to the US in terms of cash outlay and international opinion would be small compared to those borne currently.

Remember, no "friends," only "interests." And right now, the United States interests are not well served by the policy of the past 70-odd years re this issue. I like to stop doing things after the first couple of failures.

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:33 pm one citizen at a time. not an entire nation.

Hmm, a nation? What do you mean?

How about as a people? You know, as humans? That work?

Or, do you feel you get to stand in judgement of them individually and determine their worth?

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:14 pm

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:42 pm

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:20 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:49 pm

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:43 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:28 pm...But you must understand that it exists because of foreign invasion and imperialism. After all, if some one broke into your house, usurped and proclaimed it as his own, What the heck would you do? Just sit there and applaud him?...

foreign invasion and imperialism. hahahahah the Jews were living in israel in the same way that the palestinians were living in israel. the brits were the owners of this house that the jews "broke into". not the palestinians. and this happened 75 years ago. israel is a nation. a real nation. a jewish state. get over it. move on.

http://www.thehypertexts.com/Albert%20E ... 0Nakba.htm

yes. einstein and other jews wanted the brits to continue to be the purveyors of israel. it easn't a bad idea. the problem was the large number of (especially post-holocaust) jews that needed somewhere to go and the brits weren't allowing them into israel. this doesn't change anything i said above. again, the house you speak of was the brits, not the palestinians. the jews needed a home. they fought. the brits walked away. the jews/israelis took over. again, the jews and the brits. how does a group of jews wanting the brits to continbue to hold onto and govern the land translate to "some one broke into your house, usurped and proclaimed it as his own"?

Respectfully, this stuff just demonstrates the lack of usefulness of this sort of debate. Israel is a nation, a collection of people under a recognized government, who deserve to be free from harm, to say nothing of the atrocities visited upon them in the last weeks. Palestinians are a people, ill-served by the folks purporting to lead them. But a people nonetheless, with a right of self-determination and everything else that humanity offers. We are in the here and now, whatever happened with Balfour or Abraham or Pharaoh or Moses.

Exactly. Enough with the coulda, woulda, shoulda. What is to be done to further this objective, which should be relatively easy for everyone to agree on: "But a people nonetheless, with a right of self-determination and everything else that humanity offers."?

The US has a lot of space and a need to balance the demographic "books" by means other than "forced birth" mandates. How about we "shut up and put up" and welcome the Palestinian people to join the "United States" and give them territory within the vast Federal holdings? Not as a separate political entity, but as part of the happy, heterogeneous amalgamation that is the US.

Can casinos and subprime lending/credit businesses operate freely in said system? If so let get it going!!!!

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:45 pm

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:33 pm one citizen at a time. not an entire nation.

Hmm, a nation? What do you mean?

How about as a people? You know, as humans? That work?

Or, do you feel you get to stand in judgement of them individually and determine their worth?

Hamas is already standing in judgement of humans. Their techniques are somewhat unorthodox and involve pumping human beings like women, children and old people with lead. That is some kinda judgement there kiddo.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:45 pm Hmm, a nation? What do you mean?How about as a people? You know, as humans? That work? Or, do you feel you get to stand in judgement of them individually and determine their worth?

What the heck are you talking about? yes, one human at a time, one person...

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:33 pm one citizen at a time. not an entire nation.

Like Ireland?

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:43 pm ... a solution the US could offer for the conundrum of the fate of the Palestinian people and a place to live...

The un needs to do a better job managing their role in gaza.in the short term, this is critical. currently, they're delinquent. longer term, other arab nations besides jordan need to take in palestinians. this'll happen. in time. especially after hamas is minimized. hopwfully eradicated.

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:21 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:02 pm ... we're all imperfect and evil can exist among us at times...

If you commit a violent act and feel and express regret, that's not evil. that's a mistake. that is not what were looking at with hamas (who was duly elected by the gazans), some palestinians, and other terrorist groups. evil does not exist under my roof and i'm going to guess it doesn't exist under your roof either. evil is a big word. a terrible word. and it is very real.

And yet, 'evil' competes with 'good' in everyone's heart, nearly every day. We're all capable of doing 'evil' to others, especially in extremis, and typically such acts are self-justified as believing we are otherwise capable of such is more than we wish to face.

I quite agree that Hamas' acts were evil, open and shut, and those who celebrate them are celebrating evil. Sick ideology which we should reject. Full stop.

Obviously, that doesn't mean that the millions of Palestinians who don't celebrate such, are sickened by it, don't deserve support for their own aspirations for happiness. They do...and their subjugation and suppression is also a societal evil.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:48 pm And yet, 'evil' competes with 'good' in everyone's heart, nearly every day. We're all capable of doing 'evil' to others, especially in extremis, and typically such acts are self-justified as believing we are otherwise capable of such is more than we wish to face.

I quite agree that Hamas' acts were evil, open and shut, and those who celebrate them are celebrating evil. Sick ideology which we should reject. Full stop.

