Progressive Ideology

[MDlaxfan76]

Kavanaugh is a Trump-level victory. Not because of who he is, but because of how he won. The left can't win on ideas so they attack, attack, attack and it failed. The left threw everything they had at this one and they STILL lost. Jewish money, absurd protests, one-way moralizing, sex accusers... all their tricks fell short. Democrats are going to get raped at the polls this November.

Jewish money??

Someone's slip is showing.

Usually the white supremacist, KKK-type crowd cloaks their deep-seated anti-semitism by saying "paid for by George Soros" or "international bankers" or some other dog-whistle euphemism. Unusual for them to just come right out and say it. But this is Trumpkin land where there is no shame at all.

[cradleandshoot]

It all makes sense to me now. Those white supremist and KKK folks are actually disguising themselves as ANTIFA people and beating the beejepers out of their fellow right wingers just to make the left wingers appear to be intolerant, belligerent thugs. I should have guessed it in the first place. It was so very obvious what was happening here. boxing1

[cradleandshoot]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... aign-trail Maybe at least a few folks on the Democrat side are waking up to the reality that HRC is about as popular with the American people as a really bad case of the clap. evil1

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... aign-trail Maybe at least a few folks on the Democrat side are waking up to the reality that HRC is about as popular with the American people as a really bad case of the clap. evil1

If the article is accurate, and though obviously the Washington Examiner ain't the Washington Post I have no reason to think it isn't accurate, it sounds like a heck of a lot more than "a few folks".

Seems to me that we saw what happened when the choice was binary between HRC and Trump. She won in populous, urban/suburban areas, but not by enough; and she lost badly elsewhere. She represents the past that lost, not the future that wins.

Lightning rod. They want all of the ethical outrage on Trump and minions; the Clintons greatly muddy that clarity.

And, unlike Obama, her campaign inspired relatively few; certainly liberal white women of a certain age identified heavily, but minority and young voters not so much.

And the energy is all younger. IMO, the Dems made an error in not persuading Pelosi from stepping aside as well. Maybe they will well before 2020.

If all goes as expected the Dem House majority will be much younger, and quite a few have pledged to look to new leadership. Maybe they give her a year.

[MDlaxfan76]

It all makes sense to me now. Those white supremist and KKK folks are actually disguising themselves as ANTIFA people and beating the beejepers out of their fellow right wingers just to make the left wingers appear to be intolerant, belligerent thugs. I should have guessed it in the first place. It was so very obvious what was happening here. boxing1

Huh?

Are you responding to the thread posts above?

You're usually a pretty reasonable fellow cradle, but this one has me scratching my head how the "Jewish money" comment by our resident far-right cat and the responses to that phrase lead you to this post.

Are you just saying that when they get violent the ANTIFA "thugs" are out of bounds in a civil society too?

Pretty sure most of us would agree that violence is the wrong path to resistance of white supremacist hate.

But most of us also have no trouble saying that resistance to white supremacy is not akin to "intolerance" of someone's race or religion. Indeed, most of us would agree that resistance to 'white supremacy' is the moral high ground. ANTIFAs methods, however, lack that moral clarity, IMO.

Where some seem to get confused in Trumpkin land is this whole notion that there is somehow an excuse for white supremacy, anti-semitism, islamophobia, etc, etc. just because the ANTIFA "thugs" are violent in response.

[cradleandshoot]

I guess I have to take your white supremacist comment with a grain of salt. IMO they are a very tiny group of knuckleheads that sure know how to whip up a lot of free publicity. 500 of these jack bang1 wagons can go have a stupid parade and 15,000 media folks and 10,000 counter protesters show up to enjoy the circus. In the middle of the freak parade the worst folks on both sides do their best to beat each others brains in all in the name of not allowing intolerance to gain more traction in the USA. I have said it before, if the media and everyone else would ignore these people, let them have their stupid parade.

When it is all said and done at the end of the day... no one hears what they have to say except them. If the only people there to hear their message is them... then you have effectively beaten them. That approach does not seem very popular with a lot of folks. I guess it is more fun to watch the entire freak show to play out on national TV with countless breathless reporters and hundreds of cameras pointed in everyone's face and those fascinating reports and up close videos of both sides seething at one another in anger, hatred and resentment as they try to beat some sort of sense into the other side. angryfire1 Why would the national media want to miss out on those ratings when they could just as easily choose to ignore them and their message?

