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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:44 am
by cradleandshoot
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 1:08 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:25 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:02 am
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:07 am
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:08 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:03 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:30 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:43 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:55 am
Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.
Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world.
You wasted your time and effort.
Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.
No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.
Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.
Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?
NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.
The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.
+1
And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.
...& just the threat of a 2nd Trump term is prompting them to invest more in their own defense.
Poland is now up > 4% of GDP.
Putin's invasion of Ukraine is prompting them, not Trump.
Of course, they're indeed enormously worried that Trump would indeed turn his back regardless of Poland's efforts at self-defense.
He'll say, 'well, it's their problem, they should have built their own nukes..' or some such excuse. Could anyone blame them if they did now?
My European friends, both American expats and others, are flabbergasted that America could even imagine putting Trump back in office, given all that's gone down. They thought he was an a-hole the first term, but the stakes are so much higher for a second term, they think it's flat crazy that Americans would consider doing it.
Why should any American care what your European friends think about anything? We fought a war way back when to liberate ourselves from European type thinking. My mom begged my father to join her in her trip to Europe. My dads worst memories of his young life came from fighting for his life in France.
Gotta say that's a pretty nonsensical response. The Europeans are by and large our allies, democracies, in a dangerous world in which there are definite adversaries, authoritarians and despots.
It's a big world, cradle, outside of Upstate NY. And it's good to have allies.
Our allies did drag us into 2 world wars. Hopefully the way things are going in Ukraine that won't wind up being 3. With allies like that who needs enemies. As far as NATO goes it seems the responsibility for all of the heavy lifting always winds up in our lap.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:57 am
by old salt
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:44 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 1:08 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:25 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:02 am
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:07 am
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:08 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:03 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:30 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:43 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:55 am
Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.
Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world.
You wasted your time and effort.
Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.
No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.
Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.
Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?
NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.
The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.
+1
And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.
...& just the threat of a 2nd Trump term is prompting them to invest more in their own defense.
Poland is now up > 4% of GDP.
Putin's invasion of Ukraine is prompting them, not Trump.
Of course, they're indeed enormously worried that Trump would indeed turn his back regardless of Poland's efforts at self-defense.
He'll say, 'well, it's their problem, they should have built their own nukes..' or some such excuse. Could anyone blame them if they did now?
My European friends, both American expats and others, are flabbergasted that America could even imagine putting Trump back in office, given all that's gone down. They thought he was an a-hole the first term, but the stakes are so much higher for a second term, they think it's flat crazy that Americans would consider doing it.
Why should any American care what your European friends think about anything? We fought a war way back when to liberate ourselves from European type thinking. My mom begged my father to join her in her trip to Europe. My dads worst memories of his young life came from fighting for his life in France.
Gotta say that's a pretty nonsensical response. The Europeans are by and large our allies, democracies, in a dangerous world in which there are definite adversaries, authoritarians and despots.
It's a big world, cradle, outside of Upstate NY. And it's good to have allies.
Our allies did drag us into 2 world wars. Hopefully the way things are going in Ukraine that won't wind up being 3. With allies like that who needs enemies. As far as NATO goes it seems the responsibility for all of the heavy lifting always winds up in our lap.
Just look at the way that Japan & S Korea have armed themselves compared to our NATO allies & the way they contribute to the shared defense in their region.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:39 am
by MDlaxfan76
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:44 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 1:08 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:25 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:02 am
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:07 am
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:08 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:03 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:30 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:43 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:55 am
Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.
Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world.
You wasted your time and effort.
Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.
No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.
Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.
Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?
NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.
The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.
+1
And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.
...& just the threat of a 2nd Trump term is prompting them to invest more in their own defense.
Poland is now up > 4% of GDP.
Putin's invasion of Ukraine is prompting them, not Trump.
Of course, they're indeed enormously worried that Trump would indeed turn his back regardless of Poland's efforts at self-defense.
He'll say, 'well, it's their problem, they should have built their own nukes..' or some such excuse. Could anyone blame them if they did now?
My European friends, both American expats and others, are flabbergasted that America could even imagine putting Trump back in office, given all that's gone down. They thought he was an a-hole the first term, but the stakes are so much higher for a second term, they think it's flat crazy that Americans would consider doing it.
Why should any American care what your European friends think about anything? We fought a war way back when to liberate ourselves from European type thinking. My mom begged my father to join her in her trip to Europe. My dads worst memories of his young life came from fighting for his life in France.
