Page 61 of 191
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:31 am
by MDlaxfan76
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:20 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:54 pm
yup, a very small percentage of Jews, even smaller the group you describe, holding quite fundamentalist, exclusive views of these texts. Many millions of Jews disagree about the reading of the text. I guess they're all wrong according to you? That's a heck of a lot of generations of rabbis and scholars...and you're right, they're wrong?
I'm not Jewish, but that's in my Bible as well and I don't remotely come to that conclusion any more than I come to the conclusion that you must be a Christian to get to heaven based on Jesus' teachings according to certain later writers...doesn't stop some of my brethren quoting scripture as if "proof" of their claims...
BTW, can you
prove that that reading is the "only way" to properly understand it?...have you literally spoken to God, because otherwise, I'm pretty sure there is no absolute proof of any interpretation.
If you're so smart why don't you go ahead and have a debate with those rabbis? Show them how "smart" you are. I'll be very interested to see how great your knowledge of Hebrew is compared to them.
Did I claim to be "smart", much less "so smart"?
Heck, did I claim to be a scholar of sacred texts?
Did I claim to be personally equipped to engage in scholarly rabbinic midrash?
Did I even claim to claim to read Hebrew???
No, I did not. Dumb challenge.
My point, stated again, is simply that the vast majority of other Jewish scholars strongly disagree with the views you state. They're neither stupid nor ignorant of these sacred texts and their history of interpretation.
Again, can YOU "prove" you're right and these many millions of Jews and rabbis over the millennia are wrong in their interpretation of these sacred texts and passages? Maybe God speaks to you so clearly...I dunno... but that's the only way I know of to "prove" such a claim.
Look, you're free to hold what ever beliefs you may have, and to state them clearly if you wish, but most of us are here to have reasonable discussions based in some semblance of logic and facts, not simply articles of faith.
IMO you have all sorts of reasonable (IMO) arguments to make supporting your views about international affairs and the proper role for the US, but trying to tell us that the views of a very small minority of Jews are superior to and should supercede the views of the vast majority of Jews is very poor logic and, again IMO, NOT reasonable or helpful to your other arguments. It only diminishes them to bolster the impression that you are a rabid ideologue incapable of reasonable logic. That's too bad as some of your other arguments IMO are worth consideration.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:38 am
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:47 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:03 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:21 pm
I certainly don't think YOU are qualified to defend or critique Israel's intel services in any absolute certainty sense.
I'm doing neither. Can you say the same ?
Sheesh, everything I said had caveats and "I don't know" and "supposition" and "IMO"...saying something is reasonable, but that there are other reasonable explanations as well, and still others I find less plausible is a darn far cry for absolutism.
Contrast that with your total, absolute dismissal of Friedman's "supposition" and then attack on me personally for even saying it was "reasonable", and telling me I have no right to consider Israel's obvious intelligence miss and operational problems explainable the way these articles have suggested...man, what arrogance.
Let me ask you straight, is there any possibility that Friedman's assessment has merit?
And how the F would you know otherwise?
Friedman is doing what he usually does. He has friends in Israel who he agrees with, then he parrots their political bias.
Friedman offered no caveats. He was even more unhinged on MSNBC. He's too politically biased to offer objective analysis.
man, what hypocrisy from someone who posts all sorts of claptrap from supposed experts and commentators whose biases ooze out of every paragraph...
I'm fine with taking Friedman with a grain of salt. He has a perspective that IMO is worthy of consideration, not blind acceptance or adherence. I called the bit someone posted a "reasonable" take, but that there are other "reasonable" explanations for the intelligence and operational failure...and some that I think are less reasonable but not impossible.
I asked a straight pair of questions above. I don't think you answered them.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:10 am
by Kismet
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:38 am
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:47 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:03 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:21 pm
I certainly don't think YOU are qualified to defend or critique Israel's intel services in any absolute certainty sense.
I'm doing neither. Can you say the same ?
Sheesh, everything I said had caveats and "I don't know" and "supposition" and "IMO"...saying something is reasonable, but that there are other reasonable explanations as well, and still others I find less plausible is a darn far cry for absolutism.
