LaxPower Back-Up Stick

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:07 pm

OCanada wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 7:43 pm The Atlantic has an article on why so many people were so wrong on this conflict invluding here. eg not paying attention go the corruption in the Russian military

https://apple.news/AS2w01R8OT7KNT4gkJHv37w

In the last year Russia has increased its presence by 0.01%

Who here was "wrong on this conflict" ? Specifics plz ?
Show us their words from Feb/Mar 2022 in this thread,

Paywall on that article. If it's worth posting, have the courtesy to cut & paste it for non-subscribers.

obtw -- F-16's for Ukraine
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine ... ly-2024-10

Ukrainian F-16 fighter pilots have had to dramatically change the way they fly after long flying Soviet jets, and it's a lot to overcome

Ukraine's F-16 pilots have had to quickly get up to speed on a different fighter jet.
They're being trained to fly a new plane but also to break habits from flying Soviet jets.
An air-warfare expert says changing the pilots' muscle memory and reactions to crises is difficult.

Ukraine's F-16 pilots have had to dramatically change the way they fly in a very short period of time in order to fight Russia, and it's a tremendous challenge for pilots when they're under pressure, an air-warfare expert told Business Insider.

Michael Bohnert, an engineer at the RAND Corporation, told BI the big changes Ukrainian pilots have had to make so quickly made it difficult for them to overcome old habits and muscle memory in a crisis.

Ukrainian pilots were given roughly nine months of training in the US and some European countries, while most Western pilots are given three years to learn the jets, The Associated Press reported.

And more broadly, Ukraine's air force is having to rapidly undergo a wider transition that its international partners took significantly longer to do. Across the board, Ukraine's military has had to adapt to new weapons and fighting styles on wild timelines, and the results have been mixed. It's far from an easy task, and in a fight, it's easiest to revert to what you know best.

Before the F-16s first arrived in Ukraine in August, the country's fighter fleet consisted only of much older, Soviet-era aircraft. Those older jets have hydraulic systems, while F-16 jets are fly-by-wire, which means computers process the input by pilots.

"What it means is that F-16s are not just more maneuverable, they're more responsive," Bohnert said.

"And transitioning pilots from the older to the newer is a problem because you can teach someone to fly a plane in six months to a year. But to teach them that muscle memory to know what to do when something goes wrong takes four or five, six, takes many more years," Bohnert said.

He said it was difficult for pilots to retrain on such radically different jet types because "if something's going wrong, your muscle memory reverts back to something that's older."

It could be overcome with more and more time on simulators, he added — but Ukraine's military doesn't have much time to spare.

A challenging task for Ukraine's pilots
Ukrainian pilots have praised the combat power of their new F-16s compared with the older jets but have also noted how big a transition they've been.

Ukraine isn't flying the most dangerous missions with its F-16s because the pilots are still new to the fighter, US general says
The old F-16s the West is giving Ukraine can't outmatch Russia's best jets, former US general says

A Ukrainian pilot with the call sign "Moonfish" earlier this year called it "a really awesome jet to fly," saying it was much easier. He compared the change to upgrading from a basic phone like a Nokia "straight to an iPhone, without all those steps in between."

In an interview with Politico, Tom Richter, a former US Marine pilot who flew F-16s for the National Guard, called the jet "a sensitive beast" compared with Ukraine's Soviet-era aircraft.

The reality that Ukrainian pilots are new to F-16s was acknowledged by Gen. James Hecker, commander of US Air Forces in Europe and NATO Allied Air Command, in September when he said Ukraine was not using the jets for the riskiest types of missions because "the pilots are new to it."

A Ukrainian air force F-16 fighter jet in an undisclosed location in Ukraine. AP Photo/Efrem Lukatsky
Two American air-warfare experts said in July that the transition to F-16s and the integration of these weapons into the combat operations of the Ukrainian military required Ukraine to overhaul decades of Soviet doctrine and training.

