And the next pandemic? Wait another ten?
You chose to join the military, you have chosen to circumscribe your rights.
Is this news to anyone? Seems pretty straightforward. And yes, the NG is part of the military. Period.
And the next pandemic? Wait another ten?
I had NO idea that American conservatives would be telling me that our military personnel don't have to take vaccines if they don't want to.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:12 pmAnd the next pandemic? Wait another ten?
You chose to join the military, you have chosen to circumscribe your rights.
Is this news to anyone? Seems pretty straightforward.
Right. Circumscribe...restrict (something) within limits.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:12 pmAnd the next pandemic? Wait another ten?
You chose to join the military, you have chosen to circumscribe your rights.
Is this news to anyone? Seems pretty straightforward. And yes, the NG is part of the military. Period.
No....i kept your quote to make PizzaSnake's post make sense.DMac wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:57 pmRight. Circumscribe...restrict (something) within limits.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:12 pmAnd the next pandemic? Wait another ten?
You chose to join the military, you have chosen to circumscribe your rights.
Is this news to anyone? Seems pretty straightforward. And yes, the NG is part of the military. Period.
Same people claiming follow orders no questions asked would be screaming about when a soldier followed orders to kill civilians/children. Kent State, anyone?
Yes, the NG is part of the military, period. Part of the part time military who serve maybe forty days a year. It's a side gig and treated as such by most. If needed they're one step ahead of John civilian in military readiness, and most of them would drop the gig in heartbeat if push came to shove. Not the same in many respects.
If you're referring to me as a conservative, a fan, I think you're off the mark.
If you don't have enough combat engineers you have a problem. The same is true for medical people. Your smart guy, you understand what I'm saying. It becomes an issue when a NG unit is called up and is too short handed to be effective.SCLaxAttack wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:32 pm“Critical” MOS? Ouch. If every MOS isn’t critical why do we staff them?cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:26 pmIDK what the rate is for NG soldiers that serve in critical MOS. I understand the situation is different for regular Army and NG. I honestly don't know where the line of demarcation is for RA and NG/AR units.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:06 pmWe're at 98% of active duty that have been vaccinated.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:59 pmThat sounds great in theory. The problem comes when a mission arises and there ain't enough soldiers to effectively complete the mission. Then whatta do?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:17 pm https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-arm ... en-budget/
We can downsize and save on benefits if these guys don’t want to comply.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/vikrammitt ... ation/amp/
Paradigm shift (antiquated term).
https://themilitarywallet.com/join-mili ... ownsizing/
Pretty sure we'll get to over 90% of Guard as well, but time will tell.
Where did that School Closings thread go? You must have been meddling with moderators once again Unbelievable.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:56 pm But I will say there's some truly ridiculously dumb stuff getting spouted on the School Closings thread, so Salty's has some time stiff competition. But yeah, "lab rats" is pretty darn dumb. Which is disappointing, because Salty himself ain't dumb.
I was active duty RA and i never had any problems following orders. i said before when my unit deployed to Panama in 1980, we lined up for all kinds of vaccines to protect us from whatever illness might be lurking over there. Getting vaccinated was never an option for us and nobody refused. It gets a little more complicated for members of the NG. They are called citizen/soldiers for a reason. One weekend a month they do training drills as soldiers. The rest of the month they work their normal jobs. Are you a soldier when you are training or are you a soldier still when your driving a forklift at your day job? I don't know the answer. My belief would be if you are ordered by your chain of command to be vaccinated, then you should be vaccinated. It is not then about about individual rights but what is good for your unit and your fellow soldiers. If your sick and can't deploy, well someone else has to do your job.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:33 pmunderstood...I'm simply saying that while your general point that we may actually need these folks is fair, it's pretty darn clear that active duty folks aren't having much difficulty deciding to follow orders. They're ready...And over 60% of Guard don't seem to have an issue either...and I suspect that if there weren't these other folks trying to stir them up politically, the proportion of vaxxed would be similar to active duty military.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:26 pmIDK what the rate is for NG soldiers that serve in critical MOS. I understand the situation is different for regular Army and NG. I honestly don't know where the line of demarcation is for RA and NG/AR units.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:06 pmWe're at 98% of active duty that have been vaccinated.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:59 pmThat sounds great in theory. The problem comes when a mission arises and there ain't enough soldiers to effectively complete the mission. Then whatta do?Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:17 pm https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-arm ... en-budget/
We can downsize and save on benefits if these guys don’t want to comply.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/vikrammitt ... ation/amp/
Paradigm shift (antiquated term).
https://themilitarywallet.com/join-mili ... ownsizing/
Pretty sure we'll get to over 90% of Guard as well, but time will tell.
tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:43 amWhere did that School Closings thread go? You must have been meddling with moderators once again Unbelievable.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:56 pm But I will say there's some truly ridiculously dumb stuff getting spouted on the School Closings thread, so Salty's has some time stiff competition. But yeah, "lab rats" is pretty darn dumb. Which is disappointing, because Salty himself ain't dumb.
