2020 Elections - Trump FIRED

[CU77]

Whether or not that is the case, just what in the hell would it change?

The future. “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

https://iep.utm.edu/santayan/

[Matnum PI]

229-181. 270 to win, 306 projected.

[DocBarrister]

229-181. 270 to win, 306 projected.

California will put Biden and Harris over the top around 2 pm Pacific Time.

DocBarrister

[CU77]

All electoral votes cast exactly as they are supposed to be so far, according to law and the certifications of each state, as validated by the rejection of all court challenges from the trumpistas.

[Farfromgeneva]

But she could’ve made any number of decisions that would’ve led to similar numbers as well.

Unlikely, given comparison countries like Germany.

The problem in the US would have been that not having Trump in charge would not have eliminated the trumpistas, who likely would still have been bleating out virus from their maskless pie-holes.

But I think a death rate twice Germany's (rather that four times, as under Trump) would have been entirely achievable.

What about the part later on in my comment where I said that I believe she (or anyone else) would likely have done much better by not prioritizing certain things Trump did and afford it the appropriate focus and dedication it should’ve have gotten from day 1?

But, to state, as a certainty that the number would’ve been lower is impossible to support. Probability wise, I’d lay odds at the outcome quantitatively was similar under her at something like 5-10%, off the cuff.

I also agree with you that Doc’s comments come from some personal hatred. It’s pretty much impossible at this point to defend the position that Trump did a good job managing and overseeing a response to Covid. And easy to believe that a better set of choices, decisions and actions would have produced a lower mortality total, by how much who knows, but let’s just start at min 15-20% better (so if we’re at like 250k now that means 35-50k less deaths).

Lastly attributing the actions of trump suckers to trump as if he’s conditioned them is wrong in my opinion. He is just a nasty accelerant. They would’ve resisted the mandates and recommendations of a Hillary led effort 14x as much no doubt.

[CU77]

What about the part later on in my comment where I said that I believe she (or anyone else) would likely have done much better by not prioritizing certain things Trump did and afford it the appropriate focus and dedication it should’ve have gotten from day 1?

I agree with that part.

But, to state, as a certainty that the number would’ve been lower is impossible to support. Probability wise, I’d lay odds at the outcome quantitatively was similar under her at something like 5-10%, off the cuff.

Of course certainty is impossible. Your estimate sounds reasonable to me.

I also agree with you that Doc’s comments come from some personal hatred.

Now you're confusing me with someone else! And maybe doc too.

For the record, I don't believe the comments of ANYONE here "come from some personal hatred", least of all Doc.

[DocBarrister]

But she could’ve made any number of decisions that would’ve led to similar numbers as well.

Unlikely, given comparison countries like Germany.

The problem in the US would have been that not having Trump in charge would not have eliminated the trumpistas, who likely would still have been bleating out virus from their maskless pie-holes.

But I think a death rate twice Germany's (rather that four times, as under Trump) would have been entirely achievable.

What about the part later on in my comment where I said that I believe she (or anyone else) would likely have done much better by not prioritizing certain things Trump did and afford it the appropriate focus and dedication it should’ve have gotten from day 1?

But, to state, as a certainty that the number would’ve been lower is impossible to support. Probability wise, I’d lay odds at the outcome quantitatively was similar under her at something like 5-10%, off the cuff.

I also agree with you that Doc’s comments come from some personal hatred. It’s pretty much impossible at this point to defend the position that Trump did a good job managing and overseeing a response to Covid. And easy to believe that a better set of choices, decisions and actions would have produced a lower mortality total, by how much who knows, but let’s just start at min 15-20% better (so if we’re at like 250k now that means 35-50k less deaths).

Lastly attributing the actions of trump suckers to trump as if he’s conditioned them is wrong in my opinion. He is just a nasty accelerant. They would’ve resisted the mandates and recommendations of a Hillary led effort 14x as much no doubt.

If you’re suggesting that I hate Donald Trump ...

... you’re probably correct.

He’s a vile, malignant, racist, bigoted, authoritarian, misogynistic, narcissistic piece of trash. His actions and inactions have killed a quarter million Americans (not my number ... see the Columbia University study I cited). He has tried to subvert American democracy. Trump made white supremacy acceptable. He has separated hundreds of young migrant children from their families. His administration is easily the most corrupt in American history.

Trump is quite simply the worst human being to have ever occupied the Oval Office.

Is Trump a worthy subject of hate?