"Old habits die hard. They must be willing to embrace new concepts and training — as well as a willingness to 'rewrite the books' on military employment," the Mitchell Institute's David Deptula and Christopher Bowie wrote in a report this past summer.

Changes in militaries don't usually happen overnight. Bohnert noted that the transition to fly-by-wire aircraft took years for Western air forces and "there were still accidents and unhappiness." The Ukrainians don't have that kind of time, though, and are under much greater pressure to adapt much faster.

And Ukrainian pilots have risen to that great challenge. An internal US Air Force assessment from last year said two Ukrainian pilots proved they could complete the training for the F-16 in just four months — more than four times as fast as what the Pentagon had predicted.

But as former US military pilots warned in interviews with BI in April, the contested skies above Ukraine will be the most dangerous battlefield that F-16s have ever faced.

Though causes remain unknown, Bohnert said inexperience on the new fighter jet might have been a factor when an F-16 crashed in August while defending against a Russian attack. In that fatal incident, both the jet and Ukrainian Air Force pilot Oleksiy Mes were lost.

The loss could have also been the result of a mechanical failure on the aging aircraft, or friendly fire could have caused it as Ukraine works to get all of its combat systems, a hodgepodge of equipment, working smoothly together. Ukraine hasn't given a reason for the loss, but the investigation considered these possibilities.

Ukraine's F-16s are limited
Air-warfare experts previously told BI the F-16s weren't likely to be major game changers but would help Ukraine replenish lost aircraft, protect cities and other targets, and potentially allow Ukraine to launch new raids in the air.

The jets Ukraine is receiving, though a capability jump over its Soviet-era planes, are older F-16s without some of the newer upgrades. Bohnert described the fighters as "older airframes with not a lot of life left," though he said that "doesn't mean they're bad." Still, they're not a match for Russia's better jets or its formidable air defenses.

A bigger problem is that Ukraine wasn't given enough of the jets to use them like the West does and make a substantial difference.

Denmark, Norway, Belgium, and the Netherlands have pledged more than 85 F-16s to Ukraine. Only a handful were delivered in August. Roughly 20 of the fighters are expected to be delivered to Ukraine by the end of this year.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who said in July that his country wasn't getting enough new jets, said last month that there were plans to increase Ukraine's number of jets and trained pilots. He offered no details, however.

Partners have hamstrung Ukraine in how it uses Western weapons, and those limitations may prevent it from leveraging the F-16's capabilities in the way it could have without restrictions. But limited airframes and trained pilots are big issues.

Politico reported in June that not enough pilots were being trained for the jets Ukraine was promised. The outlet said partner nations had fewer training spots than Ukraine did jets and pilots ready to be trained. The delays in getting this program spun up have been detrimental.

Ukraine began asking for F-16s shortly after Russia invaded more than 2 ½ years ago. But the US, which has to give permission for the jets it manufactured to be donated even by other countries, was long reluctant.

Keir Giles, a senior consulting fellow at Chatham House's Russia and Eurasia Programme, said last month that the delay in meeting Ukraine's demands meant "Russia has been given ample time to plan for the appearance of Ukraine's new aircraft type and adapt to it."

Ukraine, on the other hand, is still setting up its new F-16 program and trying to resolve issues with pilot training and integrating the jets into Ukraine's military.

Michael Clarke, a Russia and Ukraine expert who's also a British national security advisor, told BI this summer that "if the West donated F-16s a year earlier, then most of these problems would be solved by now."

He also said that if more planes weren't on the table, then "in terms of defending Ukrainian airspace and being able to deal all the way across the front with Russia's numbers, the F-16s are a long way from being able to do that."

Challenges, limitations, and restrictions aside, air-warfare experts still say the jets are a positive for Ukraine.

Retired US Army Maj. Gen. Gordon "Skip" Davis, who was NATO's deputy assistant secretary-general for its Defense Investment Division, told BI that Ukraine's F-16s "are making a difference now" and that more arriving "will help them make more of a difference."