Those supremacist freaks get what they want more than anything else... free publicity and national exposure which probably helps more than anything with them getting their message out and recruiting new people. It's a win/win for them all around. bang1

[cradleandshoot]

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/ind ... h_cal.html More people will eventually die until this nonsense stops. Prayer march for peace an order?? I don't know, sounds more like a tempting invite to a street fight... which is exactly what happened. I guess this is what the new incivility looks like. People are no longer satisfied with just yelling at each other argue1 now it is time for beating each other up. boxing1 All of this happening in the name of peace and civility and all that is good and wholesome and what we love about this country.

[Brooklyn]

It all makes sense to me now. Those white supremist and KKK folks are actually disguising themselves as ANTIFA people and beating the beejepers out of their fellow right wingers just to make the left wingers appear to be intolerant, belligerent thugs. I should have guessed it in the first place. It was so very obvious what was happening here. boxing1

Huh?

Are you responding to the thread posts above?

...
But most of us also have no trouble saying that resistance to white supremacy is not akin to "intolerance" of someone's race or religion. Indeed, most of us would agree that resistance to 'white supremacy' is the moral high ground. ANTIFAs methods, however, lack that moral clarity, IMO.

...

And just who are those "thugs"? Very often they are police and government agents:


https://needtoknow.news/2017/08/video-p ... -violence/



You may find a few videos with similar revelations in youtube. It is no small coincidence that Antifa emerged at the same time as Trump entered into the White Wash House. After all, it is his paid agents who are committing much of that violence. By the way, remember COINTELPRO? Put 2 + 2 together and you begin to smell a rat - one created by the right wing.

[MDlaxfan76]

I guess I have to take your white supremacist comment with a grain of salt. IMO they are a very tiny group of knuckleheads that sure know how to whip up a lot of free publicity. 500 of these jack bang1 wagons can go have a stupid parade and 15,000 media folks and 10,000 counter protesters show up to enjoy the circus. In the middle of the freak parade the worst folks on both sides do their best to beat each others brains in all in the name of not allowing intolerance to gain more traction in the USA. I have said it before, if the media and everyone else would ignore these people, let them have their stupid parade.

When it is all said and done at the end of the day... no one hears what they have to say except them. If the only people there to hear their message is them... then you have effectively beaten them. That approach does not seem very popular with a lot of folks. I guess it is more fun to watch the entire freak show to play out on national TV with countless breathless reporters and hundreds of cameras pointed in everyone's face and those fascinating reports and up close videos of both sides seething at one another in anger, hatred and resentment as they try to beat some sort of sense into the other side. angryfire1 Why would the national media want to miss out on those ratings when they could just as easily choose to ignore them and their message?

Those supremacist freaks get what they want more than anything else... free publicity and national exposure which probably helps more than anything with them getting their message out and recruiting new people. It's a win/win for them all around. bang1

You and I clearly agree on what is most fundamentally important in this discussion. We both reject white supremacy ideology and bigotry and we both reject violence from either extreme.

I only mentioned "white supremacist" in the context of a particular poster's actual use of the phrase "Jewish money", as that particular bigotry is a core belief of the white supremacist set ala KKK and innumerable lookalikes. I commented that usually the anti-semitic language is more guarded, using code words that mean the same thing to those who understand their dog whistles.

With regard to the white supremacy movement, unfortunately I think you underestimate their numbers both at the most extreme level of those willing to publicly march and chant hateful rhetoric (and be violent) ... and those who simply think they are 'right' about various issues and are willing to vote and otherwise take action consistent with the goals of these groups. The latter very large group would deny the most hateful bigotry ('I have a black friend'), yet buy into both the underlying bigoted and uninformed assumptions about others, and just as importantly support policies and politicians preferred by the white supremacists.

The organized white supremacy movement is at a 40 year high point in America (thankfully not 100 year!) in terms of #'s of organized groups and participants (this stuff is actually tracked by the FBI and Southern Law Center). And the white supremacist organizations have found a megaphone through social media that is quite influential, some of it highly sophisticated and disguised as simply political speech. I quite disagree as to whether they're being 'heard'. Their reach is huge and their messaging is insidious as it's not revealed to be from orgs many of us would otherwise recoil from.

Beyond the #'s or orgs and their membership, I'd suggest that nativism, racial and religious bigotry, are for the first time in US history rising in political force rather than receding slowly and often stubbornly, but receding. Maybe this will prove to be just an aberration in our historical trend toward a more inclusive, less bigoted society, consistent with founding principles, but that remains to be seen.