Hard to say anyone is worthy of hate ... but Trump is more worthy of revulsion and spite than any other president in American history.

DocBarrister

[Matnum PI]

229-181. 270 to win, 306 projected.

240-229. It'll be official soon...

[njbill]

229-181. 270 to win, 306 projected.

California will put Biden and Harris over the top around 2 pm Pacific Time.

DocBarrister

Donald T**** has filed an emergency petition in the Fantasyland Court at Disneyland in Anaheim, California in a last gasp, desperate attempt to garner California’s 55 electoral votes.

The petition has been assigned to Chief Justice Mickey Mouse whose ruling is expected shortly.

[Matnum PI]

Is Trump a worthy subject of hate? Hard to say anyone is worthy of hate ...

Yes and some people are most certainly worthy of hate. One can choose to temper their hate towards someone or something in order to move on with their life etc. But that initial hate is often real, justified, and extremely healthy. Personally, I hate him. He is an undeniably disgusting human being.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Is Trump a worthy subject of hate? Hard to say anyone is worthy of hate ...

Yes and some people are most certainly worthy of hate. One can choose to temper their hate towards someone or something in order to move on with their life etc. But that initial hate is often real, justified, and extremely healthy. Personally, I hate him. He is an undeniably disgusting human being.

+2

[DocBarrister]

Is Trump a worthy subject of hate? Hard to say anyone is worthy of hate ...

Yes and some people are most certainly worthy of hate. One can choose to temper their hate towards someone or something in order to move on with their life etc. But that initial hate is often real, justified, and extremely healthy. Personally, I hate him. He is an undeniably disgusting human being.

+2

Ok then ... glad we can agree on something.

DocBarrister

[Farfromgeneva]

But she could’ve made any number of decisions that would’ve led to similar numbers as well.

Unlikely, given comparison countries like Germany.

The problem in the US would have been that not having Trump in charge would not have eliminated the trumpistas, who likely would still have been bleating out virus from their maskless pie-holes.

But I think a death rate twice Germany's (rather that four times, as under Trump) would have been entirely achievable.

What about the part later on in my comment where I said that I believe she (or anyone else) would likely have done much better by not prioritizing certain things Trump did and afford it the appropriate focus and dedication it should’ve have gotten from day 1?

But, to state, as a certainty that the number would’ve been lower is impossible to support. Probability wise, I’d lay odds at the outcome quantitatively was similar under her at something like 5-10%, off the cuff.

I also agree with you that Doc’s comments come from some personal hatred. It’s pretty much impossible at this point to defend the position that Trump did a good job managing and overseeing a response to Covid. And easy to believe that a better set of choices, decisions and actions would have produced a lower mortality total, by how much who knows, but let’s just start at min 15-20% better (so if we’re at like 250k now that means 35-50k less deaths).

Lastly attributing the actions of trump suckers to trump as if he’s conditioned them is wrong in my opinion. He is just a nasty accelerant. They would’ve resisted the mandates and recommendations of a Hillary led effort 14x as much no doubt.

If you’re suggesting that I hate Donald Trump ...

... you’re probably correct.

He’s a vile, malignant, racist, bigoted, authoritarian, misogynistic, narcissistic piece of trash. His actions and inactions have killed a quarter million Americans (not my number ... see the Columbia University study I cited). He has tried to subvert American democracy. Trump made white supremacy acceptable. He has separated hundreds of young migrant children from their families. His administration is easily the most corrupt in American history.

Trump is quite simply the worst human being to have ever occupied the Oval Office.

Is Trump a worthy subject of hate?

Hard to say anyone is worthy of hate ... but Trump is more worthy of revulsion and spite than any other president in American history.

DocBarrister

No I wasn’t suggesting that, though if you did it wouldn’t surprise me and it wouldn’t move me at all (always disappointing when anyone, myself including, gets to the point of felling hatred towards anyone as a generality, but it happens unfortunately for a plethora of reasons).

I was responding to CU where I was making the simple case that any absolute claim on certainty of an outcome in an alternative scenario and so of course you’re using hyperbole, in a previous comment where Mr Minnesota has gotten so upset with you. But later on in the comment I said I believed that Hillary or any other leader would’ve produced a better outcome with the degree of improvement to be debated.