You have never answered any of my questions so sit and rotate

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:41 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:36 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:07 pm Who here was "wrong on this conflict" ? Specifics plz ?
Show us their words from Feb/Mar 2022 in this thread,

You

Show my words. Put up or shut up.

I don’t recall, at that point how long did you say the Ukrainians could hold off the Russians from taking most or all of Ukraine?

Didn’t you recommend that they fall back to westernmost Ukraine and try to make a stand there?

Been quite awhile since those discussions and I’m not sure any of us were 100% on the money in our predictions.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:41 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:36 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:07 pm Who here was "wrong on this conflict" ? Specifics plz ?
Show us their words from Feb/Mar 2022 in this thread,

You

Show my words. Put up or shut up.

I don’t recall, at that point how long did you say the Ukrainians could hold off the Russians from taking most or all of Ukraine?

Didn’t you recommend that they fall back to westernmost Ukraine and try to make a stand there?

Been quite awhile since those discussions and I’m not sure any of us were 100% on the money in our predictions.

I never recommended that. I don't recall predicting how long Ukraine could hold out. I was very cautious on making such early predictions. I might have said that moving to Lviv could be one of the possible bad outcomes, short of total capitulation, when Biden was offering to evac Zelensky, his family & govt to exile in Poland. I don't recall my making any predicted outcomes prior to my possible frozen conflict comment.

OCanada wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 3:34 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:07 pm

OCanada wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 7:43 pm The Atlantic has an article on why so many people were so wrong on this conflict invluding here. eg not paying attention go the corruption in the Russian military

https://apple.news/AS2w01R8OT7KNT4gkJHv37w

In the last year Russia has increased its presence by 0.01%

Who here was "wrong on this conflict" ? Specifics plz ?
Show us their words from Feb/Mar 2022 in this thread,

You have never answered any of my questions so sit and rotate

What are you talking about ? State your question.

I'm still waiting for you to post the content from that Atlantic article which you seem to regard as some "a ha" moment.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm
Been quite awhile since those discussions and I’m not sure any of us were 100% on the money in our predictions.

I was. 100% right.

-arming some guy is, for the 2,142 a stupid thing to do, and has a whole mess of unintended consequences. We're JUST seeing the very beginnings of the sh*t sandwich.

-had we done as I wrote BEFORE we made this mistake, none of this would have happened.

-what did I write? Either leave Ukraine the F alone, OR, if it's so freaking important to defend them? Sign a treaty with them, and park US Troops there.

-what did we do, as we ALWAYS do? We tried to get "a little bit pregnant", and half-*ss it.

If we had followed my recommended course of action? We'd have one of three outcomes: 1. US Troops would have defensive positions, and Putin would NEVER risk invasion, or 2. Putin would invade, and have a MASSIVE mess on his hands, trying to hold land that doesn't need to be held....and the US would be fine.

Or what I think would have happened: because we didn't arm them, Putin wouldn't have the need to invade before a fully armed Ukraine was IMPOSSIBLE to invade.

In each of the three cases, the United States wins. Instead? We're in an intractable mess, and have blown BILLIONS on yet another pointless war....and then there's the death and destruction. How fun!!!

And allllll the unintended consequences are on deck, waiting to make things worse.

Smart. We will NEVER learn to stop doing this.

When you recommend unrealistic courses of action, which no one in their right mind would follow, you will always be able to claim you were right.

We'd now have >100k US combat troops on NATO's E flank to protect our NATO treaty allies, or be at war with Russia.

The only way Putin would have left Ukraine alone is if we had told Ukraine to stay neutral & not pursue NATO membership.
Once we started meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs, fomenting revolutions & regime changes, & promising NATO membership,
war between Ukraine & Russia became inevitable.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 12:08 am When you recommend unrealistic courses of action, which no one in their right mind would follow, you will always be able to claim you were right.

