Taliban reclaims Afghanistan

[MDlaxfan76]

My wife and I are helping to sponsor an Afghan family being resettled in the state. Nothing wrong with helping those that need help.

+1 that is awesome

Yeah nice. Nice to have resources to do so...count your blessings. Too bad TLD felt the need to come on and wave his flag about it. His altruism would have been so much more impressive without the self-promotion. The need to feel accepted, or I'm better than you virtue signaling by some on here, is amazing. Just my opinion...

Given the tenor of some of the posts, seems to me that posting about taking actual actions of kindness and welcome are more than 'virtue signaling'; they encourage others to step up as well...but, hey, if you want to think of it that way, maybe we could use more such 'virtue'...

Here's another small one, one of our business/medical advisors runs a large 501c-3 that is doing a major support effort for incoming Afghans in DC area. He asked whether I knew any large retailers which might donate various needed pharmacy needs, Ensure, etc...I do, and am hooking him up. Small thing.

If you don't have financial "resources" tech, you might consider some time...friendly welcomes will matter.

[seacoaster]

My wife and I are helping to sponsor an Afghan family being resettled in the state. Nothing wrong with helping those that need help.

+1 that is awesome

Yeah nice. Nice to have resources to do so...count your blessings. Too bad TLD felt the need to come on and wave his flag about it. His altruism would have been so much more impressive without the self-promotion. The need to feel accepted, or I'm better than you virtue signaling by some on here, is amazing. Just my opinion...

Given the tenor of some of the posts, seems to me that posting about taking actual actions of kindness and welcome are more than 'virtue signaling'; they encourage others to step up as well...but, hey, if you want to think of it that way, maybe we could use more such 'virtue'...

Here's another small one, one of our business/medical advisors runs a large 501c-3 that is doing a major support effort for incoming Afghans in DC area. He asked whether I knew any large retailers which might donate various needed pharmacy needs, Ensure, etc...I do, and am hooking him up. Small thing.

If you don't have financial "resources" tech, you might consider some time...friendly welcomes will matter.

Yup. I think YA had the right response to this.

Well done, Mr. and Mrs. TLD.

[Farfromgeneva]

My wife and I are helping to sponsor an Afghan family being resettled in the state. Nothing wrong with helping those that need help.

+1 that is awesome

Yeah nice. Nice to have resources to do so...count your blessings. Too bad TLD felt the need to come on and wave his flag about it. His altruism would have been so much more impressive without the self-promotion. The need to feel accepted, or I'm better than you virtue signaling by some on here, is amazing. Just my opinion...

Given the tenor of some of the posts, seems to me that posting about taking actual actions of kindness and welcome are more than 'virtue signaling'; they encourage others to step up as well...but, hey, if you want to think of it that way, maybe we could use more such 'virtue'...

Here's another small one, one of our business/medical advisors runs a large 501c-3 that is doing a major support effort for incoming Afghans in DC area. He asked whether I knew any large retailers which might donate various needed pharmacy needs, Ensure, etc...I do, and am hooking him up. Small thing.

If you don't have financial "resources" tech, you might consider some time...friendly welcomes will matter.

Looking at his response elsewhere this am it’s clear he wants to talk at people and not have a discourse. Having learned a lot about depression and paranoia (aka dialectic behavior and thinking) he sounds like some things I’ve experienced...

My son is doing things for people with sweat equity with his Cub Scout troop. I’m sure this great man can do so as well.

[MDlaxfan76]

I linked to the numbers, adjusted to 1996 dollars. Including inflation, obviously.

...& according to your link, there were fewer of those constant dollars available 76-79 than in the years before & after. Fact.
During a time of rising military pay & energy prices.

0.5% less than the year prior, about 1-1.5%% less than the 4 years avg. and no, those are inflation adjusted dollars. Lots of money.

I guess in your world, as the military was shrinking fast from its Vietnam era expenditures, they should have actually spent more money...

