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MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:34 am But let's not kid ourselves by calling that a pathway to "peace"... Until the strategy presents at least a pathway to, and a hope for, true peace, with not only mutual respect and security, but an actual stake in each other's happiness and prosperity...

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:11 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:18 pm Just read article kismet posted. Still it's mind boggling.
Someone had to know this was coming. If Egypt claims they warned Israel, how did Egypt know?

Why so mind boggling? Too many stories of the US receiving intelligence that was ignored or minimized. Israel and America get a *lot* of intelligence related to threats.

tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:24 am Sure they do, but seems as though Egypt may have received different more specific intel than Israel/US? "Mind boggling" to me how this could have happened?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:34 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:09 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:55 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:45 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

That NYT analysis makes many of the same points as the Dennis Ross interview you posted.
Both make the point that Bibi tried to work with Hamas, & neither makes the same hate filled, over-the-top, politically biased accusations against him that you & Friedman make.

Did I quote or parrot Friedman???

Did I post a Dennis Ross interview???

Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.

I read the article you pointed to and it definitely doesn't suggest that Netanyahu "wanted peace"; it only suggests that Israeli intelligence was fooled by Hamas' head fakes that they weren't preparing for immediate aggression, certainly nothing along the lines of this scale.

sure, it was what they "wanted to hear", given their focus on Israel's own aggressive actions in the West Bank...they 'wanted to hear' that Hamas was weak and passive, that subjugation was working in that quarter...clearly it wasn't.

That's why I said the article didn't address the errors in strategy, only focused on the operational and intelligence failures.

The strategy has been completely broken; it was just a matter of time.

An entirely new strategy is being put into play. I bet you won't like it one damn bit.

"like it"??? I don't think many Americans, or Israelis even, will "like it".
It's going to be truly awful bloodshed on a mass scale, I predict.

A whole lot of Israelis are going to be killed as well as huge numbers of Palestinian citizens.

I can't "like it".

But let's not kid ourselves by calling that a pathway to "peace".
It's only going to deepen the generational hate and violence.
Of course, that's what Hamas and related extremists wants...

More than 50% of Gaza residents are under the age of 18...they're going through immense trauma and will lose many family members and friends to Israeli rockets and bullets, many courtesy of the USA.

Until the strategy presents at least a pathway to, and a hope for, true peace, with not only mutual respect and security, but an actual stake in each other's happiness and prosperity, supported by neighbors and the international community, the only pathway for this generation will be more "resistance"...meaning asymmetric war...terror...

Now, if you're saying the new strategy will be complete genocide of all Palestinians....?

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:26 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:24 am Sure they do, but seems as though Egypt may have received different more specific intel than Israel/US? "Mind boggling" to me how this could have happened?

My guess is that when Hamas was sorting out strategies to do what they did, they had some obviously clandestine conversations with Egypt.

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:05 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:25 pm ... Indeed, according to this link, a minority of fundamentalist Jews, though Satmar are the largest such sect of anti-zionist Orthodox Jews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism... Most Orthodox Jews at least accept zionism and Israel according to these citations. They read the same Torah... Satmar, at least by ideology, do not accept zionism, vehemently at times. That doesn't mean that all Satmar are necessarily uniform in their adherence to this or any other part of the ideology, but probably fair to paint with that brush generally speaking.

When you say "Satmar, at least by ideology, do not accept zionism, vehemently at times" what do you mean? My experience is very different. During the foundation of the state of Israel, Satmar thought Jews replacing the British mandate was a mistake but numerous decades later, Satmar chasidim recognize that the toothpaste is out of the tube and have a very different perspective. They personally may not want to live in Israel but they 100% support Israel's right to exist. They most certainly do not support Hamas and the anti-zionistic causes. (The Neturei Karta is a different story.) That said, even if you want to call Satmar Chasidim "anti-zionists" which, again, is simply inaccurate, there are 100,000 Satmar chasidim. (The Neturei Karta are a fraction of this, a much smaller group.) There are 2 million orthodox Jews. That means Satmar Chasidim are 0.05% of the orthodox jewish population. That's not a minority. That's an insignificant minority. And, again, Satmar Chasidim aren't even anti-zionists in the way that most americans discuss anti-zionists. i.e. They do not want the Jews out of Israel. That would be the Neturei Karta who would be around 0.01% of the orthodox population. Again, very small, not significant. 99.99% of orthodox Jews accept/support zionism and Israel... which I guess is "most" as you're saying but... You see what I'm saying. One would not be wrong to say "all".

