All Things Russia & Ukraine

[old salt]

Tell us how to get out while guaranteeing fewer casualties.

The math averaging for the 4 years leading to the withdrawal, Cradle, told us that for every additional month, you can expect (and this is ONLY American soldiers).....16 deaths.

Biden's evac gave us 13. How do you beat that if you take your sweet time getting out? Tell us what you'd do?

Bogus dishonest math. There were no US losses in the 18 mos prior to the pullout fiasco.

Leave a residual force of 2500 at Bagram, as our military recommended until the ASF were ready to stand alone.

[MDlaxfan76]

I also think that there's a legitimate argument that, having paid an enormous price in fighting Al Qaeda and their protectors the Taliban, and moreover having promised those millions of women and girls some hope for a better future, we should have continued to pay some price to make that better future an ongoing reality.

Yeah....we didn't do that either. In order to do that, you need another 20,000 troops, and billions in actual direct construction of real cities.

As usual, the Neo-Cons in both parties only think we should blow money on bombs. Read Charlie Wilson's War for direct evidence of that. They think war fixes everything.

So we half-assed it in Afghanistan, instead of spending 100x what we spent on bombs on infrastructure.

We didn't even TRY, MDlax. Mailed it in, as a always, and then act shocked when minimal spending has a minimal effect.

That’s your perspective.
And it has merit.

I’m saying there’s also a legitimate view that a sustained effort would have had a large positive humanitarian benefit and, given the prior commitments, would have demonstrated to friends and foes that America keeps its commitments.

I say that too has merit.

We can come down differently or on the same side without ignoring the merits of another perspective.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Tell us how to get out while guaranteeing fewer casualties.

The math averaging for the 4 years leading to the withdrawal, Cradle, told us that for every additional month, you can expect (and this is ONLY American soldiers).....16 deaths.

Biden's evac gave us 13. How do you beat that if you take your sweet time getting out? Tell us what you'd do?

Bogus dishonest math. There were no US losses in the 18 mos prior to the pullout fiasco.

They knew we were leaving. Simple stuff and not representative of the previous two decades.

[cradleandshoot]

Tell us how to get out while guaranteeing fewer casualties.

The math averaging for the 4 years leading to the withdrawal, Cradle, told us that for every additional month, you can expect (and this is ONLY American soldiers).....16 deaths.

Biden's evac gave us 13. How do you beat that if you take your sweet time getting out? Tell us what you'd do?

Bogus dishonest math. There were no US losses in the 18 mos prior to the pullout fiasco.

They knew we were leaving. Simple stuff and not representative of the previous two decades.

They knew we were leaving. They didn't have to know when, where or how. I don't understand why so many folks on this forum can't grasp the concept of how significant that is. Those same people can't grasp the concept of why the cluster f**k at Abbey Gate should NEVER have been allowed to happen. Our military knew with 100% certainty there would be a terrorist attack. They were 100% aware that they could do nothing to stop it. With the Taliban providing security whatever was there to worry about? One thing Joe Biden proved without a shadow of a doubt...he has no clue how to conduct a strategic withdrawal from a hostile nation. I wonder if the American people will ever know the advise the Bidens military advisors gave him? It sure as hell wouldn't have been to conduct the strategic withdrawal in the manner Biden chose to proceed.

[a fan]

Tell us how to get out while guaranteeing fewer casualties.

The math averaging for the 4 years leading to the withdrawal, Cradle, told us that for every additional month, you can expect (and this is ONLY American soldiers).....16 deaths.

Biden's evac gave us 13. How do you beat that if you take your sweet time getting out? Tell us what you'd do?

Bogus dishonest math.

F you, and your BS, Trump-boy. Now you're on here parroting Trump---which is where you got your "18 months" phrase (way to hide where you got your lie from, dude), instead of the very military you were a leader in.....let me guess, you think the military is lying, and Trump is telling the truth.