I guess you realized you were the poster who hijacked the thread and caused it to go off rails
Tiptoeing.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:10 am https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pentag ... 021-12-21/
This is the crazy part:MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:13 amTiptoeing.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:10 am https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pentag ... 021-12-21/
But important.
It's indeed very, very dangerous...as the generals in the WAPO article this weekend addressed.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:21 amThis is the crazy part:MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:13 amTiptoeing.Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:10 am https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pentag ... 021-12-21/
But important.
“avoided weighing in on specific scenarios, like a soldier's view of the legitimacy of Biden as president.” Some soldiers may not see him as CinC. That’s Banana Republic territory….wait until “AOC” is elected POTUS in 20 years.
Crisis of Command: The Pentagon, The President, and January 6
One of the most vexing questions about Jan. 6 is why the National Guard took more than three hours to arrive at the Capitol after D.C. authorities and Capitol Police called for immediate assistance. The Pentagon’s restraint in allowing the Guard to get to the Capitol was not simply a reflection of officials’ misgivings about the deployment of military force during the summer 2020 protests, nor was it simply a concern about “optics” of having military personnel at the Capitol. Instead, evidence is mounting that the most senior defense officials did not want to send troops to the Capitol because they harbored concerns that President Donald Trump might utilize the forces’ presence in an attempt to hold onto power.
According to a report released last month, Christopher Miller, who served as acting Secretary of the Defense on Jan. 6, told the Department’s inspector general that he feared “if we put U.S. military personnel on the Capitol, I would have created the greatest Constitutional crisis probably since the Civil War.” In congressional testimony, he said he was also cognizant of “fears that the President would invoke the Insurrection Act to politicize the military in an anti-democratic manner” and that “factored into my decisions regarding the appropriate and limited use of our Armed Forces to support civilian law enforcement during the Electoral College certification.”
Miller does not specify who held the fears that Trump would invoke the Insurrection Act, and he wasn’t asked by Congress. However, it’s now clear that such concerns were shared by General Mark Milley, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as well as former CIA Director and at the time Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. Before Nov. 3, Milley and Pompeo confided in one another that they had a persistent worry Trump would try to use the military in an attempt to hold onto power if he lost the election, the Washington Post’s Carol Leonnig and Philip Rucker reported. “This military’s not going to be used,” Milley assured Pompeo.
After Trump issued a Dec. 19, 2020 call to action to his supporters to come to DC to protest the certification of the electoral college vote on Jan. 6 (“Be there, will be wild!”), “Milley told his staff that he believed Trump was stoking unrest, possibly in hopes of an excuse to invoke the Insurrection Act and call out the military,” and that he sought to stay ahead of any effort by the President to use the military in a bid to stay in office, Leonnig and Rucker write.
Milley, according to multiple reports, “feared it was Trump’s ‘Reichstag moment,’ in which, like Adolf Hitler in 1933, he would manufacture a crisis in order to swoop in and rescue the nation from it.”
The top officials’ fears were warranted: Donald Trump, his close aides and a segment of Republican political figures had openly discussed the possibility of invoking the Insurrection Act or using the military to prevent the transfer of power on the basis of false claims that the election was “stolen.” But the Pentagon’s actions with respect to the National Guard suggest a scenario in which, on the basis of such concerns, a potentially profound crisis of command may have played out on Jan. 6.
Close observers of the events of Jan. 6 have mainly posited two reasons for the delay in mobilizing the Guard. The first explanation is one of bureaucratic failures or managerial weaknesses in the military’s procedures that day. A second explanation is that the military was deliberately serving Trump’s effort to interfere with the election by withholding assistance.
We identify a third explanation: that senior military officials constrained the mobilization and deployment of the National Guard to avoid injecting federal troops that could have been re-missioned by the President to advance his attempt to hold onto power.