We'd now have >100k US combat troops on NATO's E flank to protect our NATO treaty allies, or be at war with Russia.

The only way Putin would have left Ukraine alone is if we had told Ukraine to stay neutral & not pursue NATO membership.
Once we started meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs, fomenting revolutions & regime changes, & promising NATO membership,
war between Ukraine & Russia became inevitable.

Very ironic. Not a word about Russia or geopolitical realities.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 12:08 am When you recommend unrealistic courses of action, which no one in their right mind would follow, you will always be able to claim you were right.

Obama followed this EXACT path, OS. EXACT path. So.....bzzzt. Wrong. And you ripped him for it.

How many billions did we spend on Obama's plan? How many weapons did Obama blow through. Oh, that's right....zippo.


You claim I'm the one size fits all guy...yet here you are, insisting that our ONLY path with Ukraine was the one Trump and Biden took.

You failed the Grad School seminar on Ukraine, MISERABLY.

You'll never learn.

And you're here, trying to throw stones at the guy who told you EXACTLY what we should do BEFORE things got messy.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 12:08 am The only way Putin would have left Ukraine alone is if we had told Ukraine to stay neutral & not pursue NATO membership.
Once we started meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs, fomenting revolutions & regime changes, & promising NATO membership,
war between Ukraine & Russia became inevitable.

Buffalo bagels.

But even if you assume this is true, OS? Guess what? What did I tell you we should have done?

That's right: sign a treaty, and park US troops there, making invasion impossible for Putin.

We didn't do that. We chose YOUR half-*ssed path, and yet you're on here, lecturing us about how poorly things have gone.

This is YOUR path, not mine.

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:17 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 12:08 am The only way Putin would have left Ukraine alone is if we had told Ukraine to stay neutral & not pursue NATO membership.
Once we started meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs, fomenting revolutions & regime changes, & promising NATO membership,
war between Ukraine & Russia became inevitable.

Buffalo bagels.

But even if you assume this is true, OS? Guess what? What did I tell you we should have done?

That's right: sign a treaty, and park US troops there, making invasion impossible for Putin.

We didn't do that. We chose YOUR half-*ssed path, and yet you're on here, lecturing us about how poorly things have gone.

This is YOUR path, not mine.

Of course, this ignores Putin's aggressive territorial land grabs in Crimea (2015) and South South Ossetia (1992). Also currently threatening Moldova.

Ironic that people like Saltine trashed BHO (Democrat) but gave Dubya a pass (Republican) at those times.

Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:26 am

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:17 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 12:08 am The only way Putin would have left Ukraine alone is if we had told Ukraine to stay neutral & not pursue NATO membership.
Once we started meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs, fomenting revolutions & regime changes, & promising NATO membership,
war between Ukraine & Russia became inevitable.

Buffalo bagels.

But even if you assume this is true, OS? Guess what? What did I tell you we should have done?

That's right: sign a treaty, and park US troops there, making invasion impossible for Putin.

We didn't do that. We chose YOUR half-*ssed path, and yet you're on here, lecturing us about how poorly things have gone.

This is YOUR path, not mine.

Of course, this ignores Putin's aggressive territorial land grabs in Crimea (2015) and South South Ossetia (1992). Also currently threatening Moldova.

Bush did nothing militarily. What's more I DISCUSSED Bush doing nothing militarily with OS years ago.

Yet OS STILL thinks we "must" arm some guy. Two Presidents said no to that.

Either:

1. sign a treaty and park US troops there

2. or do NOTHING militarily.

This is NOT complicated.

Yet OS is on here lecturing me as to how the above is just insane, and his path is the only one available.

Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:26 am

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:17 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 12:08 am The only way Putin would have left Ukraine alone is if we had told Ukraine to stay neutral & not pursue NATO membership.
Once we started meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs, fomenting revolutions & regime changes, & promising NATO membership,
war between Ukraine & Russia became inevitable.

Buffalo bagels.