Obviously, that doesn't mean that the millions of Palestinians who don't celebrate such, are sickened by it, don't deserve support for their own aspirations for happiness. They do...and their subjugation and suppression is also a societal evil.

bad competes with good. evil is another category (for me). there are selfish people, self-centered people, and then there are narcissists. totally different animal. no empathy, nothing but self. evil is in a similar category.

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:14 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:45 pm

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:33 pm one citizen at a time. not an entire nation.

Hmm, a nation? What do you mean?

How about as a people? You know, as humans? That work?

Or, do you feel you get to stand in judgement of them individually and determine their worth?

Hamas is already standing in judgement of humans. Their techniques are somewhat unorthodox and involve pumping human beings like women, children and old people with lead. That is some kinda judgement there kiddo.

Respectfully, What the heck are you talking about? Who discussing Hamas? Stay on topic, please.

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:22 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:45 pm Hmm, a nation? What do you mean?How about as a people? You know, as humans? That work? Or, do you feel you get to stand in judgement of them individually and determine their worth?

What the heck are you talking about? yes, one human at a time, one person...

You referred to the Palestinians as a nation. I inquired as to what you meant.

So, what do you mean when you object to admitting Palestinians as a collective, in this case as a nation, which clearly they are not a “nation.”

noun
A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
The territory occupied by such a group of people.
"All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out."

So, please clarify your statement.

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:24 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:19 pm who is your Bob Probert, mr Domi?

should be obvious.

Remember him protecting this dude, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Cichocki, in the ahl for a season and guys were terrified of him.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:27 pm So, please clarify your statement.

i'm just saying you can't rubber stamp 2.1 million palestinians.

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:43 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:27 pm "Brits" It wasn't their land to give. We've had all those old "Columbus discovered America" (as if there hadn't been anyone else here before him) arguments in the past but it doesn't quite wash. Aside from all those arguments, the rejected one state solution still stands as it has for the past 60 years. That is why peace doesn't exist there.

if it's not the brits, it's the palestinians, why is it any more the palistinians than the jews or any of the other peoples lving on the land? why is it specifically the palestinians?

hamas is not fighting for rightsg fo the palestinians. hamas' expressed mission is the destruction of israel. that being the case, how is there a two state solution?

You fail to understand that a one state solution is all inclusive. Therefore, no one supersedes anyone else. It's the only solution.

There’s a portion that would be easy to waive in though. 20-45% probably off the break. At least a couple hundred thousand.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:16 pm ...why is it any more the palistinians than the jews or any of the other peoples lving on the land? why is it specifically the palestinians?...

the point is that while the brits were shepherding the area, there were numerous people on the land including palestinians, Jews, and more. But for some reason, you've declared that the land belonged to the palestinians. youre trying to paint a picture where the palestinians are to Israel like the native americans are to america which ias factually untrue. that's my point. which is why I asked, why is it any more the palistinians than the jews or any of the other peoples living on the land? why is the land specifically the palestinians?...

also, a one state solution? after what happened last week you're proposing a one state solution? ok...

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:55 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:48 pm And yet, 'evil' competes with 'good' in everyone's heart, nearly every day. We're all capable of doing 'evil' to others, especially in extremis, and typically such acts are self-justified as believing we are otherwise capable of such is more than we wish to face.

I quite agree that Hamas' acts were evil, open and shut, and those who celebrate them are celebrating evil. Sick ideology which we should reject. Full stop.

Obviously, that doesn't mean that the millions of Palestinians who don't celebrate such, are sickened by it, don't deserve support for their own aspirations for happiness. They do...and their subjugation and suppression is also a societal evil.

bad competes with good. evil is another category (for me). there are selfish people, self-centered people, and then there are narcissists. totally different animal. no empathy, nothing but self. evil is in a similar category.

I hear you. I'm not making such fine distinctions as I tend to think 'evil', like 'good', includes a whole range of possible ways they manifest in us. And these forces compete within us, temptations, impulses, aspirations, whatever... whether we think of this through a religious paradigm or secular morality or biological and evolutionary imperatives. There's a dynamic that includes our capacities to do ill to one another as well as our capacity to sacrifice for others. We have both capacities. And the opportunity to choose. And most of us don't always choose the 'good', even if that's our usual conscious intention.

But sure, some people have great difficulty in even seeing this choice.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 7:16 pm

Baducchi wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:43 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:27 pm "Brits" It wasn't their land to give. We've had all those old "Columbus discovered America" (as if there hadn't been anyone else here before him) arguments in the past but it doesn't quite wash. Aside from all those arguments, the rejected one state solution still stands as it has for the past 60 years. That is why peace doesn't exist there.

if it's not the brits, it's the palestinians, why is it any more the palistinians than the jews or any of the other peoples lving on the land? why is it specifically the palestinians?

hamas is not fighting for rightsg fo the palestinians. hamas' expressed mission is the destruction of israel. that being the case, how is there a two state solution?

You fail to understand that a one state solution is all inclusive. Therefore, no one supersedes anyone else. It's the only solution.

Nirvana, utopia...but unfortunately there's no chance of this happening given the histories of either.