I just think you might consider that there was plenty of money, and focus more on how it was being prioritized. I think that likely remains the biggest challenge in defense budget management. Not insufficient $.

This would be the nicest reply you can get and it’s written by Aaron Sorkin but ignores or misunderstands everything from procurement to the iron triangle and revolving door.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7R9kH_HOUXM

Great scene. "It's because you're blonde."

My point isn't that $ aren't needed to have equipment maintained to the standards needed in extreme requirements, but rather that when you're spending hundreds of billions of dollars, the choices on priorities matter much more than simply the raw total.

[kramerica.inc]

I've said this before: Taking in and being welcoming to those in REAL need builds the BEST type of Americans and is what America should continue to do best. It is what makes America great in the short term and exceptional in the long run. Those refugees and their families will likely turn into examples of "American exceptionalism" in less than a generation.

[Brooklyn]

My post was more that all these declining cities and towns in places like Upstate and WNY conflate hard life with tough but wait until they see people who came from really hard lives and are really tough.

Was watching yet another of those right wing channels on youtube where a commentator said something interesting about an area (I believe he said in Ohio) which had been suffering urban decay for a long while. Supposedly, refugees from the Iraq were moved into the area by the government which immediately subsidized housing and area development. Because of that the area is now thriving. For years the government did nothing for the poor in that area but suddenly took interest in it as a way to resettle those refugees.

This story rings true to me as we have seen that locally in the Twin Cities. Refugees from South East Asian and East African wars were resettled in ghetto areas such as the Midway in St Paul where I lived for 5 years. These people were given money to build up businesses and for housing. Poor folks from the area had been neglected by the government for many years but refugees were given money, housing, business development, tax breaks, and the district is thriving.

Don't be too surprised if the government follows the same pattern there in WNY. Refugees who are resettled there will likely be given truckloads of financial support and development from Washington DC. Oh by the way, according to a TV report just a few weeks ago a suburban church group took in a hand full of Afghan refugees. Immediately, they were given housing and jobs. One wonders why this church did not do the same for American refugees from storm disasters in Louisiana or Puerto Rico. But it is likely what you will see in your area and elsewhere.

[Farfromgeneva]

I linked to the numbers, adjusted to 1996 dollars. Including inflation, obviously.

...& according to your link, there were fewer of those constant dollars available 76-79 than in the years before & after. Fact.
During a time of rising military pay & energy prices.

0.5% less than the year prior, about 1-1.5%% less than the 4 years avg. and no, those are inflation adjusted dollars. Lots of money.

I guess in your world, as the military was shrinking fast from its Vietnam era expenditures, they should have actually spent more money...

I just think you might consider that there was plenty of money, and focus more on how it was being prioritized. I think that likely remains the biggest challenge in defense budget management. Not insufficient $.

This would be the nicest reply you can get and it’s written by Aaron Sorkin but ignores or misunderstands everything from procurement to the iron triangle and revolving door.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7R9kH_HOUXM

Great scene. "It's because you're blonde."

My point isn't that $ aren't needed to have equipment maintained to the standards needed in extreme requirements, but rather that when you're spending hundreds of billions of dollars, the choices on priorities matter much more than simply the raw total.

Bigger picture talking notional anything is useless to me. Percentages, proportioned and other metrics that better demonstrate choices regarding opportunity cost made is relevant.

[Typical Lax Dad]

My wife and I are helping to sponsor an Afghan family being resettled in the state. Nothing wrong with helping those that need help.

+1 that is awesome

Yeah nice. Nice to have resources to do so...count your blessings. Too bad TLD felt the need to come on and wave his flag about it. His altruism would have been so much more impressive without the self-promotion. The need to feel accepted, or I'm better than you virtue signaling by some on here, is amazing. Just my opinion...

Responded to China helping Afghans. I do a lot of charitable work and on the board of NFP for a youth organization in a tough area that does great work. Glad to see others pitching in. Maybe my post encourages someone else to look into it.

I am better than you. Just my opinion.

