Israel and West Bank Settlements

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Re: Israel and Zionism

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Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:01 pm '67? We all know What the heck happened so I assumed you were being rhetorical. After all, Palestinians were not the ones who threw the first shot as you saw from reading my earlier post from Einstein. They have been the victims all along and so many people in the USA disregard them as they were nothing more than a collective pile of dog schitt. Of course, across the world people are understandably sympathetic to then. This is why there are so many pro Palestinians protests world wide.
Oh, I'm aware. This very week, my daughter played in a Palestinian expatriot's home with one of her besties. Pretty sure I'm on point when it comes to their cause. But there's a massive difference between wanting the Palestinians to live a nice life in a safe place.....and the path you want, which is to get rid of the Jewish population in Israel, and replace them with Muslims.
Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:01 pm You never see such massive crowds in support of Israeli Apartheid.
You just said the quiet part our loud, Brooks. You want the State of Israel to go bye-bye.....you're just denying that that's what you want. This is what the hardcore Pro-Palestinians want, but you have to talk to them for about 10 minutes before they'll admit that....couched in soft language that makes it sound like the Jewish people will be accepted and loved in this new world of yours.
Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:01 pm You say one state is not a solution, so what in your imagined and ever so great ingenuity do see as a solution?
Oh, i don't see one in the way that you do....don't see a "solution". That's the point: what you want is a "majority Muslim" Israel that will do what all the surrounding countries have done.....get rid of the Jewish population.

That's your "solution."

As for me? The only thing I can come up with is to funnel billions into Gaza, and make it a regional employment center. That's it. That's all I've got: make Gaza a nice place to live, bringing much (but not all) of the tension to a halt.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Brooklyn »

^repeat repeat repeat


Bigoted Islamophobic recriminations.

Meanwhile, those who know the Bible say something quite different:





comments:


@nancycole-auguste6614
@nancycole-auguste6614
2 hours ago
I really appreciate this report and those views. I have felt so hurt to see people mistreat or abuse other people. Abuse and prejudice is unaccteptable on the face of this earth!!

2


Reply

@halimaissack4719
@halimaissack4719
1 day ago
As a muslim i have so much admiration for this good men

81


Reply


9 replies
@AlOfNorway
@AlOfNorway
6 months ago
Thank god that these people exist. So intelligent and wise, seeing the atrocities in front of their eyes and calling it what it is.

142


Reply


6 replies
@inmyopinion651
@inmyopinion651
7 months ago
I am not Jewish but my understanding of reading the OT was that only the Messiah could call Israel back to the land and they are under judgement still. These guys seem to read it same way I do.

150


Reply


33 replies
@mindyourbeezwax860
@mindyourbeezwax860
7 months ago
As a Muslim it isn’t about the fact these Jews siding up with Islam or Muslims but it’s humanity and teachings of Torah. Teach each other with kindness and don’t take over the land with bloodbath. Now this is a proper Jew sticking up for what’s right




The bottom line is that if people would only adhere to their own Bible, none of this violence would take place.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

tech37 wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:17 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:15 pm
tech37 wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:58 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:13 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:07 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:40 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:14 pm So how many of you on this forum forget this simple fact? Most Muslims deny the right of Israel to even exists. Where is the middle ground to begin in that discussion? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I think Israel has a right to exist. The UN made that decision a long time ago.
I don’t know any muslim personally that feels that way. Do you? How did you come up with “most”?
How about the vast majority?? The next Muslim leader that acknowledges Israel has a right to exist will be the first one that I'm aware of. I'm guessing if your a Muslim who openly supports Israel your life expectancy will diminish rapidly. The UN gave Israel the right to exist as a nation. ]It has all gone downhill from there. If anybody out there sees a light at the end of the tunnel I would hope you would share your optimism. :roll:
So what is YOUR plan, hmm?

How about these questions:

Are the residents of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank humans?

Are they entitled to any rights?

Don’t want to hear about elections and politicians and leaders. Tell me about the humans.
Ha!...such bullsh!t pizza. Aren't you the one always telling us what useless garbage humans are? But now to badger C&S with his understandable POV, you've become some sort of humanitarian? Quite selective on your part, not to mention the hypocrisy :roll:
How about more discussion and less rock throwing?
Better idea...how about you stay out of it ;)

You're awfully selective too about who can and cannot throw rocks :roll:
Really? You read my discussion with Brooklyn?