Contrast that with your total, absolute dismissal of Friedman's "supposition" and then attack on me personally for even saying it was "reasonable", and telling me I have no right to consider Israel's obvious intelligence miss and operational problems explainable the way these articles have suggested...man, what arrogance.
Let me ask you straight, is there any possibility that Friedman's assessment has merit?
And how the F would you know otherwise?
Friedman is doing what he usually does. He has friends in Israel who he agrees with, then he parrots their political bias.
Friedman offered no caveats. He was even more unhinged on MSNBC. He's too politically biased to offer objective analysis.
man, what hypocrisy from someone who posts all sorts of claptrap from supposed experts and commentators whose biases ooze out of every paragraph...
I'm fine with taking Friedman with a grain of salt. He has a perspective that IMO is worthy of consideration, not blind acceptance or adherence. I called the bit someone posted a "reasonable" take, but that there are other "reasonable" explanations for the intelligence and operational failure...and some that I think are less reasonable but not impossible.
I asked a straight pair of questions above. I don't think you answered them.
Friedman's piece was an OP-ED - his OPINION which he is certainly entitled to just as everyone else is entitled to theirs.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:47 am
by youthathletics
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:30 pm
Thanks for spreading the gospel. Peace be with you.
Likewise:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CyUwM3ntzXV/
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:32 am
by Brooklyn
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:31 am
Did I claim to be "smart", much less "so smart"?
Heck, did I claim to be a scholar of sacred texts?
Did I claim to be personally equipped to engage in scholarly rabbinic midrash?
Did I even claim to claim to read Hebrew???
No, I did not. Dumb challenge.
My point, stated again, is simply that the vast majority of other Jewish scholars strongly disagree with the views you state. They're neither stupid nor ignorant of these sacred texts and their history of interpretation.
Again, can YOU "prove" you're right and these many millions of Jews and rabbis over the millennia are wrong in their interpretation of these sacred texts and passages? Maybe God speaks to you so clearly...I dunno... but that's the only way I know of to "prove" such a claim.
Look, you're free to hold what ever beliefs you may have, and to state them clearly if you wish, but most of us are here to have reasonable discussions based in some semblance of logic and facts, not simply articles of faith.
IMO you have all sorts of reasonable (IMO) arguments to make supporting your views about international affairs and the proper role for the US, but trying to tell us that the views of a very small minority of Jews are superior to and should supercede the views of the vast majority of Jews is very poor logic and, again IMO, NOT reasonable or helpful to your other arguments. It only diminishes them to bolster the impression that you are a rabid ideologue incapable of reasonable logic. That's too bad as some of your other arguments IMO are worth consideration.
'' not reasonable ... ideologue "
But you sure spend a lot of time reading my posts. As for "proving" anything, I have already provided links which conclusively prove the positions taken by anti zionist Jews. Over the years I have seen Orthodox scholars challenge other Jewish scholars on the merits of zionist ideology and how it conflicts with biblical teaching but the latter have been hesitant to accept such challenges. Too bad. It would be quite a treat to see zionists get verbally whipped in public. It would equally pleasing to see American zionist apologists like yourself embarrassed by those truths.
To suggest that anti zionist Jews are a small minority is absurd in view of the many hundreds of thousands of Jewish progressives who are openly sympathetic to Palestinians and other victimized groups. This is a point discussed before so that it need not be repeated.
Furthermore, if you can set aside your snobbery, let's bear in mind that none of that schitt that does on overseas is any of our godd@mn business. There simply is no excuse or justification for using our tax dollars to kill or to repress innocents abroad when we have so many problems going on at home. We continue to finance Israel's health care while denying it to the poor at home. To me, that's a political crime. The Constitution calls for disestablishment or what is commonly called separation of church and state. Israel is a self acknowledged religious state. As such, our federal dollars cannot legally be used to advance any religious institution whether that be a school, temple, or government. Therefore, the government is complicit in the crimes committed against Palestinians and others. This needs to end once and for all.
There simply is no excuse for Americans to send dollars overseas to Israel, Ukraine, or anywhere else. Our dollars belong here. Anything less is unpatriotic.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:42 am
by MDlaxfan76
Kismet wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:10 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:38 am
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:47 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:03 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:41 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 2:21 pm
I certainly don't think YOU are qualified to defend or critique Israel's intel services in any absolute certainty sense.
