JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[MDlaxfan76]

I stand by my statement, Salty.
You prove my point with nearly every post.

[jhu72]

And you're really questioning whether Trump did this?

no I am not questioning whether Trump made the order.

But for that order to have been enacted that quickly - it was known in the chain of command.

More importantly - I was asking a question (or a bunch of muddled questions). The main one being: are they bombing the Kurds? I have no idea what the targets that are listed include. Are they ISIS strongholds? Kurdish pre-schools? I have no idea. I have yet to hear anyone say WHAT the presumed targets are - the only definitive thing I have heard are lists of towns.

I would actually like to know what is happening on the ground and what real experts - not blinded by being overly pro-Trump or anti-Trump have to say on the matter.

They have apparently bombed some bridges that would allow for Kurdish reinforcement, or presumably retreat. But I agree, the info coming out of the area and reported by the MSM is not much. I still believe that Trump will cave under pressure and give the generals what they want.

You might phrase that a little differently as what America's elected representatives in Congress, both sides of the aisle, want. As well as the counsel of the generals.

Instead of what Erdogan and Putin and Assad and ISIS (and Salty) want.

Stop telling me what I want. You are clueless, as to what I want.
If I had my way, we'd had made NE Syria a safe zone/no fly area BEFORE Russia moved in (& likely would have deterred Russia from doing so).

You fools act like we have the leverage of an occupying army. We control no territory. We have a tiny embedded enabler force, operating out of Turkish bases. We didn't make the investment so we don't have a say in the post war settlement, unless we're ready to now send in an occupying force & pick up the tab for reconstruction.

What I don't want is our troops used as hostages in a position where they can't defend themselves.
They should never have been put in that position to start with.
You act as if the Kurds moved in to fight our battle. They were invaded by ISIS. We helped them repel the invader.
They've had ample time to reconcile with Erdogan, just like the Iraqi Kurds did.
They need to let the displaced Syrian Arabs back in. This was inevitable.

Reconcile with Erdogan This guy is just one more authoritarian thug. What does reconciliation with Erdogan look like? I suspect it looks a lot like a Kurdish grave yard. I also suspect we will now have to worry about Kurdish terrorism - the price of our betrayal.

[jhu72]

Stop telling me what I want. You are clueless, as to what I want.
If I had my way, we'd had made NE Syria a safe zone/no fly area BEFORE Russia moved in (& likely would have deterred Russia from doing so).

This is exactly why I'm overjoyed we're getting out of there.

If you ask a military guy what to do, this is what they'll tell you. Move in a larger force with air support------and now Americans are in yet another country that we can never leave.

Hard pass. I don't understand why everyone here isn't happy our men and women are leaving.

The part I vehemently disagree with old salt on is that we have no leverage over Turkey.

Plenty of tools in the toolbox.

We made this choice when we elected not to go into Syria before the Russians did.
We had a chance to help Kurdish NE Syria develop like the Iraqi Kurdistan did (which we successfully departed).
I told you then that we wouldn't have a seat at the table when the Russians, Turks & Iranians began redrawing the post war map.
We don't have any skin in the game, ...except 50 hostage soldiers.
Re leverage -- Turkey's assembling their Russian S-400 air defense system.
We've used up our leverage with Turkey, unless you want to blow up NATO.
Look at our other NATO allies wielding their leverage on Turkey. ...strong letter to follow.

Blow up NATO?? … and exactly who is going to stand by the Turks. What NATO member state? Who will leave NATO because Turkey is booted?

[HooDat]

Turks are bombing the Kurds today.

The GOP Senators are PO'd both because of the move and because he didn't tell them; indeed it's very, very clear they'd advised directly against such a move.

I have seen nothing that shows that the Turks are bombing the Kurds. JHU says they bombed bridges. Perhaps to contain the refugees as they move them back into Syria? I don't know. and Neither do you.

If the Senate and house are so "PO'd" then why don't they declare war? It is THEIR responsibility to do so. But they don't - why? Don't sound PO'd to me about anything other than the fact they can't blame someone else for their MIC pandering.

I am with afan - get our troops out. I will add a "period" at the end of that statement.

[old salt]

Turks are bombing the Kurds today.

The GOP Senators are PO'd both because of the move and because he didn't tell them; indeed it's very, very clear they'd advised directly against such a move.

I have seen nothing that shows that the Turks are bombing the Kurds. JHU says they bombed bridges. Perhaps to contain the refugees as they move them back into Syria? I don't know. and Neither do you.

