All Things Russia & Ukraine

[cradleandshoot]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.

+1

And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.

...& just the threat of a 2nd Trump term is prompting them to invest more in their own defense.
Poland is now up > 4% of GDP.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is prompting them, not Trump.

Of course, they're indeed enormously worried that Trump would indeed turn his back regardless of Poland's efforts at self-defense.

He'll say, 'well, it's their problem, they should have built their own nukes..' or some such excuse. Could anyone blame them if they did now?

My European friends, both American expats and others, are flabbergasted that America could even imagine putting Trump back in office, given all that's gone down. They thought he was an a-hole the first term, but the stakes are so much higher for a second term, they think it's flat crazy that Americans would consider doing it.

Why should any American care what your European friends think about anything? We fought a war way back when to liberate ourselves from European type thinking. My mom begged my father to join her in her trip to Europe. My dads worst memories of his young life came from fighting for his life in France.

Gotta say that's a pretty nonsensical response. The Europeans are by and large our allies, democracies, in a dangerous world in which there are definite adversaries, authoritarians and despots.

It's a big world, cradle, outside of Upstate NY. And it's good to have allies.

Our allies did drag us into 2 world wars. Hopefully the way things are going in Ukraine that won't wind up being 3. With allies like that who needs enemies. As far as NATO goes it seems the responsibility for all of the heavy lifting always winds up in our lap.

[old salt]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.

+1

And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.

...& just the threat of a 2nd Trump term is prompting them to invest more in their own defense.
Poland is now up > 4% of GDP.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is prompting them, not Trump.

Of course, they're indeed enormously worried that Trump would indeed turn his back regardless of Poland's efforts at self-defense.

He'll say, 'well, it's their problem, they should have built their own nukes..' or some such excuse. Could anyone blame them if they did now?

My European friends, both American expats and others, are flabbergasted that America could even imagine putting Trump back in office, given all that's gone down. They thought he was an a-hole the first term, but the stakes are so much higher for a second term, they think it's flat crazy that Americans would consider doing it.

Why should any American care what your European friends think about anything? We fought a war way back when to liberate ourselves from European type thinking. My mom begged my father to join her in her trip to Europe. My dads worst memories of his young life came from fighting for his life in France.

Gotta say that's a pretty nonsensical response. The Europeans are by and large our allies, democracies, in a dangerous world in which there are definite adversaries, authoritarians and despots.

It's a big world, cradle, outside of Upstate NY. And it's good to have allies.

Our allies did drag us into 2 world wars. Hopefully the way things are going in Ukraine that won't wind up being 3. With allies like that who needs enemies. As far as NATO goes it seems the responsibility for all of the heavy lifting always winds up in our lap.

Just look at the way that Japan & S Korea have armed themselves compared to our NATO allies & the way they contribute to the shared defense in their region.

[MDlaxfan76]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.

+1

And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.

...& just the threat of a 2nd Trump term is prompting them to invest more in their own defense.
Poland is now up > 4% of GDP.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is prompting them, not Trump.

Of course, they're indeed enormously worried that Trump would indeed turn his back regardless of Poland's efforts at self-defense.

He'll say, 'well, it's their problem, they should have built their own nukes..' or some such excuse. Could anyone blame them if they did now?

My European friends, both American expats and others, are flabbergasted that America could even imagine putting Trump back in office, given all that's gone down. They thought he was an a-hole the first term, but the stakes are so much higher for a second term, they think it's flat crazy that Americans would consider doing it.

Why should any American care what your European friends think about anything? We fought a war way back when to liberate ourselves from European type thinking. My mom begged my father to join her in her trip to Europe. My dads worst memories of his young life came from fighting for his life in France.

Gotta say that's a pretty nonsensical response. The Europeans are by and large our allies, democracies, in a dangerous world in which there are definite adversaries, authoritarians and despots.

It's a big world, cradle, outside of Upstate NY. And it's good to have allies.