The database provides data on U.S. military casualties in Afghanistan from 2015. Deaths were recorded every year since 2015, except for 2022 (here).
A timeline of the process of the U.S. troop withdrawal agreement can be seen (here).

If Trump was referring to the period between February 2020 and August 2021, when he negotiated the Afghanistan withdrawal agreement, 15 deaths in total were recorded as “hostile deaths” in the database, with two in February 2020 and 13 in August 2021 (here). Equally, “Non-Hostile/Pending Deaths” were also registered in this period.


And shocker, your idea of "leaving Afghanistan" is to keep out sitting ducks there, and you're too partisan-stupid to understand that more troops would die in you idiotic "plan' than in Biden's.

Remind us again, oh master military tactician....how many US KIA did we suffer in Afghanistan in 2022, 2023, and here in 2024?

Oh, that's right. Zero. Your plan would have, on average, given us another 30-50 pine boxes over just THREE YEARS. Oh yeah, that's an AWESOME plan. So what, right? Those troops are from "someone else's family", so you think I shouldn't care, and that I'm a wanker for not wanting more dead Americans for no reason.

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-ch ... L2N2X92S8/

[a fan]

I also think that there's a legitimate argument that, having paid an enormous price in fighting Al Qaeda and their protectors the Taliban, and moreover having promised those millions of women and girls some hope for a better future, we should have continued to pay some price to make that better future an ongoing reality.

Yeah....we didn't do that either. In order to do that, you need another 20,000 troops, and billions in actual direct construction of real cities.

As usual, the Neo-Cons in both parties only think we should blow money on bombs. Read Charlie Wilson's War for direct evidence of that. They think war fixes everything.

So we half-assed it in Afghanistan, instead of spending 100x what we spent on bombs on infrastructure.

We didn't even TRY, MDlax. Mailed it in, as a always, and then act shocked when minimal spending has a minimal effect.

That’s your perspective.
And it has merit.

I’m saying there’s also a legitimate view that a sustained effort would have had a large positive humanitarian benefit

Sure, I agree, in principle. My point is: in no way did we do that over 20 years. We did the minimum, and mailed it in. And NATO should have been able to hold it together, no problem. Instead? They ran away.

And idiot R's want to blame Biden. Let them stand to post in that country. Oh, right. They don't want to do that....they just want to whine.

[youthathletics]

And idiot R's want to blame Biden. Let them stand to post in that country. Oh, right. They don't want to do that....they just want to whine.

No, just blaming Biden on how we evacuated....full stop, no need to lump that in with the 20 year GWOT. I believe EVERYONE wanted the war to end and bullets to stop flying.....how you connect the two certainly says you missed a ton of sh(t in-between there.

It certainly sounds like you no longer even want a military to 'be prepared, globally.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Can someone explain how surrendering to the Taliban was a good deal that Trump negotiated?

[a fan]

And idiot R's want to blame Biden. Let them stand to post in that country. Oh, right. They don't want to do that....they just want to whine.

No, just blaming Biden on how we evacuated....full stop, no need to lump that in with the 20 year GWOT. I believe EVERYONE wanted the war to end and bullets to stop flying.....how you connect the two certainly says you missed a ton of sh(t in-between there.

It certainly sounds like you no longer even want a military to 'be prepared, globally.

No. I'm pushing back against utter partisan horsesh*t.

Tell me how you evacuate "better", when even the dumbest American can tell you that for every 12 months, you can expect 15 dead Americans.

Tell me your plan, YA....and don't run away from this: tell us what you would have done.

Old Salt already told us his "plan" with all his military experience: his "plan" is to not leave, and let the American body count tick away at 15 per year.

In what F'ing world is this better than the 13 dead under Biden's withdrawal....followed by zero casualties for the rest of time? Answer: it ain't. The whining has NOTHING to do with the withdrawal, and everything with thinking it's sooper-awesome to use dead soldiers to score points on the Dems.