I'm doing neither. Can you say the same ?
Sheesh, everything I said had caveats and "I don't know" and "supposition" and "IMO"...saying something is reasonable, but that there are other reasonable explanations as well, and still others I find less plausible is a darn far cry for absolutism.
Contrast that with your total, absolute dismissal of Friedman's "supposition" and then attack on me personally for even saying it was "reasonable", and telling me I have no right to consider Israel's obvious intelligence miss and operational problems explainable the way these articles have suggested...man, what arrogance.
Let me ask you straight, is there any possibility that Friedman's assessment has merit?
And how the F would you know otherwise?
Friedman is doing what he usually does. He has friends in Israel who he agrees with, then he parrots their political bias.
Friedman offered no caveats. He was even more unhinged on MSNBC. He's too politically biased to offer objective analysis.
man, what hypocrisy from someone who posts all sorts of claptrap from supposed experts and commentators whose biases ooze out of every paragraph...
I'm fine with taking Friedman with a grain of salt. He has a perspective that IMO is worthy of consideration, not blind acceptance or adherence. I called the bit someone posted a "reasonable" take, but that there are other "reasonable" explanations for the intelligence and operational failure...and some that I think are less reasonable but not impossible.
I asked a straight pair of questions above. I don't think you answered them.
Friedman's piece was an OP-ED - his OPINION which he is certainly entitled to just as everyone else is entitled to theirs.
Of course. And to be assessed based on his expertise, connections and logic presented, not as some absolute and entire truth.
Personally, I find Friedman to be a serious, credible commentator albeit at times he gets a bit strident...I give him a general pass on that as I think he's generally just trying to get folks to listen, which is hard to do.
I don't think he has such overwhelming biases that he is willing to actually grossly misrepresent about matters the way I see some commentators wont to do, (including some of Salty's favorites). In general a straight shooter. Agree or disagree on the conclusions.
Salty obviously thinks otherwise, though my guess would be that's based on his own heavy biases and discomfort with Friedman's views.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:01 pm
by Brooklyn
Israeli Airstrikes Cripple Syria’s Two Main Airports
It marks at least the 26th time Israel has bombed Syria this year
https://news.antiwar.com/2023/10/12/isr ... -airports/
On Thursday, Israeli airstrikes hit Syria’s two international airports in Damascus and Aleppo, putting them both out of service, Syria’s SANA news agency has reported.
“The Israeli enemy carried out an air aggression on the two international airports of Damascus and Aleppo, taking them out of service, according to a military source,” the SANA report said.
“The source added that shelling the two airports that occurred simultaneously at 13:50 (1:50 pm local time) this afternoon caused material damage to the airstrips which resulted in being out of service,” the report added.
The UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) also reported simultaneous Israeli airstrikes on the Damascus and Aleppo airports. So far, no casualties have been reported in the attack.
The airstrikes come amid Israel’s bombardment of Gaza in the wake of the Hamas attack on southern Israel. A day earlier, Israel reported shelling from Syria and said it hit launch sites in the country with artillery.
But Israeli airstrikes on Syria are common, and Thursday’s bombing is not necessarily related to recent escalations. The attack marked at least the 26th time Israeli warplanes bombed Syria this year.
Israel claims its bombing campaign in Syria is part of an operation against Iran and Hezbollah, but the airstrikes often kill Syrians and hit civilian infrastructure. Syria’s airports have become a common target of Israeli warplanes, including in the wake of a devastating earthquake that hit Turkey and northwest Syria in February. Israeli airstrikes on the Aleppo airport after the earthquake cut off aid deliveries into the city.
Israel attacking neutrals in their continued campaign of aggression, imperialism, and hate. As always, such evils are met with silence from the international community.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:37 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Yes. More that and less tripe.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:49 pm
by NattyBohChamps04
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:01 pmIsrael attacking neutrals in their continued campaign of aggression, imperialism, and hate. As always, such evils are met with silence from the international community.
Yes, yes. "Neutrals" are famous for... checks notes... launching rockets and mortars at their neighbors, and funneling munitions from Iran to Hezbollah.