Our allies did drag us into 2 world wars. Hopefully the way things are going in Ukraine that won't wind up being 3. With allies like that who needs enemies. As far as NATO goes it seems the responsibility for all of the heavy lifting always winds up in our lap.

mmm, no, our allies were not the aggressors in either World War.
Nor are they in the Ukraine situation.
Let's be clear who did "drag us" into war.
It's the aggressors.

Again, the NATO "heavy lifting" is by American design...and we have profited immensely from our preeminent position and influence on the international trade system as a result. NATO is but one piece, but a very important piece.

[MDlaxfan76]

40% of all military spending in the world is done by the US.

Our annual spend is about 3.4% of GDP. Been as high as 3.9%.


Russia spends 4%. About a ninth of what we spend.

China is 1.5% of GDP. But GDP is large, so they spend roughly a third of what the US does. Less than 14% of global spend to our 40%.

Japan is 1.4% of GDP.
S.Korea is 2.7% of GDP.

Here's a raw spend chart comparison by country:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/262 ... %20dollars.

Here's a list of countries by % of GDP spend:

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/ ... omparison/

Our NATO allies that spend significantly include:

UK at $75B and 2.3% of GDP
Germany at $67B and 2.1% of GDP
France at $61B and 2.1%
Italy at 35B and 1.5%
Poland at $32B and 4.1%...4.1%

And then there's Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, all over 2.1%.

Note that any combination of two of UK, Germany, and France spend well more on European theater than do Japan and South Korea for Pacific theater.

Add in Australia and still don't get there.

The Europeans spend far more than do our allies in the Pacific.

But we dwarf them all...again, by design.

[youthathletics]

MD....what there a point in your post or for reference?

[old salt]

Note that any combination of two of UK, Germany, and France spend well more on European theater than do Japan and South Korea for Pacific theater.
The Europeans spend far more than do our allies in the Pacific.

Key difference -- the Japanese & Korean stuff works & they know how to use it. German readiness is a joke.

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/03/ ... shrinking/

https://www.spiegel.de/international/ge ... 0c27dcc797

[jhu72]

Note that any combination of two of UK, Germany, and France spend well more on European theater than do Japan and South Korea for Pacific theater.
The Europeans spend far more than do our allies in the Pacific.

Key difference -- the Japanese & Korean stuff works & they know how to use it. German readiness is a joke.

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/03/ ... shrinking/

https://www.spiegel.de/international/ge ... 0c27dcc797

...

[MDlaxfan76]

Note that any combination of two of UK, Germany, and France spend well more on European theater than do Japan and South Korea for Pacific theater.
The Europeans spend far more than do our allies in the Pacific.

Key difference -- the Japanese & Korean stuff works & they know how to use it. German readiness is a joke.

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/03/ ... shrinking/

https://www.spiegel.de/international/ge ... 0c27dcc797

...

Salty struggles when the facts are wildly different than his diatribes.

That said, it's probably correct that Germany has lagged a number of its peer economies in military preparedness.
Again, by American design for 75+ years

[old salt]

Note that any combination of two of UK, Germany, and France spend well more on European theater than do Japan and South Korea for Pacific theater.
The Europeans spend far more than do our allies in the Pacific.

Key difference -- the Japanese & Korean stuff works & they know how to use it. German readiness is a joke.

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/03/ ... shrinking/

https://www.spiegel.de/international/ge ... 0c27dcc797

...

Salty struggles when the facts are wildly different than his diatribes.

That said, it's probably correct that Germany has lagged a number of its peer economies in military preparedness.
Again, by American design for 75+ years

There is a whole lot more to military readiness & combat power/effectiveness than the simplistic metric of % GDP devoted to a military budget, which includes everything from child care centers to pensions.

...by American design for 75+ years = hogwash. Once the Cold War started we wanted every bit of W German combat power we could get.

[MDlaxfan76]

Note that any combination of two of UK, Germany, and France spend well more on European theater than do Japan and South Korea for Pacific theater.
The Europeans spend far more than do our allies in the Pacific.