So, the question is how best to counter that change in trend line.

I agree with you that the media finds these issues to be ratings catnip. The more outrageous and inflammatory the chants or actions (left or right) the more coverage. But I think it's just wishful thinking to hope that the media will "ignore" the opportunity to highlight the worst among us, again left or right. If it bleeds it leads.

Moreover, as I said above, the primary megaphone for these messages has actually been through social media, preceded by the rise of conservative talk radio.

When Trump emerged on the scene as the master of social media and celebrity, he gave voice to these messages, first with the birther BS and then as a candidate targeting "Mexicans" and Muslims. This megaphone of bigotry is now at a level of credibility and power never before represented in the Oval Office. Even the most 'bigoted' of our prior modern Presidents were restrained and careful in their rhetoric, recognizing the conflict of such with core American principles and indeed they most often advanced those principles from a policy perspective. Not 100% but typically.

What is especially disturbing about the Russian operation was/is its emphasis upon exacerbating these divisions and anger. While the white supremacy movement is far more aligned with the Russian views of race, and the Russians certainly put a disproportionate emphasis upon magnifying the viral spread of white supremacist type messages, they have also sought to inflame the anger of the left to the point of inciting violent response. Then turned around and magnified through social media the outrage in response to such violence. Very sophisticated use of bots as well as trolls, and without transparency as to source.

So, again, how best to be counter a trend line that is currently reflecting a rise in nativism, xenophobia, racial and religious bigotry?

IMO, I think the essential first step is admitting that the issue is real, and the trend line is going in the wrong direction. Take it seriously.
Yes, the % of society that is the most extreme 'out' nut jobs is small (though growing), but their impact is extensive and has real traction.

And getting far more discerning about the insidious messages in our various information sources that seek to influence us to make faulty assumptions about others. Whether that's the channels we watch on TV or listen to on the radio or our social media feeds, we need to question whether the source of the information is actually bigoted and seeking to cause us to buy into their bigotry as well.

We need to demand/regulate to achieve full transparency on the sources of information, especially in our social media.

We need to reward with our votes the politicians who support a more inclusive society yet do so in a way that is welcoming to those who may have felt isolated or threatened by demographic trends. And we need to reward with our votes those who look to find common ground rather than exacerbate sharp divisions.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/ind ... h_cal.html More people will eventually die until this nonsense stops. Prayer march for peace an order?? I don't know, sounds more like a tempting invite to a street fight... which is exactly what happened. I guess this is what the new incivility looks like. People are no longer satisfied with just yelling at each other argue1 now it is time for beating each other up. boxing1 All of this happening in the name of peace and civility and all that is good and wholesome and what we love about this country.

Interesting article; sure looks like the Proud Boys went looking for violence, not 'prayer'...they're pretty forthright in their social media about their intent. It was never about "law and order" or "peace and civility".

This is the extreme, and it's indeed growing.
But I'm even more concerned with the large #'s who don't recognize that they're being influenced.

The propaganda machine is in full swing and there's no significant GOP leadership standing up to it, (though one could argue that Thune and outgoing Flake and incoming Romney stand in moral contrast.) The White House is in full "see, I have a black friend" mode, while inspiring "lock her up" chants about Ford, doubling down on child separations, "Lee was a great general, Lincoln developed a phobia"; Russian social media influence continues unabated and Pence goes on attack because China is targeting counter-tariffs on red states... and on and on. And the GOP machinery is now in full thrall to Trump.

Dangerous moment.
We've had 'worse' moments that we survived, but we don't yet know how this will play out.

[Trinity]

Flake doesn’t count. After he signed off on the limited witnesses whitewash of Kavenaugh we know all we’ll ever need to know. If Thune and Mitt are the bulwark of decency in the GOP, that’s not enough.

[cradleandshoot]

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/ind ... h_cal.html More people will eventually die until this nonsense stops. Prayer march for peace an order?? I don't know, sounds more like a tempting invite to a street fight... which is exactly what happened. I guess this is what the new incivility looks like. People are no longer satisfied with just yelling at each other argue1 now it is time for beating each other up. boxing1 All of this happening in the name of peace and civility and all that is good and wholesome and what we love about this country.

