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Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:26 pm The best HS lacrosse in the country is on Long Island in my opinion. MD is a close second. Many HS teams have 6 or more top D1 recruits. To survive and thrive as a top talent/recruit you need to have a tenacity that not all kids have. Look at the way the Weeks twins, Urbank, Medjid, Smith, Schleicher, Roman all play. The NW championship teams also had a handful of gritty LI stars. LI players are wired differently in my opinion. They are very skilled but rely on an innate desire to compete and win. Championships are won largely by grit, determination and ground balls at the end of the day. That is what BC had more so than other teams. Oh btw many of the top tough players on Cuse and NC are also LI kids.

generalities like this ^^often lead to overlooking great players from other areas. When my first D was recruited, there was alot of this sentiment (both overt and implied). Many schools only went to see the LI girls play and missed on lots of players, because of the thoughts that LI girls were "wired differently". I am not saying your comments are not accurate, just that many people around lacrosse feel exactly that way.

I totally agree with this statement...this was close to what every coach has told me through all the recruiting the Ds have been through.

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:26 pm ...very skilled but rely on an innate desire to compete and win. Championships are won largely by grit, determination and ground balls at the end of the day.

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:26 pm The best HS lacrosse in the country is on Long Island in my opinion. MD is a close second. Many HS teams have 6 or more top D1 recruits. To survive and thrive as a top talent/recruit you need to have a tenacity that not all kids have. Look at the way the Weeks twins, Urbank, Medjid, Smith, Schleicher, Roman all play. The NW championship teams also had a handful of gritty LI stars. LI players are wired differently in my opinion. They are very skilled but rely on an innate desire to compete and win. Championships are won largely by grit, determination and ground balls at the end of the day. That is what BC had more so than other teams. Oh btw many of the top tough players on Cuse and NC are also LI kids.

100% right. All those Maryland titles were carried squarely on the backs of all their Li kids…………

I'm not taking anything away from what Maryland has accomplished, but let's be fair. They have had a huge competitive advantage by being an inexpensive in state school for all the great MD talent. It's almost 70 percent cheaper than schools like NW and BC. For that reason they should always have more talent than the private schools that are largely limited by having to divvy up 12 scholarships. If all the best LI kids went to the same school they would win a ton of championships as well. I stand by the points I made about LI kids. Would be interesting to see the number of LI kids vs MD kids that played in the final four. The higher end talent was definitely more LI.

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:23 pm I'm not taking anything away from what Maryland has accomplished, but let's be fair. They have had a huge competitive advantage by being an inexpensive in state school for all the great MD talent. It's almost 70 percent cheaper than schools like NW and BC. For that reason they should always have more talent than the private schools that are largely limited by having to divvy up 12 scholarships. If all the best LI kids went to the same school they would win a ton of championships as well. I stand by the points I made about LI kids. Would be interesting to see the number of LI kids vs MD kids that played in the final four. The higher end talent was definitely more LI.

If this is true then LI talent should dominate the D1 first team AA list...hint. They didn't. How about dominating the tewarton winners? If this were true then I would expect the SUNY D1 team on LI that has a top 3 coach (your statement.... I agree he is an excellent coach) to have several National championships since it is almost exclusively made up of LI talent. Sure alot of talent leaves LI but alot of talent leaves Md as well.

Now don't get the idea I think LI girls lax is not elite. It is. I just believe what you ascribe to high end talent is highly dependent on the sheer number of young ladies that play the sport downstate. I also ascribe to the notion that any kid that plays at the level we are discussing at the D1 level has the grit and determination you indicate is possessed more so by LI kids. If it wasn't for the grit and determination of 2 non LI kids on BC during their run for the natty we would not even be having this conversation.

Bart wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:10 pm ...the tewarton winners

*Tewaaraton

Bart wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:10 pm If it wasn't for the grit and determination of 2 non LI kids on BC during their run for the natty we would not even be having this conversation.

That's a DANG good point right there.

Please don't compare SB to MD. For years MD got the best of the best in state kids. That has never been the case at SB. Appuzzo never considered SB whereas Cummings, Whittle, Stuckenburg etc dreamed of playing for MD since they were little. The best LI kids don't consider SB. That is a fact. That is why it is remarkable what JS does with that program. I don't think we are disagreeing very much. There is great talent everywhere - look at CN and Carney from Texas, CW from Florida, Izzy Scane from Michigan. A great recuitor finds those players. That being said LI kids bring an extra level of grit and determination when it comes to competing. Just watch the way Simpkins and Urbank battled during their 4 head to head games this year. They wanted to kill one another. Same is true of Schleicher and Tyrrell. You see it at the LI youth level, club, UA, college etc. Every coach knows it. Why do you think LI players are the first to get recruited. My friends daughters YJ team had about 18 players committed by the time the top MD club had 6. I'm not saying that was right but it just shows how college coaches view top LI talent. It takes a full team to win and players from around the country, but your odds of winning are certainly better when you have legit LI players in your starting line-up.

