LaxPower Back-Up Stick

And, to be fair, it may be different for state schools but I am not aware of any differentiation in rules based on state vs private

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:16 am

wgdsr wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:36 pm

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:14 pm We have discussed this ad nauseam over the years. Full scholarships only exist at cocktail parties where parents are bragging to other parents.

Full rides are typically a result of stacked money (academic scholarship given at time of admission + lax scholarship portion awarded by coach).

12.6 scholarships. 45 guys on a roster. Do the math. Full scholarships are fiscally irresponsible.

not true.
academic money can only be coincided with like academic awards to the rest of the school. or they're included as athltetic schollys.
at a place like north carolina out-of-state, even if they give out-of-state academic $$, which i doubt, that's unlikely.
there are places (top places) that full rides happen. i'm not sure if unc is one any longer.

Not true. Money is stackable and academic money does not count toward 12.6 limit IF the student athlete is exempt based on three prong test : 1200 sat (old two part test) 3.5 gpa, or top 10% of class coming out of high school. If they don’t have one of those, then yes academic money counts. If they do, they are exempt and the academic money doesn’t count toward 12.6 limit

I thought that was the initial hurdle to pass the giggle test. But after that, the athlete must be equal academically to non-athletes to be able to stack academic grants on top of athletic scholarships. So, to pick on UNC, since no non-athlete with the above minimum stats is going to be a Morehead scholar, you cannot call an athlete with those minimum stats a Morehead scholar.

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:22 am And, to be fair, it may be different for state schools but I am not aware of any differentiation in rules based on state vs private

I agree. I doubt the rules differ, but many private schools employ a variety of techniques for reducing their sticker prices, including widespread partial merit-based academic scholarships. State schools start with a lower sticker prices and their main discount is for in-state tuition. Parenthetically, I assume it might be easier for a grad student than an undergrad to claim in-state status, but I also assume there is some compliance officer in the athletic department ensuring it is not fraudulent.

44WeWantMore wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:32 am

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:16 am

wgdsr wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:36 pm

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:14 pm We have discussed this ad nauseam over the years. Full scholarships only exist at cocktail parties where parents are bragging to other parents.

Full rides are typically a result of stacked money (academic scholarship given at time of admission + lax scholarship portion awarded by coach).

12.6 scholarships. 45 guys on a roster. Do the math. Full scholarships are fiscally irresponsible.

not true.
academic money can only be coincided with like academic awards to the rest of the school. or they're included as athltetic schollys.
at a place like north carolina out-of-state, even if they give out-of-state academic $$, which i doubt, that's unlikely.
there are places (top places) that full rides happen. i'm not sure if unc is one any longer.

Not true. Money is stackable and academic money does not count toward 12.6 limit IF the student athlete is exempt based on three prong test : 1200 sat (old two part test) 3.5 gpa, or top 10% of class coming out of high school. If they don’t have one of those, then yes academic money counts. If they do, they are exempt and the academic money doesn’t count toward 12.6 limit

I thought that was the initial hurdle to pass the giggle test. But after that, the athlete must be equal academically to non-athletes to be able to stack academic grants on top of athletic scholarships. So, to pick on UNC, since no non-athlete with the above minimum stats is going to be a Morehead scholar, you cannot call an athlete with those minimum stats a Morehead scholar.

i'm not sure what the h.e.l.l. pundit's talking about. maybe he knows one or 2 schools that something similar to this happened. pundit, since you have specific academic #s that qualify, this must be able to google easily and have in nc$$ rulebooks? could you link?

More and More schools are doing sports scholarships on merit. Kid signs a acceptance(sports package) every year. Academic stays same unless you fail to meet GPA. Lots of teams now give a little to most freshman, unless your top 20 kid in country, or that specific schools # 1.If your an impact player more and more sports scholarship money will come his way.

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 8:14 am

44WeWantMore wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:32 am

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:16 am

wgdsr wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:36 pm

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:14 pm We have discussed this ad nauseam over the years. Full scholarships only exist at cocktail parties where parents are bragging to other parents.

Full rides are typically a result of stacked money (academic scholarship given at time of admission + lax scholarship portion awarded by coach).

12.6 scholarships. 45 guys on a roster. Do the math. Full scholarships are fiscally irresponsible.

not true.
academic money can only be coincided with like academic awards to the rest of the school. or they're included as athltetic schollys.
at a place like north carolina out-of-state, even if they give out-of-state academic $$, which i doubt, that's unlikely.
there are places (top places) that full rides happen. i'm not sure if unc is one any longer.