And no, if you want a private conversation 1:1, take it to PM.

I just think less hyperbole and insults, and more actual discussion makes for a better forum. And I’m going to express that opinion anytime I want.

But isn’t your complaint more of the sort of whiny stuff that the far right spouts about ‘canceling’ whenever they get pushback? God forbid someone speaks up and calls out unproductive behavior. :roll:
Last edited by MDlaxfan76 on Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Brooklyn »

Hawks Are Using Gaza Violence as a Pretext for War with Iran


https://original.antiwar.com/Ted_Galen_ ... with-iran/


The response in the United States to the surge of violence between Palestinians and Israelis holds no surprises whatsoever. The usual bipartisan contingent of pro-war figures in the political arena, the policy community, and the corporate news media presented a predictable narrative from the outset that quickly became dominant. Proponents parroted familiar clichés that portrayed a complex struggle as a stark morality play with nothing but innocent victims on one side and monstrous villains on the other. Typically, President Biden labelled the Hamas attacks as “pure, unadulterated evil.”

Such “logic” leads to the inescapable conclusion that the United States must support Israel enthusiastically and without reservation. The New York Times established the tone in an October 9, 2023, editorial. Members of the editorial board stated that “President Biden is right to express America’s full support for Israel at this painful moment. The United States, as its closest ally, has a critical role to play.”

It is the same script that America’s pro-war elites used with respect to the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo, the two wars with Iraq, and the disastrous meddling by the United States and its allies in Libya, Syria, and Ukraine. The motive is the same as well – to whip-up public support for the client that the U.S. government is backing and visceral hatred for the “aggressor.” Such imagery also is designed to create sentiment in favor of a possible direct U.S. military intervention.

Two dominant themes have emerged from the latest propaganda offensive. One is that the Palestinians are entirely to blame for the bloodshed. To be sure, Hamas contains nasty terrorist elements. Some of the organization’s tactics in the new offensive (especially the taking of civilian hostages, and credible reports of gruesome murders) are reprehensible. However, there is a pervasive unwillingness among Israel’s supporters in the West to concede that the country’s appalling behavior toward Palestinians (especially in Gaza) contributed to the latest outbreak of violence. Yet Human rights advocates have aptly described Gaza as the world’s largest open-air prison.

Severe international sanctions (and possibly a multilateral military intervention) would have occurred long ago, if a country not so favored by Washington had treated an ethnic or religious minority the way that the IDF (Israel’s defense force), police, and other security personnel routinely treat Palestinians in both Gaza and the occupied West Bank. Yet members of America’s hawkish propaganda brigade will concede none of that embarrassing, disagreeable evidence. Instead, they attribute the latest round of violence entirely to Hamas “terrorists” and advocate a draconian Israeli military response that would flirt with committing outright war crimes.

The other, increasingly visible narrative theme is that Iran, using its Hezbollah proxies in Lebanon, has served as the inspirational and logistical godfather for the latest Hamas offensive. Indeed, the dust from the initial Hamas attack had barely settled when the Wall Street Journal’s editors published a high-profile article contending that Iran was the party really responsible for the assault. That narrative was not helped, though, when Israel’s government issued a statement conceding that there was no credible evidence that Tehran was involved.

Such an inconvenient detail has not deterred avid American hawks from continuing to voice that argument. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) and former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley, a candidate for the GOP presidential nomination in 2024, have been especially vocal. It is not a coincidence that many of the proponents of military action against Iran in this case are the same neoconservatives who have been salivating for a U.S. war against that country for years. Indeed, some of them were involved in the dishonest campaign to tar Iraq for alleged involvement in the 9-11 terrorist attacks – an assertion that has been thoroughly debunked. Unfortunately, that lobbying effort was all-too-successful and paved the way for the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein, which unleashed chaos throughout the Greater Middle East. Such hawks are trying to get the Biden administration to go down a similar path with respect to Iran.