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:51 pm Please don't compare SB to MD. For years MD got the best of the best in state kids. That has never been the case at SB. Appuzzo never considered SB whereas Cummings, Whittle, Stuckenburg etc dreamed of playing for MD since they were little. The best LI kids don't consider SB. That is a fact. That is why it is remarkable what JS does with that program. I don't think we are disagreeing very much. There is great talent everywhere - look at CN and Carney from Texas, CW from Florida, Izzy Scane from Michigan. A great recuitor finds those players. That being said LI kids bring an extra level of grit and determination when it comes to competing. Just watch the way Simpkins and Urbank battled during their 4 head to head games this year. They wanted to kill one another. Same is true of Schleicher and Tyrrell. You see it at the LI youth level, club, UA, college etc. Every coach knows it. Why do you think LI players are the first to get recruited. My friends daughters YJ team had about 18 players committed by the time the top MD club had 6. I'm not saying that was right but it just shows how college coaches view top LI talent. It takes a full team to win and players from around the country, but your odds of winning are certainly better when you have legit LI players in your starting line-up.

Fun fact Cummings actually wanted to go pretty much anywhere but Maryland. She wanted to be farther from home, but Reese and the rest of the coaching staff worked really hard to recruit her. Her parents wanted her to go on a visit despite Taylor telling them it was a waste of gas money, and the coaching staff were able to sell her on MD.

And BC is definitely working with more than just the "12 scholarships". Most large D1 athletic school in a power 5 conference usually are (which means Maryland likely does too). Through their large alumni networks and fundraising there's usually a lot more money than the "12 scholarships". BC is one of the only programs that lists them on their athlete's bios.

"Pavlakis Family Flynn Fund Scholar"
"The Walter F. Murphy, Jr. '67 Memorial Scholarship Fund"
"Kopfler Flynn Fund Scholar"
etc. etc.

I've always wondered if a LI kids being able to play varsity sports as 7th or 8th graders has helped give them that edge over the years. It may not be in all LI schools, but you hear it frequently when a prolific player from LI's bio is being recited "varsity starter since 8th grade" (Katie Hoeg & Cortney Fortunato are two examples). Wurzburger was able to do it in LF too. I just know that PIAA rules don't allow it in PA. I think it's possible at private schools not a part of the PIAA, but I'm not 100%, maybe 8m could help me out on that one. It probably isn't that big of a factor to say it impacts entire classes coming out of LI as a whole, but I always thought, for the individual, it was a unique opportunity to get to play at that level 1 or 2 years earlier.

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:51 pm Please don't compare SB to MD. For years MD got the best of the best in state kids. That has never been the case at SB. Appuzzo never considered SB whereas Cummings, Whittle, Stuckenburg etc dreamed of playing for MD since they were little. The best LI kids don't consider SB. That is a fact. That is why it is remarkable what JS does with that program. I don't think we are disagreeing very much. There is great talent everywhere - look at CN and Carney from Texas, CW from Florida, Izzy Scane from Michigan. A great recuitor finds those players. That being said LI kids bring an extra level of grit and determination when it comes to competing. Just watch the way Simpkins and Urbank battled during their 4 head to head games this year. They wanted to kill one another. Same is true of Schleicher and Tyrrell. You see it at the LI youth level, club, UA, college etc. Every coach knows it. Why do you think LI players are the first to get recruited. My friends daughters YJ team had about 18 players committed by the time the top MD club had 6. I'm not saying that was right but it just shows how college coaches view top LI talent. It takes a full team to win and players from around the country, but your odds of winning are certainly better when you have legit LI players in your starting line-up.

so much to disagree with here. yes YJ is a good program (not sure about the franchising, but that is a different conversation.)

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:51 pm That being said LI kids bring an extra level of grit and determination when it comes to competing.

Nope, that isn't localized to Long Island. Just not a true statement. you can pick your examples, and yes they are great, but that doesnt equate to all LI kids being super studs...Come on man...

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:51 pm
You see it at the LI youth level, club, UA, college etc. Every coach knows it. Why do you think LI players are the first to get recruited. My friends daughters YJ team had about 18 players committed by the time the top MD club had 6. I'm not saying that was right but it just shows how college coaches view top LI talent. It takes a full team to win and players from around the country, but your odds of winning are certainly better when you have legit LI players in your starting line-up.