So let's hear it: what's YOUR plan, YA? And when you don't have one? Now you know why I'm so annoyed.

The Scoreboard reads: Biden got us out with 2 fewer KIA than the 4 year average. Telling us you can do better is partisan horsesh*t, and as you know, i'm sick of this nonstop D's and R's cr*p. You might as well claim the Taliban is eating dogs and cats in Springfield if we're going to be this dumb.

[youthathletics]

And idiot R's want to blame Biden. Let them stand to post in that country. Oh, right. They don't want to do that....they just want to whine.

No, just blaming Biden on how we evacuated....full stop, no need to lump that in with the 20 year GWOT. I believe EVERYONE wanted the war to end and bullets to stop flying.....how you connect the two certainly says you missed a ton of sh(t in-between there.

It certainly sounds like you no longer even want a military to 'be prepared, globally.

No. I'm pushing back against utter partisan horsesh*t.

Tell me how you evacuate "better", when even the dumbest American can tell you that for every 12 months, you can expect 15 dead Americans.

Tell me your plan, YA....and don't run away from this: tell us what you would have done.

Old Salt already told us his "plan" with all his military experience: his "plan" is to not leave, and let the American body count tick away at 15 per year.

In what F'ing world is this better than the 13 dead under Biden's withdrawal....followed by zero casualties for the rest of time? Answer: it ain't. The whining has NOTHING to do with the withdrawal, and everything with thinking it's sooper-awesome to use dead soldiers to score points on the Dems.

So let's hear it: what's YOUR plan, YA? And when you don't have one? Now you know why I'm so annoyed.

The Scoreboard reads: Biden got us out with 2 fewer KIA than the 4 year average. Telling us you can do better is partisan horsesh*t, and as you know, i'm sick of this nonstop D's and R's cr*p. You might as well claim the Taliban is eating dogs and cats in Springfield if we're going to be this dumb.

Well.....sorry, you would be in that group of dumb Americans...

Total Fatalities: for the year (12 months) prior to August 21', only 1 soldier was killed, 4 in the prior 17 months.
Killed in Action: Zero KIA in the 17 months prior to Abbey Gate, 9 in the two years prior to Abbey Gate.

One is too many, I think we can agree on that.

OS's plan, actually makes more sense, when you understand the 17 months prior, there were Zero Fatalities. Abbey Gate was the most KIA since 2011-JUNE, which was 14.

This seems like another one of those times you can't accept what is accurate (poor plan and execution) and choose to argue, rather than to simply say....yep it was a fugged up plan with poor execution planning, sure wish we didn't do it that way.

[a fan]

Well.....sorry, you would be in that group of dumb Americans...

Yeah, no. JUST cited the DoD's own reports to OS above. You're wrong. Aug 2021, 15 KIAs in Afghanistan.

Try again. Who's numbers do you want to use? DoD? Or wikipedia?

We had this EXACT discussion after the invasion, and used the DoD numbers.

And you're gonna ignore that we had KIA's in 2019, 2018, 2017.....etc (and yes, 2021), and assume if we keep our troops there forever, NO ONE will get killed?

Seems that YOU are the one arguing, and like I knew you would, wouldn't give me a better plan.

Your plan is to let our troops stay there, and get picked off at an average of 15 KIA's per year. And you think this is "better"? Seriously?

And where's the part where you hit Trump for his KIA for just letting them sit there for no reason? As usual, that's MIA. Biden is bad.

I RIPPED Obama for not pulling our Troops out with a big Mission Accomplished parade, the DAY that we popped OBL. I'm the ONLY one here calling balls and strikes. You can't throw stones at me for how I've treated Afghanistan, sorry.

[Typical Lax Dad]

[Typical Lax Dad]

Let’s roll the tape.

[youthathletics]

Well.....sorry, you would be in that group of dumb Americans...