We must not allow the same bloody scenario to take place again. Tehran does provide support for Hamas, as one component of a strategy to undermine Washington’s already shaky hegemony in the region. However, it is dangerously simplistic to attribute the latest wave of violence to Iranian machinations. Yet U.S. policymakers appear to be moving in that direction. On October 8, 2023, the Biden administration deployed an aircraft carrier group to the eastern Mediterranean as an emphatic signal of support for Israel. Iran was the only plausible target for that show of force; Hamas has neither an air force nor a navy.

The United States needs to end its rote solidarity with Israel. It is a sad situation when the Secretary of State feels it necessary to delete a bland tweet simply calling for a cease fire in the Israeli-Hamas conflict. In his Farewell Address, President George Washington cautioned his fellow citizens that a “nation which indulges towards another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest.” It was a prescient warning that applies with special intensity regarding U.S. policy toward Israel. Too many American opinion leaders act as though Israel is an integral part of the United States rather than a foreign country with its own biases, interests, and agendas.

Administration officials especially must end any flirtation with the notion of attacking Iran as a response to the violence between Israelis and Palestinians. Venturing down that path will lead only to greater tragedy for all concerned. The last thing that America needs is to launch another bloody, debilitating, unwinnable war.







It is only too obvious that certain pro war right wingers are looking for yet another excuse to foment a profit making war. Let's GTF out of that conflict and all others. Let them solve their own problems. The USA has repeatedly shown that it is incapable of playing world cop or god of the world. More war won't do us a damn bit of good. All it would do is to generate more untaxed profits for the rich.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:33 pm ^repeat repeat repeat


Bigoted Islamophobic recriminations.
So, if all else fails, call someone names, and then act like anyone who doesn't want the Jewish people eliminated is a Zionist.

Nope. Sorry, mate. Take your low rent, low brow toddler tantrum somewhere else. That sh(t doesn't fly with me.


It's like I said at the start: all you have to do is ask reasonable questions of the hardcore Pro-Palestinians.....and this is where it goes. Every time.

Same goes for the hardcore pro-Israel crowd, obviously.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Brooklyn wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:32 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:14 pm

Reminder: I'm not on the "right" as you're calling it, and I certainly don't adhere to strict constructionism, original intent etc, and certainly not the far right's interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (se the podcast I linked on the guns thread yesterday)..

Suggestion: Pay attention to whom you are trying to insult. :roll: ;) :roll:

I have zero desire to enter into any debate with a rabbinical scholar. I am merely observing that the specific interpretations you have presented are tiny minority views in the history of rabbinical midrash and current teaching as well. That's enough for me to dismiss your pronouncements of a singular interpretation as "truth" with "ya und ?" as my Swiss friend would say.

On the Constitutional argument, I hear the argument, but I will again maintain that SCOTUS has never expanded such concerns to our foreign aid support or treaty alliances with other nations. Quite the contrary, those decisions are powers understood to be held by the Legislative and Executive.

And I will again maintain that your desire to expand such as never found any serious foothold in Constitutional jurisprudence and scholarship...makes for good TP, that's all.

Ok, if you fall back position is that there are some small percentage of Jews who are actually anti-zionist and some are not Orthodox, fine by me. Communism, marxism, also have their adherents among a small percentage...indeed, considerable overlap, but we're still talking small.

Finally, I'll cast no broad aspersions on CCNY and its graduates. ;)


What the heck is "insulting" you? Like "rock throwing" that is uncalled for.

Again, not a tiny amount of people but a significant amount. We will never have the actual numbers but large Orthodox anti Israel rallies have appeared in NY and I gave you an organization whose membership is well over 400,000. Kindly stop repeating yourself.

As for jurisprudence, yeah that's too bad that it has not been tested in the courts. But you know how the SC is ~ just another political institution in itself.

CCNY = # 1. No school has ever championed the cause of the poor and under privileged more than it has. Back in the day in New York some folks use to say that there is New York University and Jew York University meaning CCNY because of all the liberal Jews it had so many of whom fought for those in need.
Again, far be it from me to cast any aspersions at CCNY or its grads, indeed I wouldn't at anyone's favorite school. I just wanted to know what you meant; I'm sure there are many CCNY alums who feel similarly, albeit not all who 'judge' such would agree. I put very little stock in the accuracy of Us News, for instance, but they rank CCNY just outside the top 100 national universities, #51 in public universities...and that's a rise in the rankings.