Wow, another generalized statement that just isnt true. YJ and Top Guns often get beat by clubs like Hero's, M&D, Capital, Skywalkers, etc. So, LI club level players are not necessarily the best. They are good and certain teams can be ranked at the top (YJ Spallina 2025) but in that specific example it is because some better non-LI clubs are HS aged only (Capital/Skywalkers). As I mentioned in my previous post, yes, there is a ease of recruiting that some coaches take focusing on LI. That didn't work well for Virginia Tech before Sung. That coach only recruited LI and didn't have grit or determination on the field, and of course, no significant wins.

Commitment numbers is again a false flag statement. We agree that LI girls get more looks than MD or PA girls, but that doesn't equate to quality of the player. It doesnt mean that the your odds of winning are better with LI players in your line up. That is silly....

My D's team, which is an OK team in D1, has 3 players out of 34 from Long Island. 2 are starters. Are you telling me that they would be significantly better if they only recruited more YJ and Top Gun players? If there were 15 LI gals, would they be a more gritty and determined team? Would they have better odds of winning?

I am sorry, but your good points devolved into LI rooting and chest pounding. I will agree that your comments about grit and determination are extremely important, but Long Island doesn't have the monopoly on those character/physical traits.

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:23 pm

Bart wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:10 pm If it wasn't for the grit and determination of 2 non LI kids on BC during their run for the natty we would not even be having this conversation.

That's a DANG good point right there.

Completely agree. You look at those two and are reminded rhat you can’t sleep on girls from non hotbed areas. A lot of the times those players are extra gritty and determined because so often they are looked down upon just because of where they’re from and that makes them want it more

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:51 pm Please don't compare SB to MD. For years MD got the best of the best in state kids. That has never been the case at SB. Appuzzo never considered SB whereas Cummings, Whittle, Stuckenburg etc dreamed of playing for MD since they were little. The best LI kids don't consider SB. That is a fact. That is why it is remarkable what JS does with that program. I don't think we are disagreeing very much. There is great talent everywhere - look at CN and Carney from Texas, CW from Florida, Izzy Scane from Michigan. A great recuitor finds those players. That being said LI kids bring an extra level of grit and determination when it comes to competing. Just watch the way Simpkins and Urbank battled during their 4 head to head games this year. They wanted to kill one another. Same is true of Schleicher and Tyrrell. You see it at the LI youth level, club, UA, college etc. Every coach knows it. Why do you think LI players are the first to get recruited. My friends daughters YJ team had about 18 players committed by the time the top MD club had 6. I'm not saying that was right but it just shows how college coaches view top LI talent. It takes a full team to win and players from around the country, but your odds of winning are certainly better when you have legit LI players in your starting line-up.

First, it is a numbers game. LI just has more kids playing. show me the data on number of kids playing vs. committed. How many kids show up to try out for the Yellow Jackets? say vs Rochester?

The bolded is interesting. If that is the case then why aren't all three division AA's riddled with LI kids?

I was going to ask if the LI kids on SU and UNC somehow lost their grit and determination but that would be absurd. They didn't. So I have come up with something to test your statement above (bolded) We are going to call it the LI grit and determination factor. In it we will compare the number of LI kids starting for each team. We will then use that as a goal differential determined by the LI grit and determination score. I do not have alot of data to work with right now but to start I have it that BC out LI'd UNC by 3 with a one goal margin of victory. SU was also out LI'd by 3 by BC but they had a 6 goal differential. So if I average it out then each LI+ player BC had we can estimate each LI kid in excess should be worth about 1 goal. So for every LI player a team has in excess of the opposing team they should win by the number of playeres x 1 goal. This will be called the LI grit and determination factor and should be very helpful in determining the outcome of games. Of course the LI grit and determination factor will need to be refined as we generate more data but it is a starting point. We can test it out for every game in the top 10...but not SB as they do not seem to count

Somehow there is a gummy wager in there but I have not figured it out yet. When I do I will let you know

Bart wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:53 pm ...to start I have it that BC out LI'd UNC by 3 with a one goal margin of victory. SU was also out LI'd by 3 by BC but they had a 6 goal differential. So if I average it out then each LI+ player BC had we can estimate each LI kid in excess should be worth about 1 goal. So for every LI player a team has in excess of the opposing team they should win by the number of playeres x 1 goal. This will be called the LI grit and determination factor and...

Bart wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:53 pm First, it is a numbers game. LI just has more kids playing. show me the data on number of kids playing vs. committed. How many kids show up to try out for the Yellow Jackets? say vs Rochester?

Also noteworthy - big time club programs will take kids on their team that are not from the area or even the state. Jenny Levy's kid plays for M&D and there's been a vlog feature on ILWomen about a player from Minnesota that plays on YJ. This is a common practice in all travel sports at the recruiting age, but should be taken into account.