Gotta say that's a pretty nonsensical response. The Europeans are by and large our allies, democracies, in a dangerous world in which there are definite adversaries, authoritarians and despots.
It's a big world, cradle, outside of Upstate NY. And it's good to have allies.
Our allies did drag us into 2 world wars. Hopefully the way things are going in Ukraine that won't wind up being 3. With allies like that who needs enemies. As far as NATO goes it seems the responsibility for all of the heavy lifting always winds up in our lap.
mmm, no, our allies were not the aggressors in either World War.
Nor are they in the Ukraine situation.
Let's be clear who did "drag us" into war.
It's the aggressors.
Again, the NATO "heavy lifting" is by American design...and we have profited immensely from our preeminent position and influence on the international trade system as a result. NATO is but one piece, but a very important piece.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:07 am
by MDlaxfan76
40% of all military spending in the world is done by the US.
Our annual spend is about 3.4% of GDP. Been as high as 3.9%.
Russia spends 4%. About a ninth of what we spend.
China is 1.5% of GDP. But GDP is large, so they spend roughly a third of what the US does. Less than 14% of global spend to our 40%.
Japan is 1.4% of GDP.
S.Korea is 2.7% of GDP.
Here's a raw spend chart comparison by country:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/262 ... %20dollars.
Here's a list of countries by % of GDP spend:
https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/ ... omparison/
Our NATO allies that spend significantly include:
UK at $75B and 2.3% of GDP
Germany at $67B and 2.1% of GDP
France at $61B and 2.1%
Italy at 35B and 1.5%
Poland at $32B and 4.1%...4.1%
And then there's Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, all over 2.1%.
Note that any combination of two of UK, Germany, and France spend well more on European theater than do Japan and South Korea for Pacific theater.
Add in Australia and still don't get there.
The Europeans spend far more than do our allies in the Pacific.
But we dwarf them all...again, by design.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 12:03 pm
by youthathletics
MD....what there a point in your post or for reference?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:00 pm
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:07 am
Note that any combination of two of UK, Germany, and France spend well more on European theater than do Japan and South Korea for Pacific theater.
The Europeans spend far more than do our allies in the Pacific.
Key difference -- the Japanese & Korean stuff works & they know how to use it. German readiness is a joke.
https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/03/ ... shrinking/
https://www.spiegel.de/international/ge ... 0c27dcc797
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm
by jhu72
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:23 pm
by MDlaxfan76
Salty struggles when the facts are wildly different than his diatribes.
That said, it's probably correct that Germany has lagged a number of its peer economies in military preparedness.
Again, by American design for 75+ years
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:54 pm
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:23 pm
Salty struggles when the facts are wildly different than his diatribes.
That said, it's probably correct that Germany has lagged a number of its peer economies in military preparedness.
Again, by American design for 75+ years
There is a whole lot more to military readiness & combat power/effectiveness than the simplistic metric of % GDP devoted to a military budget, which includes everything from child care centers to pensions.
...by American design for 75+ years = hogwash. Once the Cold War started we wanted every bit of W German combat power we could get.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:37 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:54 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:23 pm
Salty struggles when the facts are wildly different than his diatribes.
That said, it's probably correct that Germany has lagged a number of its peer economies in military preparedness.
Again, by American design for 75+ years
There is a whole lot more to military readiness & combat power/effectiveness than the simplistic metric of % GDP devoted to a military budget, which includes everything from child care centers to pensions.
...by American design for 75+ years = hogwash. Once the Cold War started we wanted every bit of W German combat power we could get.
How long had the Cold War been going, Salty, when you joined up?
The Germans were not allowed to have a military at all for quite awhile, a full decade, and well into the Cold War.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/decl ... 185912.htm
That said, you're right that the German military eventually did grow significantly throughout the next decades and peaked just after reunification. Then, like all the 'peace dividend' participants, downsized a lot.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:25 pm
by cradleandshoot
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:39 am
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:44 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 1:08 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:25 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:02 am
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:07 am
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:08 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:03 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:30 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:43 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:55 am
Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.
Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world.
You wasted your time and effort.
Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.
No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.
Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.
Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?
NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.
The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.
+1
And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.
...& just the threat of a 2nd Trump term is prompting them to invest more in their own defense.