But hey, I love my small college too...

As to insulting, look at what I objected to...I consider it insulting to be lumped with people with whom I disagree rather vehemently.

I think you exaggerate the degree of actual anti-zionism in the overall Jewish community, perhaps conflating those who have empathy for the innocent Palestinians and concern about the policies of right wing Israeli politics. I'm not Jewish, but you can put me in a similar camp among Christians.

I'm quite concerned with the after shocks of the current response, as well as see considerable fault with prior policies that have exacerbated the plight of Palestinians...on the other hand I hold Hamas fully responsible for the atrocities they have committed and the response they have incited. and I hold considerable responsibility as well, not just with Israel, but also the neighboring states who have failed to sufficiently assist the innocents among the Palestinians achieve a measure of prosperity and self-determination through peaceful means.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Brooklyn »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:54 pm

I think you exaggerate the degree of actual anti-zionism in the overall Jewish community, perhaps conflating those who have empathy for the innocent Palestinians and concern about the policies of right wing Israeli politics. I'm not Jewish, but you can put me in a similar camp among Christians.

I'm quite concerned with the after shocks of the current response, as well as see considerable fault with prior policies that have exacerbated the plight of Palestinians...on the other hand I hold Hamas fully responsible for the atrocities they have committed and the response they have incited. and I hold considerable responsibility as well, not just with Israel, but also the neighboring states who have failed to sufficiently assist the innocents among the Palestinians achieve a measure of prosperity and self-determination through peaceful means.

Nope. Not an exaggeration at all. If anything, there probably are far more anti-Zionist Jews though we will never know for sure.

As for civilian casualties, Israel's president is aggravating the problem by suggesting Palestinian civilians are legitimate targets:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-g ... a0c004e2a8

"Civilians In Gaza Are Legitimate Targets"


As Israel engages in a massive air campaign ahead of an anticipated full-scale ground invasion of the Gaza Strip, Israeli President Isaac Herzog said on Friday that all citizens of Gaza are responsible for the attack Hamas perpetrated in Israel last weekend that left over 1,200 people dead.

“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”

When a reporter asked Herzog to clarify whether he meant to say that since Gazans did not remove Hamas from power “that makes them, by implication, legitimate targets,” the Israeli president claimed, “No, I didn’t say that.”

But he then stated: “When you have a missile in your goddamn kitchen and you want to shoot it at me, am I allowed to defend myself?”

At another point in the press conference, Herzog presented a different perspective, saying, “Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children.”

Herzog’s comments follow Israel’s announcement that it had directed the 1.1 million residents of northern Gaza to evacuate, likely ahead of a ground invasion. Israel dropped thousands of flyers over northern Gaza and left voice messages on Friday directing people to leave their homes and flee south.

Human rights groups and the United Nations denounced the evacuation order.

“The United Nations considers it impossible for such a movement to take place without devastating humanitarian consequences,” Stéphane Dujarric, spokesman for the UN secretary-general, said in a statement. “The United Nations strongly appeals for any such order, if confirmed, to be rescinded avoiding what could transform what is already a tragedy into a calamitous situation.”

“Ordering a million people in Gaza to evacuate, when there’s no safe place to go, is not an effective warning,” Clive Baldwin, senior legal advisor to Human Rights Watch, said in a statement. “World leaders should speak up now before it is too late, he added.

Fabrizio Carboni, the Near and Middle East regional director for the International Committee of the Red Cross, said in a statement that both the collective punishment of civilians by Israel and taking of hostages by Hamas are violations of international humanitarian law.





Certainly not a pretty picture. But most certainly not our problem. We have enough here at home.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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Same as it ever was: vast, vast majority wants peace. Small number of wankers on both sides want more death, and they're the ones holding power.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:07 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:54 pm

I think you exaggerate the degree of actual anti-zionism in the overall Jewish community, perhaps conflating those who have empathy for the innocent Palestinians and concern about the policies of right wing Israeli politics. I'm not Jewish, but you can put me in a similar camp among Christians.