Not true. Money is stackable and academic money does not count toward 12.6 limit IF the student athlete is exempt based on three prong test : 1200 sat (old two part test) 3.5 gpa, or top 10% of class coming out of high school. If they don’t have one of those, then yes academic money counts. If they do, they are exempt and the academic money doesn’t count toward 12.6 limit

I thought that was the initial hurdle to pass the giggle test. But after that, the athlete must be equal academically to non-athletes to be able to stack academic grants on top of athletic scholarships. So, to pick on UNC, since no non-athlete with the above minimum stats is going to be a Morehead scholar, you cannot call an athlete with those minimum stats a Morehead scholar.

i'm not sure what the h.e.l.l. pundit's talking about. maybe he knows one or 2 schools that something similar to this happened. pundit, since you have specific academic #s that qualify, this must be able to google easily and have in nc$$ rulebooks? could you link?

In a former life, I was the head coach of a small D1 start up down south. Private school. If I awarded a kid 10k in lax scholarship money and they also received 10k in academic merit based scholarship money from the school, that 10k in academic money did NOT count toward my 12 unless the student athlete was not exempt. Exemptions were awarded based on high school performance (essential preventing schools from giving a 2.0 high school kid a 20 grand merit scholarship). So, at the time, the NCAA had a three prong exemption criteria. If a student met one of those (3.5, 1200, or top 10%) they were exempt. Again, it was a private institution. Perhaps it is different for public’s. But that was the rule per NCAA when I was coaching. (2005-2013).

It was an incentive for me to recruit kids that were stronger academically and incentive for kids that were borderline to hit a mark (hey, take the SAT again and hit 1200 and we can give you more money. Until then, I need it keep my offer low since you are hitting against my cap for your lax and academics)

Make sense?

One last thing, obviously NCAA rules change. Perhaps it has been altered since I left? But as for if it existed, it did while I was coaching. And last time I checked, I didn’t leave with a “show cause” from the NCAA lol we did it for years and was a great tool for an expensive private school to utilize in recruiting.

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:56 am One last thing, obviously NCAA rules change. Perhaps it has been altered since I left? But as for if it existed, it did while I was coaching. And last time I checked, I didn’t leave with a “show cause” from the NCAA lol we did it for years and was a great tool for an expensive private school to utilize in recruiting.

Great to have you on the forum, Coach!

DocBarrister

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:56 am One last thing, obviously NCAA rules change. Perhaps it has been altered since I left? But as for if it existed, it did while I was coaching. And last time I checked, I didn’t leave with a “show cause” from the NCAA lol we did it for years and was a great tool for an expensive private school to utilize in recruiting.

yes. this is all that we are saying. maybe we're talking past each other. the original school discussed was unc. unc (best to my knowledge and extrapolating a similar school i'm more familiar with uva)... would not allow for merit based money. certainly not at those levels.
regardless, what you're saying you could do there is dependent on what the school allows for merit based aid for their regular student body.
if you qualify for certain merit aid that the rest of the student body does, then athletic money for program is not dinged (and not counted as athletic money scholly). but in the case of unc, not only would those levels not qualify, but without looking it up merit money is probably extremely limited. because they don't need to incentivize great students, they're already applying and accepting.

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 11:12 am

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:56 am One last thing, obviously NCAA rules change. Perhaps it has been altered since I left? But as for if it existed, it did while I was coaching. And last time I checked, I didn’t leave with a “show cause” from the NCAA lol we did it for years and was a great tool for an expensive private school to utilize in recruiting.

Great to have you on the forum, Coach!

DocBarrister

Great to be here, Doc! Much happier being a fan these days. And watching my kids run around! And not having 18 year olds cradling my paycheck

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:56 am One last thing, obviously NCAA rules change. Perhaps it has been altered since I left? But as for if it existed, it did while I was coaching. And last time I checked, I didn’t leave with a “show cause” from the NCAA lol we did it for years and was a great tool for an expensive private school to utilize in recruiting.

Still the same Coach. Different kinds of schools have different financial models. So in D1 mlax, there's more than one way to make a poker hand.

Mid-level academic private schools give out a lot of merit money to strong (but-sub Rhodes Scholar) non-athlete academic students. So some mlaxers can qualify for merit money at schools like Richmond, DU, Furman, Lehigh.

State schools like Stony Brook, UMD, PSU, Albany and Cornell can make good use of lower in-state tuition to recruit kids from their home states. In-state tuition is not as helpful at places like UNC, UVA and UMich since those states are not where the bulk of their players come from.

There's little OOS merit money at the fancy state schools. There's basically zero at UVA (other than the Jefferson) and UNC (other than the Morehead). Unless a lax kid is going to be a Rhodes Scholar (a la Bill Bradley) after undergrad, they are not even close to competitive for a Jefferson or Morehead.