Key difference -- the Japanese & Korean stuff works & they know how to use it. German readiness is a joke.

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2024/03/ ... shrinking/

https://www.spiegel.de/international/ge ... 0c27dcc797

...

Salty struggles when the facts are wildly different than his diatribes.

That said, it's probably correct that Germany has lagged a number of its peer economies in military preparedness.
Again, by American design for 75+ years

There is a whole lot more to military readiness & combat power/effectiveness than the simplistic metric of % GDP devoted to a military budget, which includes everything from child care centers to pensions.

...by American design for 75+ years = hogwash. Once the Cold War started we wanted every bit of W German combat power we could get.

How long had the Cold War been going, Salty, when you joined up?

The Germans were not allowed to have a military at all for quite awhile, a full decade, and well into the Cold War.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/decl ... 185912.htm

That said, you're right that the German military eventually did grow significantly throughout the next decades and peaked just after reunification. Then, like all the 'peace dividend' participants, downsized a lot.

[cradleandshoot]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.

+1

And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.

...& just the threat of a 2nd Trump term is prompting them to invest more in their own defense.
Poland is now up > 4% of GDP.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is prompting them, not Trump.

Of course, they're indeed enormously worried that Trump would indeed turn his back regardless of Poland's efforts at self-defense.

He'll say, 'well, it's their problem, they should have built their own nukes..' or some such excuse. Could anyone blame them if they did now?

My European friends, both American expats and others, are flabbergasted that America could even imagine putting Trump back in office, given all that's gone down. They thought he was an a-hole the first term, but the stakes are so much higher for a second term, they think it's flat crazy that Americans would consider doing it.

Why should any American care what your European friends think about anything? We fought a war way back when to liberate ourselves from European type thinking. My mom begged my father to join her in her trip to Europe. My dads worst memories of his young life came from fighting for his life in France.

Gotta say that's a pretty nonsensical response. The Europeans are by and large our allies, democracies, in a dangerous world in which there are definite adversaries, authoritarians and despots.

It's a big world, cradle, outside of Upstate NY. And it's good to have allies.

Our allies did drag us into 2 world wars. Hopefully the way things are going in Ukraine that won't wind up being 3. With allies like that who needs enemies. As far as NATO goes it seems the responsibility for all of the heavy lifting always winds up in our lap.

mmm, no, our allies were not the aggressors in either World War.
Nor are they in the Ukraine situation.
Let's be clear who did "drag us" into war.
It's the aggressors.

Again, the NATO "heavy lifting" is by American design...and we have profited immensely from our preeminent position and influence on the international trade system as a result. NATO is but one piece, but a very important piece.

I did not say our allies were the aggressors. I said their involvement in these 2 world wars dragged us into the 2 conflicts. For all intense and purpose WW1 was at a stalemate in 1917. That is when Woodrow Wilson use the reason that the Germans were trying to involve Mexico in the conflict that he sent over the " doughboys" to Europe. The battered German army couldn't handle the influx of fresh American soldiers.

You know already the Treaty of Versailles was the catalyst for the rise of Hitlers 3rd Reich. The English and the French demanded reparations from Germany that led to a breeding ground for the Nazis. While you may not technically consider that "aggressive" action by England and France it did lay the groundwork for WW2. Hence the rationale for the Marshall Plan to help rebuild Germany and the rest of war torn Europe. On a bit of a side note I watched 1917 this week on Netflix. It was a horrific although very well made movie that I found very difficult to watch.

[MDlaxfan76]

Got it. The threat from Russia is so great that it's too politically fraught for the EUros to defend themselves, so we have to do it for them.

Yeah, all that effort to make America the dominant superpower of democracy was a waste of time, effort, blood and treasure. F-Europe, F-democracy, F-world. You wasted your time and effort.

Yes, the Europeans are incapable of defending themselves against a superpower...and that's been by American design.

No I didn't, I helped win the Cold War & I celebrated it on a NATO base with my NATO allies.