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:25 pmthere are many valid ways to 'read' and argue about the meaning of these sacred texts, rabbinic midrash. Eye-opening to this Christian used to having the priest or minister tell us what the Bible says and not really questioning it...but it's all open to question, indeed that may be the point!

What you're pointing at is a unique aspect of Judaism. People tend to look at observant (orthodox) Jews, Jews who live Torah-based lives as uniform, monolithic and there is some truth to this. Orthodox Jews can dress similarly, vacation similarly, go to similar schools, etc. and... So do all people. This is the nature of anthropology, sociology. i.e. Satmar chasidim point at Roland Park and their kids going to MIAA schools and wearing Vineyard Vines and etc. in a similar way to the Roland Park people point at the Satmar Chasidim. That aside, a unique aspect of Judaism is, one, we don't have a, so to speak, pope. Jews live according to Jewish law and while there are universal laws, the laws are different for each, so to speak, jurisdiction. Very democratic, very subjective, very community-centered, very individual-centered. Jews question everything and encouraged to do so because the answer needs to be the answer for that individual. A unique thing, a good thing.

tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:36 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:26 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:24 am Sure they do, but seems as though Egypt may have received different more specific intel than Israel/US? "Mind boggling" to me how this could have happened?

My guess is that when Hamas was sorting out strategies to do what they did, they had some obviously clandestine conversations with Egypt.

Perhaps. I'm sure you read it but here's Friedman's take again:

"I promise you that if and when there’s an inquiry into how the Israeli Army could have so missed this Hamas buildup, investigators will discover that the Israeli Army leadership had to spend so much time just keeping its air force pilots and reserve officers from boycotting their service to protest Netanyahu’s judicial coup — not to mention the time, attention and resources they had to devote to preventing extremist settlers and religious zealots from doing crazy things in Jerusalem and the West Bank — that they took their eyes off the ball."

tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:36 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:26 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:24 am Sure they do, but seems as though Egypt may have received different more specific intel than Israel/US? "Mind boggling" to me how this could have happened?

My guess is that when Hamas was sorting out strategies to do what they did, they had some obviously clandestine conversations with Egypt.

Perhaps. I'm sure you read it but here's Friedman's take again:

"I promise you that if and when there’s an inquiry into how the Israeli Army could have so missed this Hamas buildup, investigators will discover that the Israeli Army leadership had to spend so much time just keeping its air force pilots and reserve officers from boycotting their service to protest Netanyahu’s judicial coup — not to mention the time, attention and resources they had to devote to preventing extremist settlers and religious zealots from doing crazy things in Jerusalem and the West Bank — that they took their eyes off the ball."

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:33 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:34 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:09 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:55 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:45 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

That NYT analysis makes many of the same points as the Dennis Ross interview you posted.
Both make the point that Bibi tried to work with Hamas, & neither makes the same hate filled, over-the-top, politically biased accusations against him that you & Friedman make.

Did I quote or parrot Friedman???

Did I post a Dennis Ross interview???

Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.

I read the article you pointed to and it definitely doesn't suggest that Netanyahu "wanted peace"; it only suggests that Israeli intelligence was fooled by Hamas' head fakes that they weren't preparing for immediate aggression, certainly nothing along the lines of this scale.

sure, it was what they "wanted to hear", given their focus on Israel's own aggressive actions in the West Bank...they 'wanted to hear' that Hamas was weak and passive, that subjugation was working in that quarter...clearly it wasn't.