Very neutral behavior, shame on Israel.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:58 pm
by a fan
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:01 pm
Israel attacking neutrals in their continued campaign of aggression, imperialism, and hate. As always, such evils are met with silence from the international community.
Nah. Not silence.
What's your solution here? You spoke of one State solution.....does that mean what I think it means?
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:20 pm
by MDlaxfan76
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:32 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:31 am
Did I claim to be "smart", much less "so smart"?
Heck, did I claim to be a scholar of sacred texts?
Did I claim to be personally equipped to engage in scholarly rabbinic midrash?
Did I even claim to claim to read Hebrew???
No, I did not. Dumb challenge.
My point, stated again, is simply that the vast majority of other Jewish scholars strongly disagree with the views you state. They're neither stupid nor ignorant of these sacred texts and their history of interpretation.
Again, can YOU "prove" you're right and these many millions of Jews and rabbis over the millennia are wrong in their interpretation of these sacred texts and passages? Maybe God speaks to you so clearly...I dunno... but that's the only way I know of to "prove" such a claim.
Look, you're free to hold what ever beliefs you may have, and to state them clearly if you wish, but most of us are here to have reasonable discussions based in some semblance of logic and facts, not simply articles of faith.
IMO you have all sorts of reasonable (IMO) arguments to make supporting your views about international affairs and the proper role for the US, but trying to tell us that the views of a very small minority of Jews are superior to and should supercede the views of the vast majority of Jews is very poor logic and, again IMO, NOT reasonable or helpful to your other arguments. It only diminishes them to bolster the impression that you are a rabid ideologue incapable of reasonable logic. That's too bad as some of your other arguments IMO are worth consideration.
'' not reasonable ... ideologue "
But you sure spend a lot of time reading my posts. As for "proving" anything, I have already provided links which conclusively prove the positions taken by anti zionist Jews. Over the years I have seen Orthodox scholars challenge other Jewish scholars on the merits of zionist ideology and how it conflicts with biblical teaching but the latter have been hesitant to accept such challenges. Too bad. It would be quite a treat to see zionists get verbally whipped in public. It would equally pleasing to see American zionist apologists like yourself embarrassed by those truths.
To suggest that anti zionist Jews are a small minority is absurd in view of the many hundreds of thousands of Jewish progressives who are openly sympathetic to Palestinians and other victimized groups. This is a point discussed before so that it need not be repeated.
Furthermore, if you can set aside your snobbery, let's bear in mind that none of that schitt that does on overseas is any of our godd@mn business. There simply is no excuse or justification for using our tax dollars to kill or to repress innocents abroad when we have so many problems going on at home. We continue to finance Israel's health care while denying it to the poor at home. To me, that's a political crime. The Constitution calls for disestablishment or what is commonly called separation of church and state. Israel is a self acknowledged religious state. As such, our federal dollars cannot legally be used to advance any religious institution whether that be a school, temple, or government. Therefore, the government is complicit in the crimes committed against Palestinians and others. This needs to end once and for all.
There simply is no excuse for Americans to send dollars overseas to Israel, Ukraine, or anywhere else. Our dollars belong here. Anything less is unpatriotic.
Quick question: are you Satmar or other Orthodox sect?
More importantly, what makes you an expert in sacred texts much less on God's will?
Or asked a little gentler, what makes you more knowledgeable than the millions of Jews who disagree with you and these interpretations?
No, you've not remotely come close to "proving" anything at all except your own ideological zealotry. But we already knew that, didn't we?
Can you provide a citation on the "hundreds of thousands" of "Jewish progressives". etc? Is being "openly sympathetic to Palestinians and other victimized groups" make one anti-zionist??? Does that mean I'm anti-zionist because I'm openly sympathetic to the plight of innocent Palestinian civilians? Which I am.
I don't think so.
I was wondering about the views of Jews regarding Israel, how they breakdown, knowing darn well this is not a monolithic group. Couldn't find much about these Jewish progressives" who are anti-zionist...but views do indeed vary as to degree of support, sense of connection, etc.
Here's some PEW research on the question:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... on-israel/
Everything else I found also made pretty darn clear that the very few Jews who are actually anti-zionist are almost all Orthodox, mostly just the two groups we've discussed representing less than 6% of all Orthodox...themselves a minority of Jews.