Our EUro allies did it once. They can do it again. Don't enable their fecklessness & give them an easy way out.

Actually, at this point, as big of a piece of cr*p as the Russian army is?

NATO could beat Russia without the US, if the EU CHOSE to spend a reasonable amount on their militaries. And it's not a close call....EU's GDP dwarfs Russias.

The EU already spends 3x Russia does on defense/military spending. And that's continuing to go up a LOT with the current state of affairs. I'm all for them spending more as well as backing them up.

+1

And this is all Old Salt is saying....the EU needs to pay its fair share.

...& just the threat of a 2nd Trump term is prompting them to invest more in their own defense.
Poland is now up > 4% of GDP.

Putin's invasion of Ukraine is prompting them, not Trump.

Of course, they're indeed enormously worried that Trump would indeed turn his back regardless of Poland's efforts at self-defense.

He'll say, 'well, it's their problem, they should have built their own nukes..' or some such excuse. Could anyone blame them if they did now?

My European friends, both American expats and others, are flabbergasted that America could even imagine putting Trump back in office, given all that's gone down. They thought he was an a-hole the first term, but the stakes are so much higher for a second term, they think it's flat crazy that Americans would consider doing it.

Why should any American care what your European friends think about anything? We fought a war way back when to liberate ourselves from European type thinking. My mom begged my father to join her in her trip to Europe. My dads worst memories of his young life came from fighting for his life in France.

Gotta say that's a pretty nonsensical response. The Europeans are by and large our allies, democracies, in a dangerous world in which there are definite adversaries, authoritarians and despots.

It's a big world, cradle, outside of Upstate NY. And it's good to have allies.

Our allies did drag us into 2 world wars. Hopefully the way things are going in Ukraine that won't wind up being 3. With allies like that who needs enemies. As far as NATO goes it seems the responsibility for all of the heavy lifting always winds up in our lap.

mmm, no, our allies were not the aggressors in either World War.
Nor are they in the Ukraine situation.
Let's be clear who did "drag us" into war.
It's the aggressors.

Again, the NATO "heavy lifting" is by American design...and we have profited immensely from our preeminent position and influence on the international trade system as a result. NATO is but one piece, but a very important piece.

I did not say our allies were the aggressors. I said their involvement in these 2 world wars dragged us into the 2 conflicts. For all intense and purpose WW1 was at a stalemate in 1917. That is when Woodrow Wilson use the reason that the Germans were trying to involve Mexico in the conflict that he sent over the " doughboys" to Europe. The battered German army couldn't handle the influx of fresh American soldiers.

You know already the Treaty of Versailles was the catalyst for the rise of Hitlers 3rd Reich. The English and the French demanded reparations from Germany that led to a breeding ground for the Nazis. While you may not technically consider that "aggressive" action by England and France it did lay the groundwork for WW2. Hence the rationale for the Marshall Plan to help rebuild Germany and the rest of war torn Europe. On a bit of a side note I watched 1917 this week on Netflix. It was a horrific although very well made movie that I found very difficult to watch.

"involvement"? Being invaded and bombarded is not "dragging us" into it.

But that's the thing, cradle, friends and allies support one another against aggressors.
And that includes rallying to our side when we get hit... as occurred 9-11.
Only time article 5 has been invoked.

Yes, Treaty of Versailles was a diplomatic blunder.
Old school thinking. The Marshall Plan and how we handled Japan was very, very new school of thinking.

We created allies and trading partners of bitter foes.
And in so doing, created tremendous prosperity for ourselves.

[old salt]

How long had the Cold War been going, Salty, when you joined up?

The Cold War is generally considered to have lasted 44 years (1947-1991).
I served for the final 25 years of the Cold War + 2 years after (1966-2003).
I deployed to the Med & was then based in Europe when NATO strength (in combat power) was at it's zenith. (1980-1987)
Prior to that, my operational deployments were in the Pacific, focused on countering the Soviet threat there.