With respect to planning for Jan. 6, the publicly available evidence to date very strongly suggests that the senior defense officials’ concerns led them to impose unprecedented constraints on the authorizations and substantive conditions for use of the Guard – Miller admitted as much. Those constraints help explain the substantial delay in sending a first group of Guardsmen to the Capitol. What’s more, the evidence also indicates that the same concerns potentially explain why the Pentagon did not approve deployment of the National Guard in sufficient time – and, indeed, authorized the deployment only after President Trump eventually made a public announcement (at 4:17 pm) that he was not in favor of continued occupation of the Capitol.
This third scenario, if true, raises fundamental constitutional questions about the transfer of power:
Under what conditions might the U.S. military try to subvert the will of the President (even if one ethically agrees with the difficult choices the Pentagon made before and on Jan. 6)?
What information did senior officials have concerning President Trump’s potential use of the military to hold onto power and who else did they believe was participating in such a scheme?
In reply to a request for comment, a Defense Department spokesman stated, “The Department has been transparent with regard to the planning and execution timeline for its response to the events of Jan 6,” and pointed to “the complete timeline” published on Jan. 8. “Given that the events leading up to and including the incident at the Capitol are still under investigation by Congress, it is not appropriate for the Department to comment further at this time,” he added.
What a mysygonistic statement. Do you hate and degrade all women or just Sarah Palin? Why are you so angry and full of hate? Why do you hate women? Have you stopped beating your wife finally? Because you probably don't understand sarcasm.. the font is on.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:07 pm“Over her dead body.”ggait wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:00 pmYeah, it is really outrageous to require a serviceman to step up and take worldwide dose tonumber 9,000,000,001. That's crazy shirt right there!But yeah, "lab rats" is pretty darn dumb.
I mean until we are over 20 years into it and over 1 trillion doses, well you just don't really know...
Thank god people were not this forking stupid back in the 1950s. Because if they were, we'd still be swimming in seas of polio, measles, smallpox, etc. etc. etc.
FYI, the first vax mandate in the USA for servicemen was issued by Gen George Washington in 1777.
When did we become the United States of MAGA Dumb-Fork-istan?
P.S. Even Trump knows enough to get triple vaxed. But Sarah Palin will only take her shot "over her dead body." That's turning the mouth breathing dumb assery up to 11.
One can only dream…
Then again, there's this theory about deployment of the NG by DoD and a potential alternative explanationold salt wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:38 pmExcept the DoD (aka the Pentagon) was dead set against using the NG for crowd control, from SecDef Miller & Gen Milley on down.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:30 amYou're right, this is just "emerging" and is certainly incomplete.old salt wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:31 pm Where's the reference to the Proud Boys ?
Protect who, from who ? I speculated nothing.
I pointed out one plausible alternative to your speculation.
In the USA report, all the committee weasels said was :
The report doesn't identify the recipient of the message or detail why protection would be needed.
Meadows sent the message the day before Trump spoke at a rally near the Capitol...
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 4:57 pmEmail from Meadows saying so.old salt wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:19 pmLink ? Source ? ...plz share this emerging evidence that the National Guard would side with the protesters.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:39 pm And yes, there's emerging evidence that groups like the Proud Boys etc were told that the National Guard would be on their side when it went down. They came prepared for violence.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 497829001/
Testify Mark. Watcha hidin' '?
But yes, protect the "pro-Trump people"...Bannon and Stone were talking with the Proud Boys, that too is "emerging".
Testify Steve and Roger. Watcha hidin' '?
Again, you keep ignoring that I also said that I very much doubt that the NG were actually 'in on' any such plan to side with the Pro-Trump" protestors.
But I do think that the 'plan' was to have the Proud boys types clash with counter protestors, declare a state of emergency and martial law, call in the NG to enforce, and declare the election for Trump. Heck, there's a powerpoint circulated to that effect. Meadows, Reps and Senators, who else was 'working the plan'?
But that doesn't mean the NG was actually on board with any of that. But would they have followed orders?
I don't buy that Miller is 100% straight, but I doubt he was actually complicit, at least not consciously so...hope that's right.
Read the Army report. They questioned using the NG before all police forces were deployed, even as the Capitol was under siege.
Trump was briefed on the pre-planned minimal DC NG deployment by SecDef. Trump questioned it's adequacy. If he was planning martial law. he would have deployed more -- repeating what he did in June -- recall & deploy the entire DC NG, have the Old Guard on alert to deploy from Arlingtion, & preposition the 82nd Airborne right across the river at Ft Belvoir.
THAT is how to enforce martial law & stage an armed insurrection. Trump ordered none of that, but it was well within his powers, had recent precedent, & could have been used as an excuse to protect all of DC & Fed territory, including the Capitol.