Progressive Ideology

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RedFromMI
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by RedFromMI »

From a 757 pilot (air freight) and a former B-52 military pilot:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/3 ... n=trending

(posting on DailyKos, and I am summarizing here)

The MAX tends to pitch up when applying power due to more powerful engines and their more forward placement. Upon pitch up the engine cowlings start to generate lift making it worse. MCAS is a software fix for this.

The pilot posting at Kos:
Using a single AOA sensor for something that important seems, well I don’t want to use the word “criminal” and have a team of Boeing lawyers breathing down my neck, but it’s bad. In the airline world we like to have two or preferably three of anything important.
Also, the procedure to fix the problem from the 737 Quick Reaction Handbook has the shutoff of the stabilizer trim (the actual thing being manipulated by the MCAS software) halfway through a checklist.

Another quote:
Just imagine the pilots suddenly fighting a whole handful of airplane that’s trying to pitch nose down while going through a checklist. I like to think I’d figure it out on my own, but in the heat of battle you never know.
This user (Major Kong) has had many dozens of posting on aircraft and pilot operations. All quite informative and easy to read.
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old salt
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by old salt »

Thanks Red. Lot's of good stuff in that Seattle Times article. This was my key takeaway :
Boeing’s safety analysis of the system assumed that “the pilots would recognize what was happening as a runaway and cut off the switches,” said the engineer. “The assumptions in here are incorrect. The human factors were not properly evaluated.”
Boeing assumed the pilots would respond to a MCAS hardover just as they would respond to their standard B 737 emergency procedure for [Stabilizer Runaway] which is probably a memory item that is practiced in simulator training. All Commercial Pilots of autopilot equipped aircraft are trained to recognize runaway nose down trim & respond by disengaging the autopilot & manually controlling the aircraft. Had the Lion Air pilots done that, they could have recovered, just like the crew on the previous flight did (thanks to the intercession of the deadheading pilot riding the cockpit who recognized the situation, interceded & switched off the MCAS switches on the center console).

Boeing's going to get hammered. The changes they are making would have prevented the Lion Air crash. Maybe the Ethopia Air crash as well -- too soon to know. Either the pilot training changes or the engineering changes proposed would likely have prevented Lion Air.

The pilot training changes would not have been that extensive -- just a better systems explanation in the Pilots Manual & a [CAUTION] alert in the Quick Reaction Handbook -- alerting MAX pilots that just overriding the MCAS with the trim switches or manually pushing the yoke forward, does not deactivate the MCAS, which will immediately raise the nose again until deactivated via the switches on the center console. The Lion Air pilots did not recognize that they were fighting with the MCAS & they generated, essentially, a pilot induced oscillation (PIO) as airspeed increased in their descent.

The engineering changes are a fail safe backup to prevent a situation which pilots will have to recognize & properly react to.

Boeing will be in trouble with the FAA for not updating the increased MCAS authority travel range which they incorporated during flight testing.

The fact that the stabilizer jackscrew recovered from the Ethopia Air plane indicated full throw, may call into question why MCAS commanded stabilizer travel was not limited by software.

Boeing is fortunate that the crashes were overseas with international carriers, limiting their liability. They can also cite pilot error, pilot training & maint error on Lion Air. We don't yet know how many of the US air carrier incidents reported to the FAA were similar, but it's possible that the pilot training of the US carriers prevented more crashes sooner.
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old salt
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by old salt »

RedFromMI wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:57 am From a 757 pilot (air freight) and a former B-52 military pilot:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/3 ... n=trending

(posting on DailyKos, and I am summarizing here)

The MAX tends to pitch up when applying power due to more powerful engines and their more forward placement. Upon pitch up the engine cowlings start to generate lift making it worse. MCAS is a software fix for this.