But hey, surely there are
some other Jews who are anti-zionist as well...gotta be a couple here and there...
On your other arguments, they're interesting, though I disagree with your absolutist statements about what the Constitution allows or doesn't allow...clearly a whole heck of a lot of Constitutional scholars and SCOTUS Justices don't agree with you, but that's ok, you have a pattern of declaring absolute certainty of your views being superior to those of most anyone who is actually more expert than you. Par for the course.
I find your argument about American priorities at least more rational and I assume coming from a good place.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:38 pm
by Matnum PI
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:20 pm
...the very few Jews who are actually anti-zionist are almost all Orthodox, mostly just the two groups we've discussed representing less than 6% of all Orthodox...themselves a minority of Jews...
No way. MD, I can not be emphatic enough about this. No. way. The demographics at an Anti-Zionist rally will be teeny in terms of orthodox Jews. Neturei Karta. Period. And, within the orthodox world, they are universally treated as oddballs. At Saturdays rally in Times Square, it'll be 0% orthodox Jews because the rally is on Shabbas. If orthodox Jews were any real segment of this anti-Zionist population, they wouldn't have the rally on Shabbas. And, as I said before, Satmar chasidim are not anti-Zionist, They would *never*, NEVER go to an anti-Zionist rally. Never. Lots of orthodox Jews are not Zionistic. That doesn't make them anti-Zionists.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:20 pm
But hey, surely there are
some other Jews who are anti-zionist as well...gotta be a couple here and there...
At Saturday's rally, the largest representative group will be Palestinians and people with Palestinian connections. e.g. Palestinian families. Then other Arabs. As you'd expect, the majority of participants are people with connections to the nations that surround Israel: Palestinian americans, Iranian americans, Jordanian americans, etc. Also in attendance will be various college students, various activists and a large percentage will be... Jews. (Definitely not orthodox.) non-religious, assimilated, I can say a bunch more labels that they'd probably hate but... Jewish activists. A huge percentage of the people are arabs... and then Jewish activists. I could say several reasons why i think this is the case but it's not important. It just is. Another thing, almost all of the activists will be youths. Anti-Zionisism is big on college campuses. Again, I could say several reasons why i think this is the case but it's not important.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:58 pm
by Seacoaster(1)
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:02 pm
by MDlaxfan76
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:38 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:20 pm
...the very few Jews who are actually anti-zionist are almost all Orthodox, mostly just the two groups we've discussed representing less than 6% of all Orthodox...themselves a minority of Jews...
No way. MD, I can not be emphatic enough about this. No. way. The demographics at an Anti-Zionist rally will be teeny in terms of orthodox Jews. Neturei Karta. Period. And, within the orthodox world, they are universally treated as oddballs. At Saturdays rally in Times Square, it'll be 0% orthodox Jews because the rally is on Shabbas. If orthodox Jews were any real segment of this anti-Zionist population, they wouldn't have the rally on Shabbas. And, as I said before, Satmar chasidim are not anti-Zionist, They would *never*, NEVER go to an anti-Zionist rally. Never. Lots of orthodox Jews are not Zionistic. That doesn't make them anti-Zionists.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:20 pm
But hey, surely there are
some other Jews who are anti-zionist as well...gotta be a couple here and there...
At Saturday's rally, the largest representative group will be Palestinians and people with Palestinian connections. e.g. Palestinian families. Then other Arabs. As you'd expect, the majority of participants are people with connections to the nations that surround Israel: Palestinian americans, Iranian americans, Jordanian americans, etc. Also in attendance will be various college students, various activists and a large percentage will be... Jews. (Definitely not orthodox.) non-religious, assimilated, I can say a bunch more labels that they'd probably hate but... Jewish activists. A huge percentage of the people are arabs... and then Jewish activists. I could say several reasons why i think this is the case but it's not important. It just is. Another thing, almost all of the activists will be youths. Anti-Zionisism is big on college campuses. Again, I could say several reasons why i think this is the case but it's not important.