[Farfromgeneva]

My wife and I are helping to sponsor an Afghan family being resettled in the state. Nothing wrong with helping those that need help.

+1 that is awesome

Yeah nice. Nice to have resources to do so...count your blessings. Too bad TLD felt the need to come on and wave his flag about it. His altruism would have been so much more impressive without the self-promotion. The need to feel accepted, or I'm better than you virtue signaling by some on here, is amazing. Just my opinion...

Responded to China helping Afghans. I do a lot of charitable work and on the board of NFP for a youth organization in a tough area that does great work. Glad to see others pitching in. Maybe my post encourages someone else to look into it.

I am better than you. Just my opinion.

Spit my fifth cup of coffee out on the last lines

[MDlaxfan76]

My wife and I are helping to sponsor an Afghan family being resettled in the state. Nothing wrong with helping those that need help.

+1 that is awesome

Yeah nice. Nice to have resources to do so...count your blessings. Too bad TLD felt the need to come on and wave his flag about it. His altruism would have been so much more impressive without the self-promotion. The need to feel accepted, or I'm better than you virtue signaling by some on here, is amazing. Just my opinion...

Responded to China helping Afghans. I do a lot of charitable work and on the board of NFP for a youth organization in a tough area that does great work. Glad to see others pitching in. Maybe my post encourages someone else to look into it.

I am better than you. Just my opinion.

just my opinion...

Bolded is a good 'signal'...

[Farfromgeneva]

My wife and I are helping to sponsor an Afghan family being resettled in the state. Nothing wrong with helping those that need help.

+1 that is awesome

Yeah nice. Nice to have resources to do so...count your blessings. Too bad TLD felt the need to come on and wave his flag about it. His altruism would have been so much more impressive without the self-promotion. The need to feel accepted, or I'm better than you virtue signaling by some on here, is amazing. Just my opinion...

Responded to China helping Afghans. I do a lot of charitable work and on the board of NFP for a youth organization in a tough area that does great work. Glad to see others pitching in. Maybe my post encourages someone else to look into it.

I am better than you. Just my opinion.

just my opinion...

Bolded is a good 'signal'...

Ironically he’s getting crapped on by a person who believe themself to be enlighten and ahead of everyone but act more like a sheep. This is what real leadership looks like not to polish TLDs sack too much but that kind of selfless effort deserves a good tug or two.

[Typical Lax Dad]

My wife and I are helping to sponsor an Afghan family being resettled in the state. Nothing wrong with helping those that need help.

+1 that is awesome

How could anyone decide not to help if they can and have the opportunity? We were approached last week. Why not? We have also supported battered women’s shelters. A friend of my wife’s was a local newscaster. Years before I met her, a guy I went to graduate school with had a huge crush on her. She was a honey. Met her a few years later. She had a dirt bag husband that drove around in his red Ferrari. Never liked his vibe. Turned out to he a wife & child beater and when we found out his wife went into a shelter, we decided to support their mission. Also support a homeless shelter for veterans. Good causes and why not support something if you can?

[Farfromgeneva]

My wife and I are helping to sponsor an Afghan family being resettled in the state. Nothing wrong with helping those that need help.

+1 that is awesome

How could anyone decide not to help if they can and have the opportunity? We were approached last week. Why not? We have also supported battered women’s shelters. A friend of my wife’s was a local newscaster. Years before I met her, a guy I went to graduate school with had a huge crush on her. She was a honey. Met her a few years later. She had a dirt bag husband that drove around in his red Ferrari. Never liked his vibe. Turned out to he a wife & child beater and when we found out his wife went into a shelter, we decided to support their mission. Also support a homeless shelter for veterans. Good causes and why not support something if you can?

Because you make real mountain men look bad

[cradleandshoot]

How many Helos did we leave in the desert in 1979?