I'm quite concerned with the after shocks of the current response, as well as see considerable fault with prior policies that have exacerbated the plight of Palestinians...on the other hand I hold Hamas fully responsible for the atrocities they have committed and the response they have incited. and I hold considerable responsibility as well, not just with Israel, but also the neighboring states who have failed to sufficiently assist the innocents among the Palestinians achieve a measure of prosperity and self-determination through peaceful means.

Nope. Not an exaggeration at all. If anything, there probably are far more anti-Zionist Jews though we will never know for sure.

As for civilian casualties, Israel's president is aggravating the problem by suggesting Palestinian civilians are legitimate targets:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-g ... a0c004e2a8

"Civilians In Gaza Are Legitimate Targets"


As Israel engages in a massive air campaign ahead of an anticipated full-scale ground invasion of the Gaza Strip, Israeli President Isaac Herzog said on Friday that all citizens of Gaza are responsible for the attack Hamas perpetrated in Israel last weekend that left over 1,200 people dead.

“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”

When a reporter asked Herzog to clarify whether he meant to say that since Gazans did not remove Hamas from power “that makes them, by implication, legitimate targets,” the Israeli president claimed, “No, I didn’t say that.”

But he then stated: “When you have a missile in your goddamn kitchen and you want to shoot it at me, am I allowed to defend myself?”

At another point in the press conference, Herzog presented a different perspective, saying, “Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children.”

Herzog’s comments follow Israel’s announcement that it had directed the 1.1 million residents of northern Gaza to evacuate, likely ahead of a ground invasion. Israel dropped thousands of flyers over northern Gaza and left voice messages on Friday directing people to leave their homes and flee south.

Human rights groups and the United Nations denounced the evacuation order.

“The United Nations considers it impossible for such a movement to take place without devastating humanitarian consequences,” Stéphane Dujarric, spokesman for the UN secretary-general, said in a statement. “The United Nations strongly appeals for any such order, if confirmed, to be rescinded avoiding what could transform what is already a tragedy into a calamitous situation.”

“Ordering a million people in Gaza to evacuate, when there’s no safe place to go, is not an effective warning,” Clive Baldwin, senior legal advisor to Human Rights Watch, said in a statement. “World leaders should speak up now before it is too late, he added.

Fabrizio Carboni, the Near and Middle East regional director for the International Committee of the Red Cross, said in a statement that both the collective punishment of civilians by Israel and taking of hostages by Hamas are violations of international humanitarian law.





Certainly not a pretty picture. But most certainly not our problem. We have enough here at home.
I'd asked for a citation for those millions of Jewish anti-zionists..."more than we'll ever know" appears to be your response. Got it.

As to your response to Herzog, I agree; that's an appalling statement, even if it's partially true. But it's akin to saying Jewish civilians should be slaughtered at a music festival to punish them for not overthrowing a right wing government that most of those killed have probably have been trying to do democratically, protests, etc. Stupid and appalling.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by jhu72 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:46 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:37 am
a fan wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:18 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:13 pm
a fan wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:06 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:04 pm



No Israel? I have REPEATEDLY stated that I want a one state solution.

Please read my posts again.
Oh, I read them. What happened 60 years ago-----your words, not mine? 'member the war?

Or more to the point: how many jewish people live in your "0ne State Solutions" in neighboring Egypt or Syria?

Can't answer for either one. Do they claim to be democratic or are they self proclaimed Islamic states?
Next to zero for both.

As for claims of "Democracy.....etc." Irrelevant. The point is, the Jewish people are not welcome in those countries. You are pretending like the Muslims would play nicey-nice if the were allowed power in Israel.

I'm not any happier about this mess than you are. But if the Jewish people in the region laid down their arms? You are hopefully not so far gone to understand that it would take maybe a week or two before they'd be wiped out.

The Iranians, Syrians, and Egyptians have no such worries.

Your "one State solution" would wipe out the last remaining Jewish people in the region, Brooks. You're not being realistic, and you know it.
Israel has always wanted a one state solution. In the last decade or so they have been trying normalizing w several middle eastern states. That is one reason for the attack. They were alerted by Egypt. If they believe it can be done as it appears it can w Egypt and Jordan and developing w the Saudis then i think we can.

Israel has been a nuclear power since at least the 50. Militarily it is difficult to see how they could lose. Asymetric warfare produces strange outputs sometimes. Vietnam comes to mind. We lost

Apartheid produces civilian unrest. So does great disparities in wealth. Both are present there.