If the Senate and house are so "PO'd" then why don't they declare war? It is THEIR responsibility to do so. But they don't - why? Don't sound PO'd to me about anything other than the fact they can't blame someone else for their MIC pandering.

I am with afan - get our troops out. I will add a "period" at the end of that statement.

Reports I saw said the Turks are bombing ammo/weapons caches & military fortifications, not civilians, many of whom are fleeing to the south.

[old salt]

I stand by my statement, Salty.
You prove my point with nearly every post.

You have no answers, just critiques.
Erdogan wasn't bargaining. He was giving fair warning to get our troops out of the way.
Trump did not "greenlight" this. Read every WH & DoD statement issued.
SecDef Esper & CJCS Gen Milley were on the ph call with Erdogan.
They concurred with decision to withdraw troops which would in the crossfire.

[old salt]

Turks are bombing the Kurds today.

The GOP Senators are PO'd both because of the move and because he didn't tell them; indeed it's very, very clear they'd advised directly against such a move.

If the Senate and house are so "PO'd" then why don't they declare war? It is THEIR responsibility to do so. But they don't - why? Don't sound PO'd to me about anything other than the fact they can't blame someone else for their MIC pandering.

...just like the bully boy arm chair generals in this forum. Of course, it's not their kid on trip wire duty as a hostage in the crossfire.

[a fan]

You can’t just suddenly betray and abandon a military ally and leave them to annihilation.

Not much of a student of US history, are we?

We do it all the time. All the time.

BTW, care to show me the military treaty we have with the Kurds?

Further, you're using the same reasoning H Bush did in defending Kuwait. We didn't have a military agreement with them, either.

And how did that work out?

U.S. allies all over the world, whether members of NATO or tribal allies in Iraq and Afghanistan, tend to notice such things.

Great. Let them get off their *sses and do their jobs for a change. Send in NATO troops. Or EU Troops.

You're complaining because of the little R by Trump's name. There were consequences that were to be had when Obama pulled out of Iraq. So what? Better than having our people in the line of fire when no other nation in the region is willing to do that. F them, is my answer to that. If it's so important, send YOUR people in harm's way for a change.

[foreverlax]

Turks are bombing the Kurds today.

The GOP Senators are PO'd both because of the move and because he didn't tell them; indeed it's very, very clear they'd advised directly against such a move.

If the Senate and house are so "PO'd" then why don't they declare war? It is THEIR responsibility to do so. But they don't - why? Don't sound PO'd to me about anything other than the fact they can't blame someone else for their MIC pandering.

...just like the bully boy arm chair generals in this forum. Of course, it's not their kid on trip wire duty as a hostage in the crossfire.

These are the best of the best making sure the PWO ISIS don't get away....from here they're back to some other "trip wire duty as a hostage in the crossfire".

If 50 special operators can coach the Kurds in to keeping 10k worth of terrorists in the pen, it's worth it.

[Trinity]

“The Turkish military is about to move into Syria. President Trump allowed this to happen. An ethnic cleansing of our Kurdish allies, a boost to ISIS, and a foreign policy gift to Russia, Iran, & China will be the result. America’s standing in the world will take an immense hit.”

Mike Morell

[old salt]

Turks are bombing the Kurds today.

The GOP Senators are PO'd both because of the move and because he didn't tell them; indeed it's very, very clear they'd advised directly against such a move.

If the Senate and house are so "PO'd" then why don't they declare war? It is THEIR responsibility to do so. But they don't - why? Don't sound PO'd to me about anything other than the fact they can't blame someone else for their MIC pandering.

...just like the bully boy arm chair generals in this forum. Of course, it's not their kid on trip wire duty as a hostage in the crossfire.

These are the best of the best making sure the PWO ISIS don't get away....from here they're back to some other "trip wire duty as a hostage in the crossfire".

If 50 special operators can coach the Kurds in to keeping 10k worth of terrorists in the pen, it's worth it.

That's not what those 50 were doing. They were dispersed in isolated observation posts along the border & patrolling the border zone with the Turks.

They weren't fighting IS, they weren't guarding IS prisoners. They were tethered goats, to stall Erdogan from doing what he's told us he's going to do for the past 11 mos. Thankfully, the CJCS, SecDef & CinC chose not to call his bluff.

[Trinity]

“Despite President Trump’s bluster about ending endless war, he’s not ending anything. Our troops aren’t coming home; a small number were moved so Turkey could escalate the war. And the president has expanded our role in Saudi Arabia and Yemen, and kept us in Afghanistan and Iraq.” Rep Justin Amash.

[old salt]

And you're really questioning whether Trump did this?

no I am not questioning whether Trump made the order.