Yeah, no. JUST cited the DoD's own reports to OS above. You're wrong. Aug 2021, 15 KIAs in Afghanistan.

Try again. Who's numbers do you want to use? DoD? Or wikipedia?

We had this EXACT discussion after the invasion, and used the DoD numbers.

And you're gonna ignore that we had KIA's in 2019, 2018, 2017.....etc (and yes, 2021), and assume if we keep our troops there forever, NO ONE will get killed?

Seems that YOU are the one arguing, and like I knew you would, wouldn't give me a better plan.

Your plan is to let our troops stay there, and get picked off at an average of 15 KIA's per year. And you think this is "better"? Seriously?

And where's the part where you hit Trump for his KIA for just letting them sit there for no reason? As usual, that's MIA. Biden is bad.

I RIPPED Obama for not pulling our Troops out with a big Mission Accomplished parade, the DAY that we popped OBL. I'm the ONLY one here calling balls and strikes. You can't throw stones at me for how I've treated Afghanistan, sorry.

The WIki references the DoD. Abbey gate was August 21'.....even your cite has it if you go to the DoD link they shared and downloaded the excel file. Inserted below. You said 12 per year and are INCLUDING the 13 from Abbey Gate. We are saying, had the plan been executed in a much slower more methodical fashion without a trigger finger plan......there could have been 13 less deaths in those years of exiting Afghanistan.

'm not throwing stones at you, I am clarifying the hostile/KIA death count. Again, prior to Abbey gate, we have zero deaths in Afghanistan under Bidens Watch......that is a positive.

Again, we both agree we wanted out of the GWOT ASAP, but we can still leave a presence, maintain relationship with our friendlies that supported us and not leave them to be killed, leave our biometrics intel for the bad guys to use, among other things.

[a fan]

The WIki references the DoD. Abbey gate was August 21'.....even your cite has it if you go to the DoD link they shared and downloaded the excel file. Inserted below. You said 12 per year and are INCLUDING the 13 from Abbey Gate. We are saying, had the plan been executed in a much slower more methodical fashion without a trigger finger plan......there could have been 13 less deaths in those years of exiting Afghanistan.

A. Could have been. Oh come on. Yeah, I know. It's possible, sure. But if we're playing that game? What's the other possible outcome?

It could have been FAR WORSE if you did as you say and taken YEARS instead of month to get out. Savvy?

This is complete and utter partisan BS. You and clownboy Old Salt would have been on here, telling us "war is hell", or 'you try and come up with a better plan" and all the rest of it if it happened on Trump's watch. You and everyone here have seen you two play this same game over and over and over. If a R is in the White House, out comes wise ol' Old Salt, counseling that war is hell, and bad stuff happens in war zones, and this is what they signed up for, and all that....but the INSTANT a Dem shows up? Oh, suddenly you're asking Hillary Clinton to personally handle the strategic defense of a diplomatic outpost.

And no matter how you play your game, we had pine boxes heading home under Trump....and I didn't hear one freaking complaint from you two about it, and I'm tired of this transparent-as-hell nonsense from you guys where Fox tells you "Biden ruined everything", and like clockwork, you show up here and tell us "Biden ruined everything". Just once, for my birthday or something, can you two stop telling us what Fox tells you to say? Just once, please.

And please tell me how the KIA's under Trump were fine. He and his "no more stupid wars" lie that you and OS bought hook line and sinker.....when he LEFT THEM THERE, leading to deaths, and neither of you so much as notice the KIAs. But out come the sob stories when Biden is smart enough to get the firetruck out of there, and you want to throw stones?

Sorry mate, this is all nonsense. Tell us again how many deaths we had over there this year?

I'm tired of you two trying to sell us that it's "coincidence" that you're on the forum, telling us Biden did it wrong, and Trump did it right. If nothing else? It's boring. Try a new independent thought. You might like it!

[a fan]

Let’s roll the tape.