Israel broke the truce shortly after state hood as has been breaking it ever since. They began pushing Palestinians off their land ever before statehood. It is long past time to cha ge the trajectory
So that justifies Hamas murdering children and babies?? Why didn't Hamas bring this fight to the Israeli military?? Maybe if you pour enough maple syrup on the problem it will be sweet enough for you. :roll: :roll: :roll: The creep from the creeps is moving even faster than I anticipated.


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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by PizzaSnake »

a fan wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:10 pm
Same as it ever was: vast, vast majority wants peace. Small number of wankers on both sides want more death, and they're the ones holding power.
And here’s the nub: back to representation and “will” of the governed.

Who do the leaders “speak” on behalf of, and how to address simple-minded, non-nuanced consideration of complex topics?

To my eye, humans are pretty basic, emotion driven animals. Or, more precisely, the course of human history as known appears to be driven by unsophisticated motivations, probably exploited by the few in their favor.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by cradleandshoot »

jhu72 wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:27 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:46 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:37 am
a fan wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:18 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:13 pm
a fan wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:06 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:04 pm



No Israel? I have REPEATEDLY stated that I want a one state solution.

Please read my posts again.
Oh, I read them. What happened 60 years ago-----your words, not mine? 'member the war?

Or more to the point: how many jewish people live in your "0ne State Solutions" in neighboring Egypt or Syria?

Can't answer for either one. Do they claim to be democratic or are they self proclaimed Islamic states?
Next to zero for both.

As for claims of "Democracy.....etc." Irrelevant. The point is, the Jewish people are not welcome in those countries. You are pretending like the Muslims would play nicey-nice if the were allowed power in Israel.

I'm not any happier about this mess than you are. But if the Jewish people in the region laid down their arms? You are hopefully not so far gone to understand that it would take maybe a week or two before they'd be wiped out.

The Iranians, Syrians, and Egyptians have no such worries.

Your "one State solution" would wipe out the last remaining Jewish people in the region, Brooks. You're not being realistic, and you know it.
Israel has always wanted a one state solution. In the last decade or so they have been trying normalizing w several middle eastern states. That is one reason for the attack. They were alerted by Egypt. If they believe it can be done as it appears it can w Egypt and Jordan and developing w the Saudis then i think we can.

Israel has been a nuclear power since at least the 50. Militarily it is difficult to see how they could lose. Asymetric warfare produces strange outputs sometimes. Vietnam comes to mind. We lost

Apartheid produces civilian unrest. So does great disparities in wealth. Both are present there.

Israel broke the truce shortly after state hood as has been breaking it ever since. They began pushing Palestinians off their land ever before statehood. It is long past time to cha ge the trajectory
So that justifies Hamas murdering children and babies?? Why didn't Hamas bring this fight to the Israeli military?? Maybe if you pour enough maple syrup on the problem it will be sweet enough for you. :roll: :roll: :roll: The creep from the creeps is moving even faster than I anticipated.


... for all you tough guys who think .... actually who don't think period.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:08 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:15 am
Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:02 am Strange, how certain right wing delusionals demand democracy at home (and even demand the right to keep weapons to insure its continuation), supported invading Afghanistan and Iraq supposedly to promote democracy in those countries, and even applauded the Arab Spring in the old LP. But for some bizarre reason, they hate the idea of democracy in Israel.

Double standards, much :?:
Here I’ll play nice despite the ground rules being otherwise (aka I’ll pull a MD)-don’t really love this guy but he’s a frequent guest on a podcast host in a huge fan of (Russ Roberta, whom ironically I believe is pretty into his faith so Im now curious his view on this subject)

https://www.econlib.org/library/Columns ... cracy.html

Democracy is a Means, Not an End


“The reason democratic nations have personal liberties, property rights, and rule of law is not that they are democracies. Rather, nations that have those things embody the entire package of the Western tradition of good government.”

Everyone loves democracy. Ask an American if there is a better form of government, and they’ll be insulted. You believe in democracy, don’t you? And what exactly is it that you believe in? What people mean by “democracy” is some vague combination of good government, protection of individual rights, extremely broad political participation, and widely shared economic prosperity. One might as well throw in an ideal body mass index and a great latke recipe. It’s all good, but doesn’t mean much, and few people like to think about what democracy really means ...