I dunno, Matnum, I keep seeing references to Satmar as anti-zionist...like this:
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... i-zionist/
But my point to Brooklyn wasn't that they are specifically so, indeed I was quite clear that most Orthodox are not...but it's reasonable to say that among the very few Jews who are actually anti-zionist, most are ultra-orthodox...very few others could be described as anti-zionist.
Perhaps you are arguing that Satmar, unlike the smaller group, would be better described today as not supportive of Israel, or are not 'pro-Israel' as opposed to "anti-zionist"? I have no dog in the hunt and have no issue with such nuance, if you think that applies better.
But sure, the vast majority of anti-zionists are NOT Jewish and I suspect couldn't care less about a tiny slice of such who happen to be Jews.
But sure, there are secular Jewish groups like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... st_Network
Brooklyn says there are hundreds of thousands of such Jewish progressives: who are anti-zionist. 300k would be 2% of Jews, what 900,000? 6%
I'm guessing under 2% is most likely.
But many more who are sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, sure.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:26 pm
by Brooklyn
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:49 pm
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:01 pmIsrael attacking neutrals in their continued campaign of aggression, imperialism, and hate. As always, such evils are met with silence from the international community.
Yes, yes. "Neutrals" are famous for... checks notes... launching rockets and mortars at their neighbors, and funneling munitions from Iran to Hezbollah.
Very neutral behavior, shame on Israel.
Syria has had its own civil war since time immemorial. History shows that it is most unwise to have two different battlefronts.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:30 pm
by Brooklyn
a fan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:58 pm
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:01 pm
Israel attacking neutrals in their continued campaign of aggression, imperialism, and hate. As always, such evils are met with silence from the international community.
Nah. Not silence.
What's your solution here? You spoke of one State solution.....does that mean what I think it means?
Should be self explanatory. Just allow citizenship and equal rights to all people within its borders. Had this happened as was proposed 60 years ago, by now Muslims would have been the majority and the country would have been at peace just as in the days of the Spanish Arabic dynasties.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:33 pm
by Matnum PI
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:02 pm
... Satmar, unlike the smaller group, would be better described today as not supportive of Israel, or are not 'pro-Israel' as opposed to "anti-zionist"? I have no dog in the hunt and have no issue with such nuance, if you think that applies better.
Yes
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:02 pm
Brooklyn says there are hundreds of thousands of such Jewish progressives: who are anti-zionist. 300k would be 2% of Jews, what 900,000? 6%.
I'm guessing under 2% is most likely. But many more who are sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, sure.
Sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, tons. Jews, in general, are an empathetic people. Tons. As for the Jewish Progressives who are actively anti-Zionist, it's much more than you're saying, less than what Brooklyn is saying. Look at the Student for Palestine-type causes on college campuses when they write up a letter saying to dismantle/boycott Israel etc. and look at the student names or the Officers of the club and, consistently, lots of arab names as well as a healthy number of Jews. I can say with confidence, that 0.00% of these Jews are orthodox. For the Jews on the west coast, in and out of college, it's pretty ridiculous. Extremely common to have Jews boycotting Israel. I don't know the exact number but... It's a lot. A strange thing...
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:38 pm
by jhu72
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:38 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:20 pm
...the very few Jews who are actually anti-zionist are almost all Orthodox, mostly just the two groups we've discussed representing less than 6% of all Orthodox...themselves a minority of Jews...
No way. MD, I can not be emphatic enough about this. No. way. The demographics at an Anti-Zionist rally will be teeny in terms of orthodox Jews. Neturei Karta. Period. And, within the orthodox world, they are universally treated as oddballs. At Saturdays rally in Times Square, it'll be 0% orthodox Jews because the rally is on Shabbas. If orthodox Jews were any real segment of this anti-Zionist population, they wouldn't have the rally on Shabbas. And, as I said before, Satmar chasidim are not anti-Zionist, They would *never*, NEVER go to an anti-Zionist rally. Never. Lots of orthodox Jews are not Zionistic. That doesn't make them anti-Zionists.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:20 pm
But hey, surely there are
some other Jews who are anti-zionist as well...gotta be a couple here and there...