Interesting article; sure looks like the Proud Boys went looking for violence, not 'prayer'...they're pretty forthright in their social media about their intent. It was never about "law and order" or "peace and civility".

This is the extreme, and it's indeed growing.
But I'm even more concerned with the large #'s who don't recognize that they're being influenced.

The propaganda machine is in full swing and there's no significant GOP leadership standing up to it, (though one could argue that Thune and outgoing Flake and incoming Romney stand in moral contrast.) The White House is in full "see, I have a black friend" mode, while inspiring "lock her up" chants about Ford, doubling down on child separations, "Lee was a great general, Lincoln developed a phobia"; Russian social media influence continues unabated and Pence goes on attack because China is targeting counter-tariffs on red states... and on and on. And the GOP machinery is now in full thrall to Trump.

Dangerous moment.
We've had 'worse' moments that we survived, but we don't yet know how this will play out.

Hillarys own comments about this is not the time for civility don't help either. It is not a Republican thing or a Democrat thing at least among the very few leaders left from both sides. It has devolved into a knock out drag out street fight where whatever side busts open the most skulls is the winner. I don't see any people in a leadership mode trying to stop their people from doing this stupid stuff. Someone is going to be beaten to death in the middle of the street to satisfy the aspirations of their respective parties.

That will be such a proud moment for our nation. Every thing that MLK fought so very hard to prevent is now becoming the new normal. You don't agree with the other side... beat them bloody in the street. Shame on all of you right and left wing zealots... you are all an embarrassment to everything you claim to believe in. bs1 The new definition for diversity revolves around beating the crap out of the other side until they come around to your point of view. I served this country so that everybody could have the right to their own opinion. I never believed that in the America I love so much that expressing your political opinions can get your noggin bashed in on the street. I always thought that was the kind of stuff that happened in "other" countries. It certainly would never happen in the land of the free and the home of the brave. As a nation we are becoming our own worst enemy.

[MDlaxfan76]

Flake doesn’t count. After he signed off on the limited witnesses whitewash of Kavenaugh we know all we’ll ever need to know. If Thune and Mitt are the bulwark of decency in the GOP, that’s not enough.

I'd agree that it's far from enough.
All of the machinery and the bulk of the leadership of the GOP are in full thrall to the Trumpists.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/ind ... h_cal.html More people will eventually die until this nonsense stops. Prayer march for peace an order?? I don't know, sounds more like a tempting invite to a street fight... which is exactly what happened. I guess this is what the new incivility looks like. People are no longer satisfied with just yelling at each other argue1 now it is time for beating each other up. boxing1 All of this happening in the name of peace and civility and all that is good and wholesome and what we love about this country.

Interesting article; sure looks like the Proud Boys went looking for violence, not 'prayer'...they're pretty forthright in their social media about their intent. It was never about "law and order" or "peace and civility".

This is the extreme, and it's indeed growing.
But I'm even more concerned with the large #'s who don't recognize that they're being influenced.

The propaganda machine is in full swing and there's no significant GOP leadership standing up to it, (though one could argue that Thune and outgoing Flake and incoming Romney stand in moral contrast.) The White House is in full "see, I have a black friend" mode, while inspiring "lock her up" chants about Ford, doubling down on child separations, "Lee was a great general, Lincoln developed a phobia"; Russian social media influence continues unabated and Pence goes on attack because China is targeting counter-tariffs on red states... and on and on. And the GOP machinery is now in full thrall to Trump.

Dangerous moment.
We've had 'worse' moments that we survived, but we don't yet know how this will play out.

Hillarys own comments about this is not the time for civility don't help either. It is not a Republican thing or a Democrat thing at least among the very few leaders left from both sides. It has devolved into a knock out drag out street fight where whatever side busts open the most skulls is the winner. I don't see any people in a leadership mode trying to stop their people from doing this stupid stuff. Someone is going to be beaten to death in the middle of the street to satisfy the aspirations of their respective parties.

That will be such a proud moment for our nation. Every thing that MLK fought so very hard to prevent is now becoming the new normal. You don't agree with the other side... beat them bloody in the street. Shame on all of you right and left wing zealots... you are all an embarrassment to everything you claim to believe in. bs1 The new definition for diversity revolves around beating the crap out of the other side until they come around to your point of view. I served this country so that everybody could have the right to their own opinion. I never believed that in the America I love so much that expressing your political opinions can get your noggin bashed in on the street. I always thought that was the kind of stuff that happened in "other" countries. It certainly would never happen in the land of the free and the home of the brave. As a nation we are becoming our own worst enemy.