For me, I knew Trump was a gross fraud from my days in the CMBS and CRE CDO businesses around many people who did business with him in the past and shared his many failures and related stories in those years (among other major and prominent CRE owners/investors, Trump was actually down the list a good bit but usually when discussing the bank lender blacklists that we’re created for a while in the end of the 80s and early 90s due to a host of cowboy investors around NYC defaulting and doing crazy stuff where Trumps names comes up after Macklowe and a few others). Many greater NYC area people like him but most know who he really is and he was never as big as his public persona portrayed. What I didn’t realize until he became president how dirty he could be as a human being to try to scrape any advantage for himself personally. extend and perpetuate whatever lie he’s caught in at the moment, sell out this country in every way imaginable for a buck like a true huckster no different than an old fashioned pick pocket or simple con man in a small town with no allegiance to anything or anyone else.

So I don’t hate him I’m just disgusted and tired of this sh*t and hoping we, really the political class at large but especially my group, bottom out soon and start to rebuild while we flip generationally and avoid giving our hegemony over to anyone else by eating our own.

[DocBarrister]

229-181. 270 to win, 306 projected.

California will put Biden and Harris over the top around 2 pm Pacific Time.

DocBarrister

Donald T**** has filed an emergency petition in the Fantasyland Court at Disneyland in Anaheim, California in a last gasp, desperate attempt to garner California’s 55 electoral votes.

The petition has been assigned to Chief Justice Mickey Mouse whose ruling is expected shortly.

It’s official ... Electoral College has elected Biden/Harris.

As for the Trump suit filed in Disneyland Court ... that would have been so consistent with Trump’s entire campaign to overturn the election and overthrow our democracy, since Disneyland is closed.

DocBarrister

[Matnum PI]

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/12/14 ... al-victory

[njbill]

229-181. 270 to win, 306 projected.

California will put Biden and Harris over the top around 2 pm Pacific Time.

DocBarrister

Donald T**** has filed an emergency petition in the Fantasyland Court at Disneyland in Anaheim, California in a last gasp, desperate attempt to garner California’s 55 electoral votes.

The petition has been assigned to Chief Justice Mickey Mouse whose ruling is expected shortly.

It’s official ... Electoral College has elected Biden/Harris.

As for the Trump suit filed in Disneyland Court ... that would have been so consistent with Trump’s entire campaign to overturn the election and overthrow our democracy, since Disneyland is closed.

DocBarrister

Chief Justice M. Mouse issued a short ruling, rejecting T****’s petition saying it was a Mickey Mouse lawsuit.

[DocBarrister]

But she could’ve made any number of decisions that would’ve led to similar numbers as well.

Unlikely, given comparison countries like Germany.

The problem in the US would have been that not having Trump in charge would not have eliminated the trumpistas, who likely would still have been bleating out virus from their maskless pie-holes.

But I think a death rate twice Germany's (rather that four times, as under Trump) would have been entirely achievable.

What about the part later on in my comment where I said that I believe she (or anyone else) would likely have done much better by not prioritizing certain things Trump did and afford it the appropriate focus and dedication it should’ve have gotten from day 1?

But, to state, as a certainty that the number would’ve been lower is impossible to support. Probability wise, I’d lay odds at the outcome quantitatively was similar under her at something like 5-10%, off the cuff.

I also agree with you that Doc’s comments come from some personal hatred. It’s pretty much impossible at this point to defend the position that Trump did a good job managing and overseeing a response to Covid. And easy to believe that a better set of choices, decisions and actions would have produced a lower mortality total, by how much who knows, but let’s just start at min 15-20% better (so if we’re at like 250k now that means 35-50k less deaths).

Lastly attributing the actions of trump suckers to trump as if he’s conditioned them is wrong in my opinion. He is just a nasty accelerant. They would’ve resisted the mandates and recommendations of a Hillary led effort 14x as much no doubt.

If you’re suggesting that I hate Donald Trump ...

... you’re probably correct.

He’s a vile, malignant, racist, bigoted, authoritarian, misogynistic, narcissistic piece of trash. His actions and inactions have killed a quarter million Americans (not my number ... see the Columbia University study I cited). He has tried to subvert American democracy. Trump made white supremacy acceptable. He has separated hundreds of young migrant children from their families. His administration is easily the most corrupt in American history.

Trump is quite simply the worst human being to have ever occupied the Oval Office.

Is Trump a worthy subject of hate?

Hard to say anyone is worthy of hate ... but Trump is more worthy of revulsion and spite than any other president in American history.