The pilot posting at Kos:
Using a single AOA sensor for something that important seems, well I don’t want to use the word “criminal” and have a team of Boeing lawyers breathing down my neck, but it’s bad. In the airline world we like to have two or preferably three of anything important.
Also, the procedure to fix the problem from the 737 Quick Reaction Handbook has the shutoff of the stabilizer trim (the actual thing being manipulated by the MCAS software) halfway through a checklist.

Another quote:
Just imagine the pilots suddenly fighting a whole handful of airplane that’s trying to pitch nose down while going through a checklist. I like to think I’d figure it out on my own, but in the heat of battle you never know.
This user (Major Kong) has had many dozens of posting on aircraft and pilot operations. All quite informative and easy to read.
Thanks Red. Good stuff from Major Kong. Here's one thing he points out which Boeing may be able to correct in their software change :
For this reason, most heavy jets have trim cutout logic that prevents the stabilizer trim from running opposite the yoke. In the 767, if I’m pulling nose-up, the trim can’t run nose-down. The MCAS however will override this.
The 737 MAX went through extensive flight testing, but this too should have been corrected then. It would have prevented PIO & should be a required design standard in all fly-by-wire flight control systems. This is the classic example of giving the computer more authority than the human.
a fan
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:22 pm Boeing assumed the pilots would respond to a MCAS hardover just as they would respond to their standard B 737 emergency procedure for [Stabilizer Runaway] which is probably a memory item that is practiced in simulator training. All Commercial Pilots of autopilot equipped aircraft are trained to recognize runaway nose down trim & respond by disengaging the autopilot & manually controlling the aircraft.
I don't understand. If SOP is to turn this autopilot off during takeoff---why does the software allow the autopilot to be on during takeoff in the first place?
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old salt
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:36 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:22 pm Boeing assumed the pilots would respond to a MCAS hardover just as they would respond to their standard B 737 emergency procedure for [Stabilizer Runaway] which is probably a memory item that is practiced in simulator training. All Commercial Pilots of autopilot equipped aircraft are trained to recognize runaway nose down trim & respond by disengaging the autopilot & manually controlling the aircraft.
I don't understand. If SOP is to turn this autopilot off during takeoff---why does the software allow the autopilot to be on during takeoff in the first place?
I think they probably engaged the autopilot shortly after takeoff & the MCAS was fine until they leveled off & the MCAS got an erroneous AOA value.
The CVR & FDR analyses will tell us.
6ftstick
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by 6ftstick »

Such sympathy and sensitivity from the queen of liberal Hollywood!

“His sexual needs were his sexual needs, coming from whatever childhood he has or whatever DNA he has," Streisand told The Times. “You can say ‘molested,' but those children, as you heard say [grown-up Robson and Safechuck], they were thrilled to be there. They both married and they both have children, so it didn’t kill them.”

https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainme ... story.html
OCanada
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by OCanada »

Queen If Hollywood. Straw man/person. The list of right wingers with a fondness for underage girls etc last election was far more concerning than I’ll advised rhetoric. And yet right wing ideology was mute
6ftstick
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by 6ftstick »

OCanada wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:06 am Queen If Hollywood. Straw man/person. The list of right wingers with a fondness for underage girls etc last election was far more concerning than I’ll advised rhetoric. And yet right wing ideology was mute
So you agree with Barbara then
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holmes435
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by holmes435 »

If we're saying idiotic things, then you agree with the Catholic Church regarding how it handled molesting little boys?

And no, virtually all progressives and independents and conservatives do not agree with Barbara Streisand.
runrussellrun
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by runrussellrun »

holmes435 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:45 am If we're saying idiotic things, then you agree with the Catholic Church regarding how it handled molesting little boys?

And no, virtually all progressives and independents and conservatives do not agree with Barbara Streisand.
....and you know this how?
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foreverlax
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by foreverlax »

runrussellrun wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:29 am
holmes435 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:45 am If we're saying idiotic things, then you agree with the Catholic Church regarding how it handled molesting little boys?