But for that order to have been enacted that quickly - it was known in the chain of command.

More importantly - I was asking a question (or a bunch of muddled questions). The main one being: are they bombing the Kurds? I have no idea what the targets that are listed include. Are they ISIS strongholds? Kurdish pre-schools? I have no idea. I have yet to hear anyone say WHAT the presumed targets are - the only definitive thing I have heard are lists of towns.

I would actually like to know what is happening on the ground and what real experts - not blinded by being overly pro-Trump or anti-Trump have to say on the matter.

They have apparently bombed some bridges that would allow for Kurdish reinforcement, or presumably retreat. But I agree, the info coming out of the area and reported by the MSM is not much. I still believe that Trump will cave under pressure and give the generals what they want.

You might phrase that a little differently as what America's elected representatives in Congress, both sides of the aisle, want. As well as the counsel of the generals.

Instead of what Erdogan and Putin and Assad and ISIS (and Salty) want.

Stop telling me what I want. You are clueless, as to what I want.
If I had my way, we'd had made NE Syria a safe zone/no fly area BEFORE Russia moved in (& likely would have deterred Russia from doing so).

You fools act like we have the leverage of an occupying army. We control no territory. We have a tiny embedded enabler force, operating out of Turkish bases. We didn't make the investment so we don't have a say in the post war settlement, unless we're ready to now send in an occupying force & pick up the tab for reconstruction.

What I don't want is our troops used as hostages in a position where they can't defend themselves.
They should never have been put in that position to start with.
You act as if the Kurds moved in to fight our battle. They were invaded by ISIS. We helped them repel the invader.
They've had ample time to reconcile with Erdogan, just like the Iraqi Kurds did.
They need to let the displaced Syrian Arabs back in. This was inevitable.

Reconcile with Erdogan This guy is just one more authoritarian thug. What does reconciliation with Erdogan look like? I suspect it looks a lot like a Kurdish grave yard. I also suspect we will now have to worry about Kurdish terrorism - the price of our betrayal.

You & Doc are students of history. Recall when Erdogan was launching military strikes & incursions into N Iraq to go after the PKK.
We conditioned our support of the Iraqi Kurds upon their disarming the PKK & reconciling with both Erdogan & Baghdad.
The Iraqi Kurdish leaders seized that opportunity. They began selling & shipping their oil via Turkey, investment capital poured in from Turkey, the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq became the biggest success of our ME incursion. The Syrian Kurds still have that opportunity, if they follow their Iraqi cousins example. Remember when the Kurds withdrew from Mosul & Kirkuk, returning control to the Iraqi govt, after they did the fighting to expel ISIS.

[old salt]

Stop telling me what I want. You are clueless, as to what I want.
If I had my way, we'd had made NE Syria a safe zone/no fly area BEFORE Russia moved in (& likely would have deterred Russia from doing so).

This is exactly why I'm overjoyed we're getting out of there.

If you ask a military guy what to do, this is what they'll tell you. Move in a larger force with air support------and now Americans are in yet another country that we can never leave.

Hard pass. I don't understand why everyone here isn't happy our men and women are leaving.

The part I vehemently disagree with old salt on is that we have no leverage over Turkey.

Plenty of tools in the toolbox.

We made this choice when we elected not to go into Syria before the Russians did.
We had a chance to help Kurdish NE Syria develop like the Iraqi Kurdistan did (which we successfully departed).
I told you then that we wouldn't have a seat at the table when the Russians, Turks & Iranians began redrawing the post war map.
We don't have any skin in the game, ...except 50 hostage soldiers.
Re leverage -- Turkey's assembling their Russian S-400 air defense system.
We've used up our leverage with Turkey, unless you want to blow up NATO.
Look at our other NATO allies wielding their leverage on Turkey. ...strong letter to follow.

Blow up NATO?? … and exactly who is going to stand by the Turks. What NATO member state? Who will leave NATO because Turkey is booted?

The US. Strategically, Turkey is an asset to the US.
It's stupid to push them into an alliance with Russia & Iran.
EU/NATO is a freeriding parasite (strategically).
We no longer need to protect them from the USSR.

[Trinity]

Gen B McCaffery says we should throw Turkey out of NATO and defend the Kurds.

[jhu72]

And you're really questioning whether Trump did this?

no I am not questioning whether Trump made the order.

But for that order to have been enacted that quickly - it was known in the chain of command.

More importantly - I was asking a question (or a bunch of muddled questions). The main one being: are they bombing the Kurds? I have no idea what the targets that are listed include. Are they ISIS strongholds? Kurdish pre-schools? I have no idea. I have yet to hear anyone say WHAT the presumed targets are - the only definitive thing I have heard are lists of towns.