This is not a call for dictatorship ...

The U.S. is Not a Democracy ...


... democracy’s flaws ...

Now, majority rule is a precious, sacred thing worth dying for ...

The real key to freedom is to secure people from tyranny by the majority, or freedom from democracy. The problem, then, is what Fareed Zakaria has called “illiberal democracy.” The metaphor we use to understand ourselves matters, because it figures in how we try to advise others.
...

The framers of the U.S. Constitution fully recognized that there is nothing, nothing at all, inherent in democracy that ensures the freedom of persons or property. When we advise other nations about how to devise better systems of government, our own historical skepticism about the power of pure democracy can be neglected only at our peril. When we help a developing nation design its government, we need unashamedly to advocate something like the U.S. model. Thomas Hobbes said “Covenants, without the Sword, are but words.” The modern equivalent might be this: “Democracy, without the Bill of Rights, is but tyranny.”



Interesting article. Let's see if I can sum up this long spiel:


''Democracy is a Means, Not an End ... This is not a call for dictatorship ... there is nothing, nothing at all, inherent in democracy that ensures the freedom of persons or property''

This may possibly be true. But then there is no assurance that democracy is going to cause decimation of a people as was suggested before. If Israel had accepted the one state solution, by now Muslims could have been the majority there. But that does not mean that would have caused genocide there. As has been proven previously, history shows that Al Andalus was an empire of relatively peaceful coexistence (op cit). Up to now there has been no solution to the mess in Israel. The principle reason being that it has chosen to disregard its own claims to being democratic. It is tyrannical, bigoted, has imposed Apartheid policies on Palestinians, and has committed all kinds of depredations with our tax dollars. Its supporters happily disregard the pleas of those victims and act as if a great favor has been done to them. This is total insanity.

Your writer has shown that there are flaws in democracy and that it is no guarantee of Paradise. Well, it's humanity so shortfalls are to be expected. But better "democracy" than Apartheid as that is a guaranteed FAIL. The pathetic conditions in Gaza that Israel's defenders have always ignored is something that would never be tolerated anywhere else in the world. Bottom line is that the current crisis could have been avoided had Israel only accepted the one state solution. Their fault, not anyone else's.

Better to offer some solution than none at all. The entire world community united to stop Apartheid in South Africa but applauds it in Israel. That's a disgusting shame.
Wanted to give you some red meat from a guy who can articulate and do so relatively eloquently. Not sure how much I agree but given that I recognize I’ve been running around clothes lining cats around her the last week or two I need to center back to contributing a little. (You can hang for sure which I’ve always appreciated despite vast differences culturally)

I will say, not all actions are better than inaction, which should be recognized as an act itself.

If I offered a solution that was truly abhorrent, you would say that’s better than offering no solution?

*FFG lately around these parts - https://youtu.be/8yW6eEtsZ6o?si=02QD6Itbnf6670SW
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I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

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jhu72
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by jhu72 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:39 pm
jhu72 wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:27 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:46 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:37 am
a fan wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:18 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:13 pm
a fan wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:06 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:04 pm



No Israel? I have REPEATEDLY stated that I want a one state solution.

Please read my posts again.
Oh, I read them. What happened 60 years ago-----your words, not mine? 'member the war?

Or more to the point: how many jewish people live in your "0ne State Solutions" in neighboring Egypt or Syria?

Can't answer for either one. Do they claim to be democratic or are they self proclaimed Islamic states?
Next to zero for both.

As for claims of "Democracy.....etc." Irrelevant. The point is, the Jewish people are not welcome in those countries. You are pretending like the Muslims would play nicey-nice if the were allowed power in Israel.

I'm not any happier about this mess than you are. But if the Jewish people in the region laid down their arms? You are hopefully not so far gone to understand that it would take maybe a week or two before they'd be wiped out.

The Iranians, Syrians, and Egyptians have no such worries.

Your "one State solution" would wipe out the last remaining Jewish people in the region, Brooks. You're not being realistic, and you know it.
Israel has always wanted a one state solution. In the last decade or so they have been trying normalizing w several middle eastern states. That is one reason for the attack. They were alerted by Egypt. If they believe it can be done as it appears it can w Egypt and Jordan and developing w the Saudis then i think we can.