At Saturday's rally, the largest representative group will be Palestinians and people with Palestinian connections. e.g. Palestinian families. Then other Arabs. As you'd expect, the majority of participants are people with connections to the nations that surround Israel: Palestinian americans, Iranian americans, Jordanian americans, etc. Also in attendance will be various college students, various activists and a large percentage will be... Jews. (Definitely not orthodox.) non-religious, assimilated, I can say a bunch more labels that they'd probably hate but... Jewish activists. A huge percentage of the people are arabs... and then Jewish activists. I could say several reasons why i think this is the case but it's not important. It just is. Another thing, almost all of the activists will be youths. Anti-Zionisism is big on college campuses. Again, I could say several reasons why i think this is the case but it's not important.
... all I know is my experience interacting with a Jewish extended family (my wife's) and my years in academia at "elite" research universities. Very few hardcore Zionist - like 1. Could know a lot of Zionist "leaning" folks, but the vast majority of Jews I know have been very anti-hardcore Zionism. I think feelings change with time. More traditional liberal Jews given the situation in Israel have become more understanding / less anti-hardcore Zionist, but I am not sure I or they would consider themselves Zionists, but I have never asked the question.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:59 pm
by a fan
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:30 pm
Should be self explanatory. Just allow citizenship and equal rights to all people within its borders. Had this happened as was proposed 60 years ago, by now Muslims would have been the majority and the country would have been at peace just as in the days of the Spanish Arabic dynasties.
You want no Israel.
You always have to ask this question of the far left pro-Palestinian crowd. You want the Jewish population wiped out from the region, Brookie.
Gee, why are the Israeli's fighting, Brook? Please, by all means, act like they're insane for not wanting to be wiped out.
Re: Israel and Zionism
Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:00 pm
by Brooklyn
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:20 pm
Quick question: are you Satmar or other Orthodox sect?
More importantly, what makes you an expert in sacred texts much less on God's will?
Or asked a little gentler, what makes you more knowledgeable than the millions of Jews who disagree with you and these interpretations?
No, you've not remotely come close to "proving" anything at all except your own ideological zealotry. But we already knew that, didn't we?
Can you provide a citation on the "hundreds of thousands" of "Jewish progressives". etc? Is being "openly sympathetic to Palestinians and other victimized groups" make one anti-zionist??? Does that mean I'm anti-zionist because I'm openly sympathetic to the plight of innocent Palestinian civilians? Which I am.
I don't think so.
I was wondering about the views of Jews regarding Israel, how they breakdown, knowing darn well this is not a monolithic group. Couldn't find much about these Jewish progressives" who are anti-zionist...but views do indeed vary as to degree of support, sense of connection, etc.
Here's some PEW research on the question:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... on-israel/
Everything else I found also made pretty darn clear that the very few Jews who are actually anti-zionist are almost all Orthodox, mostly just the two groups we've discussed representing less than 6% of all Orthodox...themselves a minority of Jews.
But hey, surely there are
some other Jews who are anti-zionist as well...gotta be a couple here and there...
On your other arguments, they're interesting, though I disagree with your absolutist statements about what the Constitution allows or doesn't allow...clearly a whole heck of a lot of Constitutional scholars and SCOTUS Justices don't agree with you, but that's ok, you have a pattern of declaring absolute certainty of your views being superior to those of most anyone who is actually more expert than you. Par for the course.
I find your argument about American priorities at least more rational and I assume coming from a good place.
"experts on Jewish texts"
Never said I was. But they claim to be and openly discuss their views all over the Internet. Don't argue with me, argue with them if you're so smart.
Don't do Torah. Never have.
"hundreds of thousands" of Jewish progressives
over 400K + members ~ never has been a secret, pal. That doesn't even include the readers of its articles such as myself > so much more than the "couple here and there". And there are plenty more groups like it. If you want to know who they are you need to do your homework. example:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-tear-in ... massacres/
As for disestablishment, the Constitution is perfectly clear. Many others who are far more intelligent than I have come to the same conclusion over the years:
https://www.amazon.com/SURPRISE-Millita ... B01MQVR7XI
I have not read this book so I cannot say for certain whether it can be understood by laymen. But give it a look so that you can learn the truth.
"I find your argument about American priorities at least more rational and I assume coming from a good place."
That, at least, is well stated.