DocBarrister

No I wasn’t suggesting that, though if you did it wouldn’t surprise me and it wouldn’t move me at all (always disappointing when anyone, myself including, gets to the point of felling hatred towards anyone as a generality, but it happens unfortunately for a plethora of reasons).

I was responding to CU where I was making the simple case that any absolute claim on certainty of an outcome in an alternative scenario and so of course you’re using hyperbole, in a previous comment where Mr Minnesota has gotten so upset with you. But later on in the comment I said I believed that Hillary or any other leader would’ve produced a better outcome with the degree of improvement to be debated.

For me, I knew Trump was a gross fraud from my days in the CMBS and CRE CDO businesses around many people who did business with him in the past and shared his many failures and related stories in those years (among other major and prominent CRE owners/investors, Trump was actually down the list a good bit but usually when discussing the bank lender blacklists that we’re created for a while in the end of the 80s and early 90s due to a host of cowboy investors around NYC defaulting and doing crazy stuff where Trumps names comes up after Macklowe and a few others). Many greater NYC area people like him but most know who he really is and he was never as big as his public persona portrayed. What I didn’t realize until he became president how dirty he could be as a human being to try to scrape any advantage for himself personally. extend and perpetuate whatever lie he’s caught in at the moment, sell out this country in every way imaginable for a buck like a true huckster no different than an old fashioned pick pocket or simple con man in a small town with no allegiance to anything or anyone else.

So I don’t hate him I’m just disgusted and tired of this sh*t and hoping we, really the political class at large but especially my group, bottom out soon and start to rebuild while we flip generationally and avoid giving our hegemony over to anyone else by eating our own.

Estimating outcomes in “alternative scenarios” is precisely what much of the science of epidemiology does.

For example, how many person-years of life would have been saved if you had reduced smoking by 10% between 1980 and 1985? Epidemiologists can estimate that.

It’s challenging to estimate how many lives would have been saved if Trump had initiated serious pandemic mitigation measures six weeks earlier and more consistently advocated mask wearing, etc., but it’s hardly impossible. That’s what epidemiologists do. In fact, that has already been done.

There’s an entire field devoted to estimating health outcomes with “alternative scenarios.” That is epidemiology, and that’s why we have epidemiologists.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

229-181. 270 to win, 306 projected.

California will put Biden and Harris over the top around 2 pm Pacific Time.

DocBarrister

Donald T**** has filed an emergency petition in the Fantasyland Court at Disneyland in Anaheim, California in a last gasp, desperate attempt to garner California’s 55 electoral votes.

The petition has been assigned to Chief Justice Mickey Mouse whose ruling is expected shortly.

It’s official ... Electoral College has elected Biden/Harris.

As for the Trump suit filed in Disneyland Court ... that would have been so consistent with Trump’s entire campaign to overturn the election and overthrow our democracy, since Disneyland is closed.

DocBarrister

Chief Justice M. Mouse issued a short ruling, rejecting T****’s petition saying it was a Mickey Mouse lawsuit.

Justice Mouse also described Trump’s brief, filed by Rudy (the Ink-Is-Running) Giuliani, as Goofy, with arguments and legal theories from Pluto.

DocBarrister

[njbill]

[MDlaxfan76]

Is Trump a worthy subject of hate? Hard to say anyone is worthy of hate ...

Yes and some people are most certainly worthy of hate. One can choose to temper their hate towards someone or something in order to move on with their life etc. But that initial hate is often real, justified, and extremely healthy. Personally, I hate him. He is an undeniably disgusting human being.

+2

Ok then ... glad we can agree on something.

DocBarrister

Some of us agree...

That said, "hate" is indeed an energy sapping emotion, often damaging the target less than the one with that emotion.

On that very narrow point, I agree with Joe. However, he offers nothing to the actual discussion of any point made by Doc or anyone else, no refutation or refinement of points made. As CU77 said, just "emoting".

Putting aside Doc's past foibles re transformative Hop classes and other hyperbole re Hop, all of which he takes ample pushback for on that thread , I tend to think that his specifics about Trump are on the edge of 'exaggerated' but for the most part pretty darn defensible. On # of deaths attributable to Trump in specific versus an alternative POTUS, HRC or other, it's obviously an unprovable assertion, yet IMO certainly in the realm of defensible. Personally, I'd say easily tens of thousands of deaths greater than would have been the case with HRC or any of the modern age predecessors...how many tens of thousands?...many...and that's certainly enough to be really, really angry with Trump's leadership and with the many who have enabled and even encouraged his worst instincts...