One last clarification regarding LI players. I'm not talking about "all or most LI players". Like most areas the overwhelming majority of players on LI are not very good and do not have the grit and determination factor I am referring to. I'm talking about the upper Tier high D1 prospect. We can agree to disagree but in my experience having multiple D1 daughters that played against LI for years there is somewhat unique about the upper Tier D1 LI lax player. I think having 7 of them on BC helped them navigate their way from a rank of #17 to National Champs. It certainly was not the only factor but those kids had fearlessness , confidence and a tenacity that is needed to compete at the highest level.

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:03 pm One last clarification regarding LI players. I'm not talking about "all or most LI players". Like most areas the overwhelming majority of players on LI are not very good and do not have the grit and determination factor I am referring to. I'm talking about the upper Tier high D1 prospect. We can agree to disagree but in my experience having multiple D1 daughters that played against LI for years there is somewhat unique about the upper Tier D1 LI lax player. I think having 7 of them on BC helped them navigate their way from a rank of #17 to National Champs. It certainly was not the only factor but those kids had fearlessness , confidence and a tenacity that is needed to compete at the highest level.

I cant remember in what publication it was...IL or Lax Mag, but a few years ago...Jenny Levy was talking about Hoeg/Ortega and mentioned how LI players are a Dif bunch than players from other areas....better stickwork and more aggressive or something....I think it was in 2019/2020.

Philly kids better than LI and MD.

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:03 pm One last clarification regarding LI players. I'm not talking about "all or most LI players". Like most areas the overwhelming majority of players on LI are not very good and do not have the grit and determination factor I am referring to. I'm talking about the upper Tier high D1 prospect. We can agree to disagree but in my experience having multiple D1 daughters that played against LI for years there is somewhat unique about the upper Tier D1 LI lax player. I think having 7 of them on BC helped them navigate their way from a rank of #17 to National Champs. It certainly was not the only factor but those kids had fearlessness , confidence and a tenacity that is needed to compete at the highest level.

What you are describing is exactly what separates the average prospect from any upper Tier D1 women's lacrosse prospect. It is not endemic to LI kids.

Bart wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:34 am

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:03 pm One last clarification regarding LI players. I'm not talking about "all or most LI players". Like most areas the overwhelming majority of players on LI are not very good and do not have the grit and determination factor I am referring to. I'm talking about the upper Tier high D1 prospect. We can agree to disagree but in my experience having multiple D1 daughters that played against LI for years there is somewhat unique about the upper Tier D1 LI lax player. I think having 7 of them on BC helped them navigate their way from a rank of #17 to National Champs. It certainly was not the only factor but those kids had fearlessness , confidence and a tenacity that is needed to compete at the highest level.

What you are describing is exactly what separates the average prospect from any upper Tier D1 women's lacrosse prospect. It is not endemic to LI kids.

Dr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:07 am

Bart wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:34 am

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:03 pm One last clarification regarding LI players. I'm not talking about "all or most LI players". Like most areas the overwhelming majority of players on LI are not very good and do not have the grit and determination factor I am referring to. I'm talking about the upper Tier high D1 prospect. We can agree to disagree but in my experience having multiple D1 daughters that played against LI for years there is somewhat unique about the upper Tier D1 LI lax player. I think having 7 of them on BC helped them navigate their way from a rank of #17 to National Champs. It certainly was not the only factor but those kids had fearlessness , confidence and a tenacity that is needed to compete at the highest level.

What you are describing is exactly what separates the average prospect from any upper Tier D1 women's lacrosse prospect. It is not endemic to LI kids.

I believe Cuse has 15 or so Long Island players as well. Something coaches like about the style/attitude I assume

Cagekeeper wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 10:47 am

Dr. Tact wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:07 am

Bart wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:34 am

Lax101 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:03 pm One last clarification regarding LI players. I'm not talking about "all or most LI players". Like most areas the overwhelming majority of players on LI are not very good and do not have the grit and determination factor I am referring to. I'm talking about the upper Tier high D1 prospect. We can agree to disagree but in my experience having multiple D1 daughters that played against LI for years there is somewhat unique about the upper Tier D1 LI lax player. I think having 7 of them on BC helped them navigate their way from a rank of #17 to National Champs. It certainly was not the only factor but those kids had fearlessness , confidence and a tenacity that is needed to compete at the highest level.

What you are describing is exactly what separates the average prospect from any upper Tier D1 women's lacrosse prospect. It is not endemic to LI kids.

I believe Cuse has 15 or so Long Island players as well. Something coaches like about the style/attitude I assume

That's not really surprising though is it? LI kids look at Syracuse as a destination school. Most girls from MD have no interest in spending 4 years in Syracuse.