7 of 8. The one that had problems on the way in, turned around & made it back to the ship.
https://photorecon.net/bluebeard-5/

Regarding spare parts, 2 of the 8 were not flown during workups & were cannibalized as hangar queens to keep the other 6 flying.
The lack of spare parts at that time made cannibalization widespread & degraded readiness & training throughout naval aviation.

This left an entire minesweeping squadron with no aircraft at a time when the Iranians were mining the Persian Gulf.
2 of the abandonded H-53's were not destroyed & were put into service by the Iranians who also operated the H-53.

Understood...my only point is that military spending was nevertheless a ton of $, but how it was prioritized to be spent evidently didn't meet the actual needs of the moment.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/histo ... lspend.htm

Defense spending as a percentage of GDP actually went up during the Carter years versus late Nixon/Ford.

Look at spending compared to the height of the Vietman war. D spending in the Carter years was down compared to before & after, at a time when things were worn out from Vietnam & becoming obsolete, & we were switching to an all volunteer force which cost more.

In 79 or 80, Carter's SecDef was booed when he came to address the squadrons & test center engineers & flight crews at Pax River.
The hangar's were filled with cannibalized hangar queens, In SD in '75-77 we were taking components off of up aircraft, driving them to LAX, shipping them comml air to our Dets in WPac, circumventing an empty supply chain. The military really was hollowed out.

2019 documentary Desert One premiered on History Channel last night. Very well done and should apologize to Cradle as it contained evidence of how Iranians politically used and then desecrated the dead prior to returning the remains for burial here. Despicable. It also gruesomely detailed how those men died in an inferno created by the collision of one helo and the C130 and why survivors could not take those remains as they could not wait for the fire to subside with daylight coming. Truly awful.

Even in defeat, those involved did heroic service despite a complex plan driven largely by political motives for an upcoming election. On one level one could empathise with President Carter over his disappointment and agony as things unraveled, you ultimately could sense his political motives taking over at points. Murphy's Law and other complications doomed the mission almost from the outset. Interesting to note that, unlike the Osama mission, there was no real-time communications between those on the ground and military command.

Well worth your time, to invest two hours but be ready for some visceral material.

Also note the weather phenomenon HABOOB (or dust storm) and how it played adversely into the situation as well especially for the helos.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10793982/reference

relevant articles for analysis/context

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0199desertone/

https://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/buck.pdf

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/l ... eport.html

I'm glad you posted this. I never in my life blamed Jimmy Carter for for making such a tough decision. I'm sure he knew the chances of success where slim to none.

[cradleandshoot]

How many Helos did we leave in the desert in 1979?

7 of 8. The one that had problems on the way in, turned around & made it back to the ship.
https://photorecon.net/bluebeard-5/

Regarding spare parts, 2 of the 8 were not flown during workups & were cannibalized as hangar queens to keep the lmkother 6 flying.
The lack of spare parts at that time made cannibalization widespread & degraded readiness & training throughout naval aviation.

This left an entire minesweeping squadron with no aircraft at a time when the Iranians were mining the Persian Gulf.
2 of the abandonded H-53's were not destroyed & were put into service by the Iranians who also operated the H-53.

Understood...my only point is that military spending was nevertheless a ton of $, but how it was prioritized to be spent evidently didn't meet the actual needs of the moment.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/histo ... lspend.htm

Defense spending as a percentage of GDP actually went up during the Carter years versus late Nixon/Ford.

Look at spending compared to the height of the Vietman war. D spending in the Carter years was down compared to before & after, at a time when things were worn out from Vietnam & becoming obsolete, & we were switching to an all volunteer force which cost more.

In 79 or 80, Carter's SecDef was booed when he came to address the squadrons & test center engineers & flight crews at Pax River.
The hangar's were filled with cannibalized hangar queens, In SD in '75-77 we were taking components off of up aircraft, driving them to LAX, shipping them comml air to our Dets in WPac, circumventing an empty supply chain. The military really was hollowed out.