Fancy privates (HYP, Duke, ND) have very ample need-based aid for the kids who qualify. There's some awesome deals available at hose schools for the LI kid whose dad is NYPD or NYFD or works construction.

And then there's the 12.6 schollies (but not available at the Ivies). And unlimited full rides at USMA, USNA and USAFA. But going to school there certainly ain't free.

Because of the 12.6 limit, the various other pots of money available, limited professional playing opportunities, and the overall demos of lax players (generally pretty good students), the money playing field is fairly level. Which is why (unlike other college sports) you see such a variety of strong teams -- Ivies, fancy privates (Duke, ND, JHU, Gtown), fancy publics (UVA, UNC), smaller privates (DU).

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 11:29 am

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 11:12 am

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:56 am One last thing, obviously NCAA rules change. Perhaps it has been altered since I left? But as for if it existed, it did while I was coaching. And last time I checked, I didn’t leave with a “show cause” from the NCAA lol we did it for years and was a great tool for an expensive private school to utilize in recruiting.

Great to have you on the forum, Coach!

DocBarrister

Great to be here, Doc! Much happier being a fan these days. And watching my kids run around! And not having 18 year olds cradling my paycheck

DocBarrister

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 11:29 am

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 11:12 am

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:56 am One last thing, obviously NCAA rules change. Perhaps it has been altered since I left? But as for if it existed, it did while I was coaching. And last time I checked, I didn’t leave with a “show cause” from the NCAA lol we did it for years and was a great tool for an expensive private school to utilize in recruiting.

Great to have you on the forum, Coach!

DocBarrister

Great to be here, Doc! Much happier being a fan these days. And watching my kids run around! And not having 18 year olds cradling my paycheck

You wanted the cradling, it was the turnovers that would get you.

We can agree facts on the ground don’t support the notion of full scholarships are anything but rare. Hopkins gave 2 I am aware of. UVA 1.

Another way schools have competed for out of state students if they are state schools is to charge instate resident tuition to lower costs. Another is to arrange instate residency, I know some state schools have stopped the practice and I don’t know if any still do it

10stone5 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 1:10 am

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 10:14 pm We have discussed this ad nauseam over the years. Full scholarships only exist at cocktail parties where parents are bragging to other parents.

Full rides are typically a result of stacked money (academic scholarship given at time of admission + lax scholarship portion awarded by coach).

12.6 scholarships. 45 guys on a roster. Do the math. Full scholarships are fiscally irresponsible.

So all the above,

and the conclusion is the same as xx number of years
ago at LP,

no such thing as a full ride lacrosse scholarship.

My friend's daughter got a full ride as a goalie at Duke. Definitely not needs-based.

So at public institutions how is 12.6 defined?

Is a scholarship $ amount based on in state or out of state tuition?

At the three private schools my kids went to there were 3 types of aid available, Athletic, Need and Merit, you could combine Merit and Need or athletics and need but not all three and not athletic and need. you take out a pencil and paper and figure out if need + merit is better then merit + athletic. Two schools offered dollar amounts for both athletic and merit while the third offered and one offered percentage athletic based on tuition only mot full cost (room, board and books) + merit that was a dollar amount. Every school does it differently as we learned form talking to over 20 schools and D3 offers no athletic but can put together very nice packages. I do not know how everybody does it but that was what we experienced.

ggait wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 4:41 pm

LaxPundit07 wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 10:56 am One last thing, obviously NCAA rules change. Perhaps it has been altered since I left? But as for if it existed, it did while I was coaching. And last time I checked, I didn’t leave with a “show cause” from the NCAA lol we did it for years and was a great tool for an expensive private school to utilize in recruiting.

Mid-level academic private schools give out a lot of merit money to strong (but-sub Rhodes Scholar) non-athlete academic students. So some mlaxers can qualify for merit money at schools like Richmond, DU, Furman, Lehigh.

Significant academic merit dollars at those schools is largely gone. Most financial aid is now need-based, particularly as you go north. Leigh University in your example, reported for graduates in this cycle that just 6.6% of students received merit aid with an average award amount of $590

39% of the kids in DU's 2019 fall frosh class (521 of 1,337) had no financial need but got merit scholarships. That does not include any athletic schollies.

Average merit schollie was $21k. That's from the Common Data Set.

The DU mlax teamers probably got more $$$ from merit scholarships than they did from lax schollies.

34% of Furman frosh got merit schollies; average merit schollie was $18k.

For a certain band of schools, there's still plenty of merit money (aka "discounts") that is not all that hard to get. But, as noted above, that is not the model for the fancy privates. Pretty much all need aid at Ivies, ND, Duke, Gtown.

Lehigh seems to be moving towards that model -- per their CDS for 2019, 4% of kids got merit money; average is $10k.