But even if you assume this is true, OS? Guess what? What did I tell you we should have done?

That's right: sign a treaty, and park US troops there, making invasion impossible for Putin.

We didn't do that. We chose YOUR half-*ssed path, and yet you're on here, lecturing us about how poorly things have gone.

This is YOUR path, not mine.

Of course, this ignores Putin's aggressive territorial land grabs in Crimea (2015) and South South Ossetia (1992). Also currently threatening Moldova.

Ironic that people like Saltine trashed BHO (Democrat) but gave Dubya a pass (Republican) at those times.

Yes. afan ignores those aggressive land grabs during the Obama Admin, after Obama sent Nuland & friends to Ukraine in 2014 to foment the Maidan Revolution & regime change which prompted Putin to seize Crimea & the Donbas enclaves, after promising NATO membership.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/america ... -hypocrisy

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:05 am Yes. afan ignores those aggressive land grabs during the Obama Admin, after Obama sent Nuland & friends to Ukraine in 2014 to foment the Maidan Revolution & regime change which prompted Putin to seize Crimea & the Donbas enclaves, after promising NATO membership.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/america ... -hypocrisy

Translation: I can't refute that A Fan is right, and I"m wrong, so I'm going to move the goalposts to where I always move them: The Dems are bad.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 10:03 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:41 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:36 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:07 pm Who here was "wrong on this conflict" ? Specifics plz ?
Show us their words from Feb/Mar 2022 in this thread,

You

Show my words. Put up or shut up.

I don’t recall, at that point how long did you say the Ukrainians could hold off the Russians from taking most or all of Ukraine?

Didn’t you recommend that they fall back to westernmost Ukraine and try to make a stand there?

Been quite awhile since those discussions and I’m not sure any of us were 100% on the money in our predictions.

I never recommended that. I don't recall predicting how long Ukraine could hold out. I was very cautious on making such early predictions. I might have said that moving to Lviv could be one of the possible bad outcomes, short of total capitulation, when Biden was offering to evac Zelensky, his family & govt to exile in Poland. I don't recall my making any predicted outcomes prior to my possible frozen conflict comment.

Ok, I recall you being super pessimistic but it was quite awhile agp, so your views may be mixed in with others’ in my memory.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 11:11 am

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 10:03 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:41 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:36 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:07 pm Who here was "wrong on this conflict" ? Specifics plz ?
Show us their words from Feb/Mar 2022 in this thread,

You

Show my words. Put up or shut up.

I don’t recall, at that point how long did you say the Ukrainians could hold off the Russians from taking most or all of Ukraine?

Didn’t you recommend that they fall back to westernmost Ukraine and try to make a stand there?

Been quite awhile since those discussions and I’m not sure any of us were 100% on the money in our predictions.

I never recommended that. I don't recall predicting how long Ukraine could hold out. I was very cautious on making such early predictions. I might have said that moving to Lviv could be one of the possible bad outcomes, short of total capitulation, when Biden was offering to evac Zelensky, his family & govt to exile in Poland. I don't recall my making any predicted outcomes prior to my possible frozen conflict comment.

Ok, I recall you being super pessimistic but it was quite awhile agp, so your views may be mixed in with others’ in my memory.

...super pessimistic = not sharing your unrealistic expectation of a Russian collapse & a Ukrainian victory.

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:34 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:05 am Yes. afan ignores those aggressive land grabs during the Obama Admin, after Obama sent Nuland & friends to Ukraine in 2014 to foment the Maidan Revolution & regime change which prompted Putin to seize Crimea & the Donbas enclaves, after promising NATO membership.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/america ... -hypocrisy

Translation: I can't refute that A Fan is right, and I"m wrong, so I'm going to move the goalposts to where I always move them: The Dems are bad.

standard afan move -- can't refute the facts so claim the goal posts moved.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:22 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:34 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:05 am Yes. afan ignores those aggressive land grabs during the Obama Admin, after Obama sent Nuland & friends to Ukraine in 2014 to foment the Maidan Revolution & regime change which prompted Putin to seize Crimea & the Donbas enclaves, after promising NATO membership.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/america ... -hypocrisy

Translation: I can't refute that A Fan is right, and I"m wrong, so I'm going to move the goalposts to where I always move them: The Dems are bad.

standard afan move -- can't refute the facts so claim the goal posts moved.