Poland is now up > 4% of GDP.
Putin's invasion of Ukraine is prompting them, not Trump.
Of course, they're indeed enormously worried that Trump would indeed turn his back regardless of Poland's efforts at self-defense.
He'll say, 'well, it's their problem, they should have built their own nukes..' or some such excuse. Could anyone blame them if they did now?
My European friends, both American expats and others, are flabbergasted that America could even imagine putting Trump back in office, given all that's gone down. They thought he was an a-hole the first term, but the stakes are so much higher for a second term, they think it's flat crazy that Americans would consider doing it.
Why should any American care what your European friends think about anything? We fought a war way back when to liberate ourselves from European type thinking. My mom begged my father to join her in her trip to Europe. My dads worst memories of his young life came from fighting for his life in France.
Gotta say that's a pretty nonsensical response. The Europeans are by and large our allies, democracies, in a dangerous world in which there are definite adversaries, authoritarians and despots.
It's a big world, cradle, outside of Upstate NY. And it's good to have allies.
Our allies did drag us into 2 world wars. Hopefully the way things are going in Ukraine that won't wind up being 3. With allies like that who needs enemies. As far as NATO goes it seems the responsibility for all of the heavy lifting always winds up in our lap.
mmm, no, our allies were not the aggressors in either World War.
Nor are they in the Ukraine situation.
Let's be clear who did "drag us" into war.
It's the aggressors.
Again, the NATO "heavy lifting" is by American design...and we have profited immensely from our preeminent position and influence on the international trade system as a result. NATO is but one piece, but a very important piece.
I did not say our allies were the aggressors. I said their involvement in these 2 world wars dragged us into the 2 conflicts. For all intense and purpose WW1 was at a stalemate in 1917. That is when Woodrow Wilson use the reason that the Germans were trying to involve Mexico in the conflict that he sent over the " doughboys" to Europe. The battered German army couldn't handle the influx of fresh American soldiers.
You know already the Treaty of Versailles was the catalyst for the rise of Hitlers 3rd Reich. The English and the French demanded reparations from Germany that led to a breeding ground for the Nazis. While you may not technically consider that "aggressive" action by England and France it did lay the groundwork for WW2. Hence the rationale for the Marshall Plan to help rebuild Germany and the rest of war torn Europe. On a bit of a side note I watched 1917 this week on Netflix. It was a horrific although very well made movie that I found very difficult to watch.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:32 pm
by MDlaxfan76
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:25 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 10:39 am
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:44 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 1:08 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:25 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:02 am
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:07 am
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:08 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:03 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:30 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:52 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:43 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:55 am
Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.
Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world.
You wasted your time and effort.
Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.
No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.
Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.
Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?
NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.
The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.
+1
And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.
...& just the threat of a 2nd Trump term is prompting them to invest more in their own defense.
Poland is now up > 4% of GDP.
Putin's invasion of Ukraine is prompting them, not Trump.
Of course, they're indeed enormously worried that Trump would indeed turn his back regardless of Poland's efforts at self-defense.
He'll say, 'well, it's their problem, they should have built their own nukes..' or some such excuse. Could anyone blame them if they did now?
My European friends, both American expats and others, are flabbergasted that America could even imagine putting Trump back in office, given all that's gone down. They thought he was an a-hole the first term, but the stakes are so much higher for a second term, they think it's flat crazy that Americans would consider doing it.
Why should any American care what your European friends think about anything? We fought a war way back when to liberate ourselves from European type thinking. My mom begged my father to join her in her trip to Europe. My dads worst memories of his young life came from fighting for his life in France.
Gotta say that's a pretty nonsensical response. The Europeans are by and large our allies, democracies, in a dangerous world in which there are definite adversaries, authoritarians and despots.
It's a big world, cradle, outside of Upstate NY. And it's good to have allies.
Our allies did drag us into 2 world wars. Hopefully the way things are going in Ukraine that won't wind up being 3. With allies like that who needs enemies. As far as NATO goes it seems the responsibility for all of the heavy lifting always winds up in our lap.
mmm, no, our allies were not the aggressors in either World War.
Nor are they in the Ukraine situation.
Let's be clear who did "drag us" into war.
It's the aggressors.
Again, the NATO "heavy lifting" is by American design...and we have profited immensely from our preeminent position and influence on the international trade system as a result. NATO is but one piece, but a very important piece.