You think these two are going to listen? Zero chance. Dems are bad.

[a fan]

The WIki references the DoD.

Yeah, that's ONE chart. Here ya go. It was 10 dead, four "in action", as if the other deaths "don't count" as action. Ready to take a knee yet?

KABUL, Afghanistan — Ten American service members died in Afghanistan in 2020, including four who were killed in action, making for the lowest number of U.S. combat deaths in the country in a calendar year since the war began in October 2001.



https://www.stripes.com/theaters/middle ... 0-1.656849

[youthathletics]

The WIki references the DoD. Abbey gate was August 21'.....even your cite has it if you go to the DoD link they shared and downloaded the excel file. Inserted below. You said 12 per year and are INCLUDING the 13 from Abbey Gate. We are saying, had the plan been executed in a much slower more methodical fashion without a trigger finger plan......there could have been 13 less deaths in those years of exiting Afghanistan.

A. Could have been. Oh come on. Yeah, I know. It's possible, sure. But if we're playing that game? What's the other possible outcome?

It could have been FAR WORSE if you did as you say and taken YEARS instead of month to get out. Savvy?

This is complete and utter partisan BS. You and clownboy Old Salt would have been on here, telling us "war is hell", or 'you try and come up with a better plan" and all the rest of it if it happened on Trump's watch. You and everyone here have seen you two play this same game over and over and over. If a R is in the White House, out comes wise ol' Old Salt, counseling that war is hell, and bad stuff happens in war zones, and this is what they signed up for, and all that....but the INSTANT a Dem shows up? Oh, suddenly you're asking Hillary Clinton to personally handle the strategic defense of a diplomatic outpost.

And no matter how you play your game, we had pine boxes heading home under Trump....and I didn't hear one freaking complaint from you two about it, and I'm tired of this transparent-as-hell nonsense from you guys where Fox tells you "Biden ruined everything", and like clockwork, you show up here and tell us "Biden ruined everything". Just once, for my birthday or something, can you two stop telling us what Fox tells you to say? Just once, please.

And please tell me how the KIA's under Trump were fine. He and his "no more stupid wars" lie that you and OS bought hook line and sinker.....when he LEFT THEM THERE, leading to deaths, and neither of you so much as notice the KIAs. But out come the sob stories when Biden is smart enough to get the firetruck out of there, and you want to throw stones?

Sorry mate, this is all nonsense. Tell us again how many deaths we had over there this year?

I'm tired of you two trying to sell us that it's "coincidence" that you're on the forum, telling us Biden did it wrong, and Trump did it right. If nothing else? It's boring. Try a new independent thought. You might like it!

Never said Trump did GWOT right…false equivalency. Only discussion on the table was Abbey Gate. See what happens when you bring so many other points into a singular talking point.

[youthathletics]

The WIki references the DoD.

Yeah, that's ONE chart. Here ya go. It was 10 dead, four "in action", as if the other deaths "don't count" as action. Ready to take a knee yet?

KABUL, Afghanistan — Ten American service members died in Afghanistan in 2020, including four who were killed in action, making for the lowest number of U.S. combat deaths in the country in a calendar year since the war began in October 2001.

https://www.stripes.com/theaters/middle ... 0-1.656849

All the chart already showed 4 in 2020, it was Zero for the year prior to Abbey Gate. I suppose you are already on your knees?, considering you said 12/yr.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The WIki references the DoD.

Yeah, that's ONE chart. Here ya go. It was 10 dead, four "in action", as if the other deaths "don't count" as action. Ready to take a knee yet?

KABUL, Afghanistan — Ten American service members died in Afghanistan in 2020, including four who were killed in action, making for the lowest number of U.S. combat deaths in the country in a calendar year since the war began in October 2001.



https://www.stripes.com/theaters/middle ... 0-1.656849

Wasn't someone crying about Kamala using the term active combat? Maybe the 10 were not technically active combat is what he meant?