I frankly don't think that anything Hillary says on most any subject is ever likely to "help". This one too.

That said, I think that we hear from top Dems is a call for confrontation not a call for violence.
It's not polite confrontation though, it's in your face confrontation. It does risk civility, but I think we can understand that they see their opponents as having breached all boundaries of 'civility' and are frustrated that their prior restraint was seen by too many as weakness. But it's a slippery slope, for sure.

By contrast, Trump's calls for actual violence during his campaign were unmistakable.
And knuckleheads like the candidate for Gov in PA have latched on to that sort of language and incitement of violence.
It's widespread in the GOP lexicon now.

The only thing I'd take exception to in your post is "The new definition for diversity revolves around beating the crap out of the other side until they come around to your point of view." No one on the left is defining "diversity" that way. Any kind of "diversity".

I think what you're seeing from the Antifa-type extremes of the left is a willingness to confront, including physically, white supremacy, which indeed by definition is the opposite of respect for diversity.

They see white supremacy extremists as much more than "expressing a political view". I think in that respect they're correct.

But I agree with your other points.

[Matnum PI]

Kavanaugh is a Trump-level victory. Not because of who he is, but because of how he won. The left can't win on ideas so they attack, attack, attack and it failed. The left threw everything they had at this one and they STILL lost. Jewish money, absurd protests, one-way moralizing, sex accusers... all their tricks fell short. Democrats are going to get raped at the polls this November.

Bandito, the Dems lost because the GOP has the numbers. They need to convince GOPers to vote with the GOP and they win. But that's an aside. The absurd protests and one-way moralizing are general enough to shrug at. As for the Jewish money and the sex accusers, just so I understand, (1) Why would you choose to say Jewish money? Obviously the money is from numerous different demographics. And, though I highly doubt this is true, even if Jews provided the Dems with the majority of their $, why would you choose to focus on that 51% of the donations? Even if it was 75%, which, again, is not the case, why refer to this money as Jewish money? As others have spoken to, it seems like you're going out of your way to demonize a specific group of people. (2) There's no question that there are Dems that are politicizing Christine Blasey Ford's accusations towards Kavanaugh. And it's gross. Politics is gross. But to refer to the sex accusers as tricks? Though I could be wrong, it seems like you're saying these women, Christine Blasey Ford included, weren't really sexually assaulted. That they're making these assaults up as a Democratic trick. Is this the case?

[holmes435]

Just watch.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Just watch.

I have been following him. I like him.

[cradleandshoot]

Just watch.

that is my kind of politician... love the mans message. It certainly is not mainstream Democrat but he is heart and soul representative of the Democrats that my parents were. How could I ever disagree with a man with an airborne tee shirt with jump wings on it. His credibility factor goes of the charts for this former paratrooper. headbang1

[HooDat]

On the "civility" front, I have been having a relatively long series of discussions with a couple of my kids (one undergrad, one in grad school - both bizarre combinations of liberal and conservative that don't always line up the same way...) as the three of us read Malcolm X's biography (at the behest of the grad student). She in particular thinks that the violence that we are experiencing is just the front of the wave and that things are going to get just as ugly as they did in the 60's - and that body count included: a sitting president, a presidential candidate, MLK and Malcolm X to name a few. I tried, unsuccessfully, to make the point that surely things had to get better soon. That is not how they see it. They think it is going to get a lot worse before it get's better.

[dislaxxic]

Republicans are terrified of the “left-wing mob”: What really scares them is losing

"Protests, even violent ones, are nothing new in America. Trump copped his "I am the candidate of law and order" from Richard Nixon, who basically stole it from George Wallace during an era of political assassinations, urban riots and massive civil rights and anti-war protests. There are plenty of examples of similar political and social upheavals in our past, including a bloody civil war. The "polarization" we are experiencing in our politics is hardly unprecedented.

Considering how outrageous the president of the United States has become and how supine and accommodating the Republicans in Congress have been, these first two years of the Trump administration have been remarkably serene. That's because the supposedly dangerous "Resistance" has actually been feverishly organizing on the ground all over the country to recruit candidates and run campaigns to send Republicans packing. The "angry left-wing mob" isn't running wild in the streets -- it's running for office. That's what's got Republicans shaking in their boots."

..