I did not say our allies were the aggressors. I said their involvement in these 2 world wars dragged us into the 2 conflicts. For all intense and purpose WW1 was at a stalemate in 1917. That is when Woodrow Wilson use the reason that the Germans were trying to involve Mexico in the conflict that he sent over the " doughboys" to Europe. The battered German army couldn't handle the influx of fresh American soldiers.
You know already the Treaty of Versailles was the catalyst for the rise of Hitlers 3rd Reich. The English and the French demanded reparations from Germany that led to a breeding ground for the Nazis. While you may not technically consider that "aggressive" action by England and France it did lay the groundwork for WW2. Hence the rationale for the Marshall Plan to help rebuild Germany and the rest of war torn Europe. On a bit of a side note I watched 1917 this week on Netflix. It was a horrific although very well made movie that I found very difficult to watch.
"involvement"? Being invaded and bombarded is not "dragging us" into it.
But that's the thing, cradle, friends and allies support one another against aggressors.
And that includes rallying to our side when we get hit... as occurred 9-11.
Only time article 5 has been invoked.
Yes, Treaty of Versailles was a diplomatic blunder.
Old school thinking. The Marshall Plan and how we handled Japan was very, very new school of thinking.
We created allies and trading partners of bitter foes.
And in so doing, created tremendous prosperity for ourselves.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:34 pm
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:37 pm
How long had the Cold War been going, Salty, when you joined up?
The Cold War is generally considered to have lasted 44 years (1947-1991).
I served for the final 25 years of the Cold War + 2 years after (1966-2003).
I deployed to the Med & was then based in Europe when NATO strength (in combat power) was at it's zenith. (1980-1987)
Prior to that, my operational deployments were in the Pacific, focused on countering the Soviet threat there.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 8:25 am
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:34 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:37 pm
How long had the Cold War been going, Salty, when you joined up?
The Cold War is generally considered to have lasted 44 years (1947-1991).
I served for the final 25 years of the Cold War + 2 years after (1966-2003).
I deployed to the Med & was then based in Europe when NATO strength (in combat power) was at it's zenith. (1980-1987)
Prior to that, my operational deployments were in the Pacific, focused on countering the Soviet threat there.
duplicate
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 8:32 am
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:34 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:37 pm
How long had the Cold War been going, Salty, when you joined up?
The Cold War is generally considered to have lasted 44 years (1947-1991).
I served for the final 25 years of the Cold War + 2 years after (1966-2003).
I deployed to the Med & was then based in Europe when NATO strength (in combat power) was at it's zenith. (1980-1987)
Prior to that, my operational deployments were in the Pacific, focused on countering the Soviet threat there.
Did you need to go to Vietnam during that time in Pacific?
Yes, that 80-87 period of NATO buildup was likely crucial to the final collapse of the Soviet Union.
The Soviet military machine was very powerful at the time, though their economy was in reality collapsing beneath them, given that military emphasis and the inefficiencies of their system. Very dangerous, had they gone a different path than the one Gorbachev opted to. Many don't understand how large that threat actually was.
My buddy served in Germany '83-87, I think. We visited summer '84. I think he did 4 more in reserves here.
My dad served '54-56 on the DEW line, then returned home, married and had me in '57. You're probably 14 years older than me, '79-80 now?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:24 am
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 8:32 am
old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:34 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:37 pm
How long had the Cold War been going, Salty, when you joined up?
The Cold War is generally considered to have lasted 44 years (1947-1991).
I served for the final 25 years of the Cold War + 2 years after (1966-2003).
I deployed to the Med & was then based in Europe when NATO strength (in combat power) was at it's zenith. (1980-1987)
Prior to that, my operational deployments were in the Pacific, focused on countering the Soviet threat there.
Did you need to go to Vietnam during that time in Pacific?
...just missed it. Coming out of flight school in '72, I was in the pipeline to get Army tactical flight training enroute to
HAL-3 -- the Navy's Huey gunship squadron flying in the Mekong Delta, It was the largest squadron in the Navy at the time. A month before I got my wings, the decision was made to shutdown HAL-3. I was lucky enough to still get a flying assignment & was "stashed" for 2 years on SAR duty in Corpus Christi, flying brand new UH-1N twin engine Huey, fresh out of the factory. It was good experience & allowed me attain Aircraft Commander qualification before I hit the Fleet.