And no, virtually all progressives and independents and conservatives do not agree with Barbara Streisand.
....and you know this how?
For the same reason that TAATS is a guideline, not a rule.
jhu72
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by jhu72 »

Saw a really interesting TV documentary last night: "One Nation Under Stress". Sanjay Gupta of CNN addressed the issue of stress in the lives of everyday Americans. If you get a chance to see it, it is well worth the time spent to watch it. It should provoke some thought and "ah ha" moments.

One Nation Under Stress
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youthathletics
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by youthathletics »

Also caught it, it was a healthy watch.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
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youthathletics
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by youthathletics »

Uh Oh.....I wonder if this is true.

https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/statu ... 3210608642
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
jhu72
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by jhu72 »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:20 am Uh Oh.....I wonder if this is true.

https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/statu ... 3210608642
If this is true - Charlie Kirk is far from reliable - the mainstream media will cover it. With this report and the Sara Carter report you would almost think the right wing blogosphere realizes the "gloat fest" is over, they need another "big" story.
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holmes435
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by holmes435 »

runrussellrun wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:29 am
holmes435 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:45 am If we're saying idiotic things, then you agree with the Catholic Church regarding how it handled molesting little boys?

And no, virtually all progressives and independents and conservatives do not agree with Barbara Streisand.
....and you know this how?
Because the vast majority of people in American think diddling kids is very, very wrong? I thought that was pretty obvious and didn't need stating.
runrussellrun
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by runrussellrun »

holmes435 wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:05 pm
runrussellrun wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:29 am
holmes435 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:45 am If we're saying idiotic things, then you agree with the Catholic Church regarding how it handled molesting little boys?

And no, virtually all progressives and independents and conservatives do not agree with Barbara Streisand.
....and you know this how?
Because the vast majority of people in American think diddling kids is very, very wrong? I thought that was pretty obvious and didn't need stating.
Just not seeing the twats, fecesbook and quotes from pretend liberals condemning Streisand. They just don't seem to exist. So, it's virtually all......why can't we read or hear folks condemning her? Kinda like roman polanski "not rape rape" and the support harvey weinstein got.

hence, my comment. Unless I am missing those that are condemning her. The Washing balls Post only mentions the director of "Neverland" tweet, but claims the oh so important twatter socialmedia sphere was abuzz with outrage. OK, so include more twats. But they don't
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holmes435
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by holmes435 »

https://www.google.com/search?q=twitter ... el+jackson

There's a ton of people condemning her on all sides, including lots of Hollywood people - a Facebook search yields the same. You just have to dig a little to get out of your media bubble.
runrussellrun
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by runrussellrun »

holmes435 wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:53 pm https://www.google.com/search?q=twitter ... el+jackson

There's a ton of people condemning her on all sides, including lots of Hollywood people - a Facebook search yields the same. You just have to dig a little to get out of your media bubble.
been there, done that. Not finding what you claim. But, you just made my case by stating " you have to DIG for it". If there is so much condemnation, why is it so hard to find?
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holmes435
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Re: Progressive Ideology

Post by holmes435 »

runrussellrun wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:07 pm
holmes435 wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:53 pm https://www.google.com/search?q=twitter ... el+jackson

There's a ton of people condemning her on all sides, including lots of Hollywood people - a Facebook search yields the same. You just have to dig a little to get out of your media bubble.
been there, done that. Not finding what you claim. But, you just made my case by stating " you have to DIG for it". If there is so much condemnation, why is it so hard to find?
It's not hard to find. A search on Google, a search on Twitter, or a search on Facebook brings up tons of stuff. That's what I mean by digging. Doing the bare minimum of work.

There are 9,000 comments alone on her apology statement - https://twitter.com/BarbraStreisand/sta ... 1215002%2F

Here are thousands of tweets condemning her: https://twitter.com/search?q=barbara%20 ... d&src=typd and https://twitter.com/hashtag/barbrastreisand?src=rela

So what you want are for news stories to just show a bunch of tweets from people? Here's one: https://www.instyle.com/news/barbra-str ... -neverland
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