I would actually like to know what is happening on the ground and what real experts - not blinded by being overly pro-Trump or anti-Trump have to say on the matter.

They have apparently bombed some bridges that would allow for Kurdish reinforcement, or presumably retreat. But I agree, the info coming out of the area and reported by the MSM is not much. I still believe that Trump will cave under pressure and give the generals what they want.

You might phrase that a little differently as what America's elected representatives in Congress, both sides of the aisle, want. As well as the counsel of the generals.

Instead of what Erdogan and Putin and Assad and ISIS (and Salty) want.

Stop telling me what I want. You are clueless, as to what I want.
If I had my way, we'd had made NE Syria a safe zone/no fly area BEFORE Russia moved in (& likely would have deterred Russia from doing so).

You fools act like we have the leverage of an occupying army. We control no territory. We have a tiny embedded enabler force, operating out of Turkish bases. We didn't make the investment so we don't have a say in the post war settlement, unless we're ready to now send in an occupying force & pick up the tab for reconstruction.

What I don't want is our troops used as hostages in a position where they can't defend themselves.
They should never have been put in that position to start with.
You act as if the Kurds moved in to fight our battle. They were invaded by ISIS. We helped them repel the invader.
They've had ample time to reconcile with Erdogan, just like the Iraqi Kurds did.
They need to let the displaced Syrian Arabs back in. This was inevitable.

Reconcile with Erdogan This guy is just one more authoritarian thug. What does reconciliation with Erdogan look like? I suspect it looks a lot like a Kurdish grave yard. I also suspect we will now have to worry about Kurdish terrorism - the price of our betrayal.

You & Doc are students of history. Recall when Erdogan was launching military strikes & incursions into N Iraq to go after the PKK.
We conditioned our support of the Iraqi Kurds upon their disarming the PKK & reconciling with both Erdogan & Baghdad.
The Iraqi Kurdish leaders seized that opportunity. They began selling & shipping their oil via Turkey, investment capital poured in from Turkey, the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq became the biggest success of our ME incursion. The Syrian Kurds still have that opportunity, if they follow their Iraqi cousins example. Remember when the Kurds withdrew from Mosul & Kirkuk, returning control to the Iraqi govt, after they did the fighting to expel ISIS.

Your such a student of history. You recall why Turkey did that. Turkey wanted to give them a home in Iraqi so they wouldn't demand a home in their traditional range in Syria, Turkey and Iraq. Lots of Indians on reservations.

[a fan]

It's stupid to push them into an alliance with Russia & Iran.

Horse left that barn the instant they bought weapons from Russia. No turning back now.

[jhu72]

Stop telling me what I want. You are clueless, as to what I want.
If I had my way, we'd had made NE Syria a safe zone/no fly area BEFORE Russia moved in (& likely would have deterred Russia from doing so).

This is exactly why I'm overjoyed we're getting out of there.

If you ask a military guy what to do, this is what they'll tell you. Move in a larger force with air support------and now Americans are in yet another country that we can never leave.

Hard pass. I don't understand why everyone here isn't happy our men and women are leaving.

The part I vehemently disagree with old salt on is that we have no leverage over Turkey.

Plenty of tools in the toolbox.

We made this choice when we elected not to go into Syria before the Russians did.
We had a chance to help Kurdish NE Syria develop like the Iraqi Kurdistan did (which we successfully departed).
I told you then that we wouldn't have a seat at the table when the Russians, Turks & Iranians began redrawing the post war map.
We don't have any skin in the game, ...except 50 hostage soldiers.
Re leverage -- Turkey's assembling their Russian S-400 air defense system.
We've used up our leverage with Turkey, unless you want to blow up NATO.
Look at our other NATO allies wielding their leverage on Turkey. ...strong letter to follow.

Blow up NATO?? … and exactly who is going to stand by the Turks. What NATO member state? Who will leave NATO because Turkey is booted?

The US. Strategically, Turkey is an asset to the US.
It's stupid to push them into an alliance with Russia & Iran.
EU/NATO is a freeriding parasite (strategically).
We no longer need to protect them from the USSR.

They have already withdrawn from NATO. So if NATO is so useless, why should we care if Turkey is in or out?

[Trinity]

Asked about the Kurds, President Trump said that the Kurds did not help the US during WWII or in the Normandy invasion/ D-Day

[jhu72]

Asked about the Kurds, President Trump said that the Kurds did not help the US during WWII or in the Normandy invasion/ D-Day

A VDH response.