By '74, I ended up in San Diego in the first W coast fleet squadron to deploy with
SH-2F LAMPS helos on frigates & destroyers. Vietnam was winding down by then. The pilot pipeline was backed up by HAL-3's shutdown. A lot of us were scrambling to get "fleet seats" & flight time. A lot of great pilots & officers with Reserve Commissions, many combat vets, were not augmented to Regular Commissions & were sent home. Had I not been a USNA grad, I'd have been one of them. The Vietnam wind down was brutal in that way.
In '76, I deployed aboard the
USS Kirk when she changed homeport from San Diego to Yokosuka, Japan. My detachment remained in Japan & we cross decked to
the other 2 Frigates homeported in Yokosuka. We saw all of WestPac. When we escorted the USS Midway, we were the only organic ASW aircraft in the carrier battle group, so we got a lot of actual "on top" ASW time, since the Midway was always shadowed by a noisy Soviet nuc sub out of Vladivostok.
On her previous deployment, the Kirk had been offshore S Vietnam when the embassy fell. You've no doubt seen the news footage of the Vietnamese Hueys landing on her deck & being pushed over the side. That was done by a detachment of my squadronmates deployed aboard the Kirk. 3 of the pilots from that detachment were each put in command of 3 Vietnamese Navy ships packed with evacuees, reflagged as USN ships, which sailed to the Phillipines with the evacuees onboard.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/129578263
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:24 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:24 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 8:32 am
old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:34 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:37 pm
How long had the Cold War been going, Salty, when you joined up?
The Cold War is generally considered to have lasted 44 years (1947-1991).
I served for the final 25 years of the Cold War + 2 years after (1966-2003).
I deployed to the Med & was then based in Europe when NATO strength (in combat power) was at it's zenith. (1980-1987)
Prior to that, my operational deployments were in the Pacific, focused on countering the Soviet threat there.
Did you need to go to Vietnam during that time in Pacific?
...just missed it. Coming out of flight school in '72, I was in the pipeline to get Army tactical flight training enroute to
HAL-3 -- the Navy's Huey gunship squadron flying in the Mekong Delta, It was the largest squadron in the Navy at the time. A month before I got my wings, the decision was made to shutdown HAL-3. I was lucky enough to still get a flying assignment & was "stashed" for 2 years on SAR duty in Corpus Christi, flying brand new UH-1N twin engine Huey, fresh out of the factory. It was good experience & allowed me attain Aircraft Commander qualification before I hit the Fleet.
By '74, I ended up in San Diego in the first W coast fleet squadron to deploy with
SH-2F LAMPS helos on frigates & destroyers. Vietnam was winding down by then. The pilot pipeline was backed up by HAL-3's shutdown. A lot of us were scrambling to get "fleet seats" & flight time. A lot of great pilots & officers with Reserve Commissions, many combat vets, were not augmented to Regular Commissions & were sent home. Had I not been a USNA grad, I'd have been one of them. The Vietnam wind down was brutal in that way.
In '76, I deployed aboard the
USS Kirk when she changed homeport from San Diego to Yokosuka, Japan. My detachment remained in Japan & we cross decked to
the other 2 Frigates homeported in Yokosuka. We saw all of WestPac. When we escorted the USS Midway, we were the only organic ASW aircraft in the carrier battle group, so we got a lot of actual "on top" ASW time, since the Midway was always shadowed by a noisy Soviet nuc sub out of Vladivostok.
On her previous deployment, the Kirk had been offshore S Vietnam when the embassy fell. You've no doubt seen the news footage of the Vietnamese Hueys landing on her deck & being pushed over the side. That was done by a detachment of my squadronmates deployed aboard the Kirk. 3 of the pilots from that detachment were each put in command of 3 Vietnamese Navy ships packed with evacuees, reflagged as USN ships, which sailed to the Phillipines with the evacuees onboard.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/129578263
Fortunate. Ugly, dangerous fighting, Vietnam, Cambodia, whether on the ground or air.
I'd grown up assuming I'd be going as it was present for much of my growing up, however I graduated HS in '76, turned 18...no draft, no registration even, military downsizing so no demand at the time.
And the hangover from Vietnam was heavy. So much damage.
Plus Pentagon papers, Watergate, etc. made taking orders seem "unappealing".