Israel has been a nuclear power since at least the 50. Militarily it is difficult to see how they could lose. Asymetric warfare produces strange outputs sometimes. Vietnam comes to mind. We lost

Apartheid produces civilian unrest. So does great disparities in wealth. Both are present there.

Israel broke the truce shortly after state hood as has been breaking it ever since. They began pushing Palestinians off their land ever before statehood. It is long past time to cha ge the trajectory
So that justifies Hamas murdering children and babies?? Why didn't Hamas bring this fight to the Israeli military?? Maybe if you pour enough maple syrup on the problem it will be sweet enough for you. :roll: :roll: :roll: The creep from the creeps is moving even faster than I anticipated.


... for all you tough guys who think .... actually who don't think period.
Says the FLP liberals guy waving the poms poms for the War in Ukraine.
... you make the point --- you don't actually think. :roll:
Image STAND AGAINST FASCISM
Farfromgeneva
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:55 am
Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 12:40 am How does majority rule suddenly mean the decimation of a people?

Anglo Saxons are the vast majority in the USA. Has this meant the decimation of all else?

No because we have one UNITED States of America. Israel should do the same. See my earlier quote where the government professes to be a "democratic state". Now let's see them practice what they profess to be.
Right. And what's your plan when they wipe out the Jewish population, and install Muslim law, Brooks? Punt? Tell the Jewish people 'sorry about that"?

This is the game the Pro-Palestians play. Dealt with this for over a decade in Ann Arbor. You want to pretend like Hamas and other groups want to give the Jewish population shared power and hugs.

You know better, but you pretend like you don't. So when you mention "60 years ago", you pretend like you don't know what happened in 67.
I think it’s:

Turn out the lights the party is over

Or

Que Sera sera
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Farfromgeneva
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 12:16 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 12:00 pm Israel calls itself a democracy.
So does Egypt. Using your "reasoning", there should be hundreds of thousands of Jewish people living there.

How many live there, Brooks?

I'm well practiced in dealing with the hardcore Pro-Palestinian crowd, Brooks. You can see in their eyes when you ask a few rational questions that they know perfectly well that what they are actually asking is for the Jewish population to "coincidentally" leave the region by fictional peaceful means that don't exist.

I'd love nothing more than for peace to reign in the region. Don't know how to get there, outside of pouring investment into Gaza, and make it a modern safe and secure city .....leading to a two State solution.

I do love your rational, reasonable point that we have been recklessly throwing money at Israel for decades, when we don't have a treaty with them. I agree with you 100% on this point. And yes, this makes it so that some of the blood is on our hands. I agree there, too.

But what you are suggesting isn't a solution. What's more, you're a bright man: you KNOW this isn't a solution.
Better yet people like Trump claim to be democratic but if one believes that they literally have no idea what democracy is. None whatsoever.
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Farfromgeneva
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 2:10 pm
Same as it ever was: vast, vast majority wants peace. Small number of wankers on both sides want more death, and they're the ones holding power.
I ought to be clear this should be Israel’s position.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I826gxc8TvI
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tech37
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by tech37 »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:34 pm But isn’t your complaint more of the sort of whiny stuff that the far right spouts about ‘canceling’ whenever they get pushback? God forbid someone speaks up and calls out unproductive behavior. :roll:
Except that, you're the whiner. Look mdlax, everyone is an adult here and in no need of your mother hen strut. You embarrass yourself.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

tech37 wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 3:38 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:34 pm But isn’t your complaint more of the sort of whiny stuff that the far right spouts about ‘canceling’ whenever they get pushback? God forbid someone speaks up and calls out unproductive behavior. :roll:
Except that, you're the whiner. Look mdlax, everyone is an adult here and in no need of your mother hen strut. You embarrass yourself.
And I'm free to do so! ;)

Of course, I'm actually not at all embarrassed to express my views about unproductive back and forth. Ignore it if you want.

Seriously, I think most on here appreciate constructive discussion of differing views...just don't need the mud.

Especially in threads about war and peace, with hot war occurring, emotions pretty raw.
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