2019 documentary Desert One premiered on History Channel last night. Very well done and should apologize to Cradle as it contained evidence of how Iranians politically used and then desecrated the dead prior to returning the remains for burial here. Despicable. It also gruesomely detailed how those men died in an inferno created by the collision of one helo and the C130 and why survivors could not take those remains as they could not wait for the fire to subside with daylight coming. Truly awful.

Even in defeat, those involved did heroic service despite a complex plan driven largely by political motives for an upcoming election. On one level one could empathise with President Carter over his disappointment and agony as things unraveled, you ultimately could sense his political motives taking over at points. Murphy's Law and other complications doomed the mission almost from the outset. Interesting to note that, unlike the Osama mission, there was no real-time communications between those on the ground and military command.

Well worth your time, to invest two hours but be ready for some visceral material.

Also note the weather phenomenon HABOOB (or dust storm) and how it played adversely into the situation as well especially for the helos.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10793982/reference

relevant articles for analysis/context

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0199desertone/

https://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/buck.pdf

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/l ... eport.html

Thanks for your understanding why this upset me so much. I was still a young PFC when we saw these pictures. I never forgot them and I never will.

[tech37]

Ha...the woke mob circles the wagons!

[Farfromgeneva]

Lost interest

[Kismet]

How many Helos did we leave in the desert in 1979?

7 of 8. The one that had problems on the way in, turned around & made it back to the ship.
https://photorecon.net/bluebeard-5/

Regarding spare parts, 2 of the 8 were not flown during workups & were cannibalized as hangar queens to keep the lmkother 6 flying.
The lack of spare parts at that time made cannibalization widespread & degraded readiness & training throughout naval aviation.

This left an entire minesweeping squadron with no aircraft at a time when the Iranians were mining the Persian Gulf.
2 of the abandonded H-53's were not destroyed & were put into service by the Iranians who also operated the H-53.

Understood...my only point is that military spending was nevertheless a ton of $, but how it was prioritized to be spent evidently didn't meet the actual needs of the moment.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/histo ... lspend.htm

Defense spending as a percentage of GDP actually went up during the Carter years versus late Nixon/Ford.

Look at spending compared to the height of the Vietman war. D spending in the Carter years was down compared to before & after, at a time when things were worn out from Vietnam & becoming obsolete, & we were switching to an all volunteer force which cost more.

In 79 or 80, Carter's SecDef was booed when he came to address the squadrons & test center engineers & flight crews at Pax River.
The hangar's were filled with cannibalized hangar queens, In SD in '75-77 we were taking components off of up aircraft, driving them to LAX, shipping them comml air to our Dets in WPac, circumventing an empty supply chain. The military really was hollowed out.

2019 documentary Desert One premiered on History Channel last night. Very well done and should apologize to Cradle as it contained evidence of how Iranians politically used and then desecrated the dead prior to returning the remains for burial here. Despicable. It also gruesomely detailed how those men died in an inferno created by the collision of one helo and the C130 and why survivors could not take those remains as they could not wait for the fire to subside with daylight coming. Truly awful.

Even in defeat, those involved did heroic service despite a complex plan driven largely by political motives for an upcoming election. On one level one could empathise with President Carter over his disappointment and agony as things unraveled, you ultimately could sense his political motives taking over at points. Murphy's Law and other complications doomed the mission almost from the outset. Interesting to note that, unlike the Osama mission, there was no real-time communications between those on the ground and military command.

Well worth your time, to invest two hours but be ready for some visceral material.

Also note the weather phenomenon HABOOB (or dust storm) and how it played adversely into the situation as well especially for the helos.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10793982/reference

relevant articles for analysis/context

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0199desertone/

https://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/buck.pdf

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/l ... eport.html

Thanks for your understanding why this upset me so much. I was still a young PFC when we saw these pictures. I never forgot them and I never will.

Completely understandable. Hence the apology issued to you. Hopefully, if you decide to view the documentary, you won't be too adversely affected. It certainly sobered me up a bit. Murphy's Law and then some and no lack of effort or bravery despite the failure and the inability to bring out their deceased comrades with them.

"Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan." - John F. Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs in 1961.
I think he was channeling the Roman historian Tacitus who once said, “This is an unfair thing about war: victory is claimed by all, failure to one alone.”

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

[old salt]

I linked to the numbers, adjusted to 1996 dollars. Including inflation, obviously.

...& according to your link, there were fewer of those constant dollars available 76-79 than in the years before & after. Fact.
During a time of rising military pay & energy prices.

0.5% less than the year prior, about 1-1.5%% less than the 4 years avg. and no, those are inflation adjusted dollars. Lots of money.

I guess in your world, as the military was shrinking fast from its Vietnam era expenditures, they should have actually spent more money...

I just think you might consider that there was plenty of money, and focus more on how it was being prioritized. I think that likely remains the biggest challenge in defense budget management. Not insufficient $.

You do not realize immediate savings when downsizing. BRAC proves that. Already in the acquisition pipeline -- worn out WW II vintage ships were being replaced by new, more capable ships, same with 50's vintage aircraft that proved so vulnerable to SAMs. The Cold War didn't stop when we left Viernam. Priorities ? If you want to stop the draft, you have to pay volunteers more. If you want to keep operating, you have to pay for fuel, even when prices are spiking.

Despite your excuse making for Carter, he campaigned promising defense cuts & followed through, as reflected by defense spending during his term of office, which your chart shows -- his term was the low point in Cold War defense spending. That was reflected in reduced military readiness which spawned the term hollowed out military. Based on my personal experience -- it was real.
Blame Nixon, Ford, the Generals & the MIC if it helps you rationalize, but Carter was not powerless.

[MDlaxfan76]

I linked to the numbers, adjusted to 1996 dollars. Including inflation, obviously.

...& according to your link, there were fewer of those constant dollars available 76-79 than in the years before & after. Fact.
During a time of rising military pay & energy prices.

0.5% less than the year prior, about 1-1.5%% less than the 4 years avg. and no, those are inflation adjusted dollars. Lots of money.

I guess in your world, as the military was shrinking fast from its Vietnam era expenditures, they should have actually spent more money...

I just think you might consider that there was plenty of money, and focus more on how it was being prioritized. I think that likely remains the biggest challenge in defense budget management. Not insufficient $.

You do not realize immediate savings when downsizing. BRAC proves that. Already in the acquisition pipeline -- worn out WW II vintage ships were being replaced by new, more capable ships, same with 50's vintage aircraft that proved so vulnerable to SAMs. The Cold War didn't stop when we left Viernam. Priorities ? If you want to stop the draft, you have to pay volunteers more. If you want to keep operating, you have to pay for fuel, even when prices are spiking.

Despite your excuse making for Carter, he campaigned promising defense cuts & followed through, as reflected by defense spending during his term of office, which your chart shows -- his term was the low point in Cold War defense spending. That was reflected in reduced military readiness which spawned the term hollowed out military. Based on my personal experience -- it was real.
Blame Nixon, Ford, the Generals & the MIC if it helps you rationalize, but Carter was not powerless.

ohhh, I quite agree that Carter could have campaigned and executed on an entirely different direction, actually increasing spending rather than continuing the cuts under Nixon and Ford. But that's not remotely what the country wanted or expected...as it was, the cuts were minor in comparison to the overall budget.

And I totally believe you that the impact showed up in the areas that you describe as opposed to say, some more nuclear subs and warheads. Huge budget.

I just think that it's all too easy to take a partisan, anti-Democrat view of this when the reality is that the cuts were underway under a GOP Admin and it was very much what the country was voting for to continue.

And I think it's particularly crude thinking to blame the sitting President during any attempt to save American lives for the reality of the military to either be unlucky or ill equipped for the mission. On the latter, it's definitely correct that they could have been equipped properly had that need been prioritized over others...but they didn't expect or plan for that specific sort of mission, didn't prioritize for it, and undoubtedly were "unlucky" too.