My buddy had parlayed full ride ROTC through Princeton and UMD Law in return for JAG service in Germany, where he had lots of court time instead of being some lackey in a big law firm as a junior associate. Landed litigation at Venable. Excellent ROI.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:05 am
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:24 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:24 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 8:32 am
old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:34 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:37 pm
How long had the Cold War been going, Salty, when you joined up?
The Cold War is generally considered to have lasted 44 years (1947-1991).
I served for the final 25 years of the Cold War + 2 years after (1966-2003).
I deployed to the Med & was then based in Europe when NATO strength (in combat power) was at it's zenith. (1980-1987)
Prior to that, my operational deployments were in the Pacific, focused on countering the Soviet threat there.
Did you need to go to Vietnam during that time in Pacific?
...just missed it. Coming out of flight school in '72, I was in the pipeline to get Army tactical flight training enroute to
HAL-3 -- the Navy's Huey gunship squadron flying in the Mekong Delta, It was the largest squadron in the Navy at the time. A month before I got my wings, the decision was made to shutdown HAL-3. I was lucky enough to still get a flying assignment & was "stashed" for 2 years on SAR duty in Corpus Christi, flying brand new UH-1N twin engine Huey, fresh out of the factory. It was good experience & allowed me attain Aircraft Commander qualification before I hit the Fleet.
By '74, I ended up in San Diego in the first W coast fleet squadron to deploy with
SH-2F LAMPS helos on frigates & destroyers. Vietnam was winding down by then. The pilot pipeline was backed up by HAL-3's shutdown. A lot of us were scrambling to get "fleet seats" & flight time. A lot of great pilots & officers with Reserve Commissions, many combat vets, were not augmented to Regular Commissions & were sent home. Had I not been a USNA grad, I'd have been one of them. The Vietnam wind down was brutal in that way.
In '76, I deployed aboard the
USS Kirk when she changed homeport from San Diego to Yokosuka, Japan. My detachment remained in Japan & we cross decked to
the other 2 Frigates homeported in Yokosuka. We saw all of WestPac. When we escorted the USS Midway, we were the only organic ASW aircraft in the carrier battle group, so we got a lot of actual "on top" ASW time, since the Midway was always shadowed by a noisy Soviet nuc sub out of Vladivostok.
On her previous deployment, the Kirk had been offshore S Vietnam when the embassy fell. You've no doubt seen the news footage of the Vietnamese Hueys landing on her deck & being pushed over the side. That was done by a detachment of my squadronmates deployed aboard the Kirk. 3 of the pilots from that detachment were each put in command of 3 Vietnamese Navy ships packed with evacuees, reflagged as USN ships, which sailed to the Phillipines with the evacuees onboard.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/129578263
Fortunate. Ugly, dangerous fighting, Vietnam, Cambodia, whether on the ground or air.
I'd grown up assuming I'd be going as it was present for much of my growing up, however I graduated HS in '76, turned 18...no draft, no registration even, military downsizing so no demand at the time.
And the hangover from Vietnam was heavy. So much damage.
Plus Pentagon papers, Watergate, etc. made taking orders seem "unappealing".
My buddy had parlayed full ride ROTC through Princeton and UMD Law in return for JAG service in Germany, where he had lots of court time instead of being some lackey in a big law firm as a junior associate. Landed litigation at Venable. Excellent ROI.
I had mixed emotions when HAL-3 shut down. After my verbal orders were cancelled, my long distance romance with my now wife became much more serious. Even though she surprised me by proposing marriage, I'm not sure she would have done so, if I was headed off to Vietnam for a year. I would not have asked her to make such a commitment until after I returned. I felt like I was missing out on a part of history, but I was happy that a brutal war we were not winning was coming to an end. It certainly would have helped me professionally had I gone. HAL-3 was famous for cranking out Air Medals, many were deserved. It was very valuable experience for a helo pilot, but any duty assignments the Navy offered after that, would have seemed anti-climactic. Although I felt that the rest of my follow on duties, being operational, had value in helping us prevail in the Cold War. It gave me useful, close up insights into our allies & our adversaries....& I enjoyed the work & the people I had the privilege of serving with.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 4:51 pm
by cradleandshoot
It looks like Ukraine is dialing back use of those precision munitions they have been given. The Russians in short order have found out how to jam the GPS signal making them next to useless. Those old school 155 millimeter artillery rounds may be lacking in range but they are still as effective as hell
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 5:08 pm
by a fan
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:05 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:24 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 10:24 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 8:32 am
old salt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 5:34 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 2:37 pm
How long had the Cold War been going, Salty, when you joined up?