No surprise OS again fails to account for Russia. Bromance.

https://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/18088560/u ... ed-to-know

Russia invaded after Putin’s puppet and the head of a very corrupt regime was overthrown opening the possibility of NATO being on the border of Russia.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:22 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:34 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:05 am Yes. afan ignores those aggressive land grabs during the Obama Admin, after Obama sent Nuland & friends to Ukraine in 2014 to foment the Maidan Revolution & regime change which prompted Putin to seize Crimea & the Donbas enclaves, after promising NATO membership.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/america ... -hypocrisy

Translation: I can't refute that A Fan is right, and I"m wrong, so I'm going to move the goalposts to where I always move them: The Dems are bad.

standard afan move -- can't refute the facts so claim the goal posts moved.

How does the above blame change anything?

(it doesn't...outside of you blaming the Dems, this changes NOTHING).

-either sign a treaty with them and drop in US troops so that Putin can't invade, or

-do nothing about Ukraine militarily.

Goalposts firmly in place.

The best part that shows how you are unable to think your way through problems? You've been b*tching about the outcome of arming Ukrainians for months. So CLEARLY you are unhappy with the results. Yet you think we had "no choice" but for Trump and Biden to arm the Ukrainians.

You're now cheering on the bad outcome that you don't like (the Ukraine-Russian war), while telling me that we HAD to do what we did.

Hilarious. Failed the Grad Seminar SO badly.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:18 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 11:11 am

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 10:03 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:41 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:36 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:07 pm Who here was "wrong on this conflict" ? Specifics plz ?
Show us their words from Feb/Mar 2022 in this thread,

You

Show my words. Put up or shut up.

I don’t recall, at that point how long did you say the Ukrainians could hold off the Russians from taking most or all of Ukraine?

Didn’t you recommend that they fall back to westernmost Ukraine and try to make a stand there?

Been quite awhile since those discussions and I’m not sure any of us were 100% on the money in our predictions.

I never recommended that. I don't recall predicting how long Ukraine could hold out. I was very cautious on making such early predictions. I might have said that moving to Lviv could be one of the possible bad outcomes, short of total capitulation, when Biden was offering to evac Zelensky, his family & govt to exile in Poland. I don't recall my making any predicted outcomes prior to my possible frozen conflict comment.

Ok, I recall you being super pessimistic but it was quite awhile agp, so your views may be mixed in with others’ in my memory.

...super pessimistic = not sharing your unrealistic expectation of a Russian collapse & a Ukrainian victory.

Mmm, I really do recall you telling us that Ukraine could not hold out, but there was a lot swirling at the time so my recollection could be hazy or incorrect.

OCanada wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:29 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:22 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:34 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:05 am Yes. afan ignores those aggressive land grabs during the Obama Admin, after Obama sent Nuland & friends to Ukraine in 2014 to foment the Maidan Revolution & regime change which prompted Putin to seize Crimea & the Donbas enclaves, after promising NATO membership.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/america ... -hypocrisy

Translation: I can't refute that A Fan is right, and I"m wrong, so I'm going to move the goalposts to where I always move them: The Dems are bad.

standard afan move -- can't refute the facts so claim the goal posts moved.

No surprise OS again fails to account for Russia. Bromance.

https://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/18088560/u ... ed-to-know

Russia invaded after Putin’s puppet and the head of a very corrupt regime was overthrown opening the possibility of NATO being on the border of Russia.

Putin's puppet was elected in an internationally recognized election. We just didn't like the result after we had invested in fomenting a second revolution & regime change.