The Cold War is generally considered to have lasted 44 years (1947-1991).
I served for the final 25 years of the Cold War + 2 years after (1966-2003).
I deployed to the Med & was then based in Europe when NATO strength (in combat power) was at it's zenith. (1980-1987)
Prior to that, my operational deployments were in the Pacific, focused on countering the Soviet threat there.
Did you need to go to Vietnam during that time in Pacific?
...just missed it. Coming out of flight school in '72, I was in the pipeline to get Army tactical flight training enroute to
HAL-3 -- the Navy's Huey gunship squadron flying in the Mekong Delta, It was the largest squadron in the Navy at the time. A month before I got my wings, the decision was made to shutdown HAL-3. I was lucky enough to still get a flying assignment & was "stashed" for 2 years on SAR duty in Corpus Christi, flying brand new UH-1N twin engine Huey, fresh out of the factory. It was good experience & allowed me attain Aircraft Commander qualification before I hit the Fleet.
By '74, I ended up in San Diego in the first W coast fleet squadron to deploy with
SH-2F LAMPS helos on frigates & destroyers. Vietnam was winding down by then. The pilot pipeline was backed up by HAL-3's shutdown. A lot of us were scrambling to get "fleet seats" & flight time. A lot of great pilots & officers with Reserve Commissions, many combat vets, were not augmented to Regular Commissions & were sent home. Had I not been a USNA grad, I'd have been one of them. The Vietnam wind down was brutal in that way.
In '76, I deployed aboard the
USS Kirk when she changed homeport from San Diego to Yokosuka, Japan. My detachment remained in Japan & we cross decked to
the other 2 Frigates homeported in Yokosuka. We saw all of WestPac. When we escorted the USS Midway, we were the only organic ASW aircraft in the carrier battle group, so we got a lot of actual "on top" ASW time, since the Midway was always shadowed by a noisy Soviet nuc sub out of Vladivostok.
On her previous deployment, the Kirk had been offshore S Vietnam when the embassy fell. You've no doubt seen the news footage of the Vietnamese Hueys landing on her deck & being pushed over the side. That was done by a detachment of my squadronmates deployed aboard the Kirk. 3 of the pilots from that detachment were each put in command of 3 Vietnamese Navy ships packed with evacuees, reflagged as USN ships, which sailed to the Phillipines with the evacuees onboard.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/129578263
Fortunate. Ugly, dangerous fighting, Vietnam, Cambodia, whether on the ground or air.
I'd grown up assuming I'd be going as it was present for much of my growing up, however I graduated HS in '76, turned 18...no draft, no registration even, military downsizing so no demand at the time.
And the hangover from Vietnam was heavy. So much damage.
Plus Pentagon papers, Watergate, etc. made taking orders seem "unappealing".
My buddy had parlayed full ride ROTC through Princeton and UMD Law in return for JAG service in Germany, where he had lots of court time instead of being some lackey in a big law firm as a junior associate. Landed litigation at Venable. Excellent ROI.
I had mixed emotions when HAL-3 shut down. After my verbal orders were cancelled, my long distance romance with my now wife became much more serious. Even though she surprised me by proposing marriage, I'm not sure she would have done so, if I was headed off to Vietnam for a year. I would not have asked her to make such a commitment until after I returned. I felt like I was missing out on a part of history, but I was happy that a brutal war we were not winning was coming to an end. It certainly would have helped me professionally had I gone. HAL-3 was famous for cranking out Air Medals, many were deserved. It was very valuable experience for a helo pilot, but any duty assignments the Navy offered after that, would have seemed anti-climactic. Although I felt that the rest of my follow on duties, being operational, had value in helping us prevail in the Cold War. It gave me useful, close up insights into our allies & our adversaries....& I enjoyed the work & the people I had the privilege of serving with.
If you look at NATO pre-1990, the now-EU countries spent a heckuva lot more on the military. Makes sense to scale back, imho. But not if it means that the US is holding everyone's water.
Which is precisely what's been happening.