That's why I said the article didn't address the errors in strategy, only focused on the operational and intelligence failures.

The strategy has been completely broken; it was just a matter of time.

An entirely new strategy is being put into play. I bet you won't like it one damn bit.

"like it"??? I don't think many Americans, or Israelis even, will "like it".
It's going to be truly awful bloodshed on a mass scale, I predict.

A whole lot of Israelis are going to be killed as well as huge numbers of Palestinian citizens.

I can't "like it".

But let's not kid ourselves by calling that a pathway to "peace".
It's only going to deepen the generational hate and violence.
Of course, that's what Hamas and related extremists wants...

More than 50% of Gaza residents are under the age of 18...they're going through immense trauma and will lose many family members and friends to Israeli rockets and bullets, many courtesy of the USA.

Until the strategy presents at least a pathway to, and a hope for, true peace, with not only mutual respect and security, but an actual stake in each other's happiness and prosperity, supported by neighbors and the international community, the only pathway for this generation will be more "resistance"...meaning asymmetric war...terror...

Now, if you're saying the new strategy will be complete genocide of all Palestinians....?

Read back to what I said in a post a few days ago. I said a world of chit is going to come down on Hamas. When the optics Hamas has to deal with involve massacring innocent civilians and desecrating the dead your the only person on this forum who is pro Hamas. No surprise to me, with friends like you Israel doesn't need a worse enemy.

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:49 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:36 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:26 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:24 am Sure they do, but seems as though Egypt may have received different more specific intel than Israel/US? "Mind boggling" to me how this could have happened?

My guess is that when Hamas was sorting out strategies to do what they did, they had some obviously clandestine conversations with Egypt.

Perhaps. I'm sure you read it but here's Friedman's take again:

"I promise you that if and when there’s an inquiry into how the Israeli Army could have so missed this Hamas buildup, investigators will discover that the Israeli Army leadership had to spend so much time just keeping its air force pilots and reserve officers from boycotting their service to protest Netanyahu’s judicial coup — not to mention the time, attention and resources they had to devote to preventing extremist settlers and religious zealots from doing crazy things in Jerusalem and the West Bank — that they took their eyes off the ball."

Read it when you posted it and it stuck in my head. Very likely. This stuff is a team sport and if there's internal fighting, it will affect your game.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:37 am yes, a small minority...I thought I was more clear on that point; Satmar constitute about 5% of Orthodox and obviously tiny percentage of all Jews.

Most Orthodox are pro-zionist, just a small fraction are not...my point was in contrast to Brooklyn's argument that Torah demands Jews to not be zionist. Tiny portion of observant Jews (Orthodox or otherwise) believe that to be the case.

And I thought I acknowledged that of course there is diversity of view even within a sect that chooses to associate with a common set of views and observances. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's some diversity on the question of zionism...but at least traditionally and ideologically, Satmar have been anti-zionist...not remotely akin to Hamas sort of anti-zionist, but undoubtedly closer to as you describe. Maybe the better description would be "not pro-zionist"...?

But hey, they have all sorts of views about the world that I'd find strange or outright disagree with...as do most Jews...

tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:36 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:26 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:24 am Sure they do, but seems as though Egypt may have received different more specific intel than Israel/US? "Mind boggling" to me how this could have happened?

My guess is that when Hamas was sorting out strategies to do what they did, they had some obviously clandestine conversations with Egypt.

Perhaps. I'm sure you read it but here's Friedman's take again:

"I promise you that if and when there’s an inquiry into how the Israeli Army could have so missed this Hamas buildup, investigators will discover that the Israeli Army leadership had to spend so much time just keeping its air force pilots and reserve officers from boycotting their service to protest Netanyahu’s judicial coup — not to mention the time, attention and resources they had to devote to preventing extremist settlers and religious zealots from doing crazy things in Jerusalem and the West Bank — that they took their eyes off the ball."

Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:59 am May explain why populism as some kind of political advantage strategy isn't the best idea. Might be instructional for us Americans but likely lost on many. Look at the current dysfunction in the House and why they cannot elect a new speaker.

As for the Egyptian intell miss, likely explainable by the same problem. Political dysfunction and argument precludes paying attention to intelligence.

Torah demands Jews to not be zionist

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:05 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:59 am May explain why populism as some kind of political advantage strategy isn't the best idea. Might be instructional for us Americans but likely lost on many. Look at the current dysfunction in the House and why they cannot elect a new speaker.

As for the Egyptian intell miss, likely explainable by the same problem. Political dysfunction and argument precludes paying attention to intelligence.

And then there's a 9/11 and the politicians and people become one nation. But until a 9/11, business as usual...

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:58 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:37 am yes, a small minority...I thought I was more clear on that point; Satmar constitute about 5% of Orthodox and obviously tiny percentage of all Jews.

Most Orthodox are pro-zionist, just a small fraction are not...my point was in contrast to Brooklyn's argument that Torah demands Jews to not be zionist. Tiny portion of observant Jews (Orthodox or otherwise) believe that to be the case.

And I thought I acknowledged that of course there is diversity of view even within a sect that chooses to associate with a common set of views and observances. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's some diversity on the question of zionism...but at least traditionally and ideologically, Satmar have been anti-zionist...not remotely akin to Hamas sort of anti-zionist, but undoubtedly closer to as you describe. Maybe the better description would be "not pro-zionist"...?

But hey, they have all sorts of views about the world that I'd find strange or outright disagree with...as do most Jews...

I recognize I'm being a stickler but I can't help it. Satmar chasidim are 0.05% of all orthodox Jews, not 5%. That's not small. That's insignificant. And... Satmar is not anti-zionist. With that said, yes, orthodox jews are not antizionist. And, yes, not pro-zionist is a much better description. and, for sure, satmar chasidim are pro-jews and jewish lives. but that should go without saying.

strange, outright disagree... Yes. And that's not just reserved for chasidim. plenty of strangeness to go around. but back to the Jews. i'm not sure if you're aware of this but i 've read that satmar, bobov, and other chasidic groups don't follow men's d1 lacrosse *at all*. Like, they've never even heard of mikey powell. it's strange...

Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:08 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:05 am And then there's a 9/11 and the politicians and people become one nation. But until a 9/11, business as usual...

Not sure your last sentence applies now.
GOP chair called it "an opportunity" and Tim Scott took a shot at the President and blamed him for everything never mentioning the terrorists BTW.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:52 pm Let's see ~ Iran is getting blamed. Putin is getting blamed. Biden is getting blamed. On another channel, Soros is getting blamed.

So many experts out there.

Who's next?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:34 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:09 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:55 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:45 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

That NYT analysis makes many of the same points as the Dennis Ross interview you posted.
Both make the point that Bibi tried to work with Hamas, & neither makes the same hate filled, over-the-top, politically biased accusations against him that you & Friedman make.

Did I quote or parrot Friedman???

Did I post a Dennis Ross interview???

Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.

I read the article you pointed to and it definitely doesn't suggest that Netanyahu "wanted peace"; it only suggests that Israeli intelligence was fooled by Hamas' head fakes that they weren't preparing for immediate aggression, certainly nothing along the lines of this scale.

sure, it was what they "wanted to hear", given their focus on Israel's own aggressive actions in the West Bank...they 'wanted to hear' that Hamas was weak and passive, that subjugation was working in that quarter...clearly it wasn't.

That's why I said the article didn't address the errors in strategy, only focused on the operational and intelligence failures.

The strategy has been completely broken; it was just a matter of time.

An entirely new strategy is being put into play. I bet you won't like it one damn bit.

"like it"??? I don't think many Americans, or Israelis even, will "like it".
It's going to be truly awful bloodshed on a mass scale, I predict.

A whole lot of Israelis are going to be killed as well as huge numbers of Palestinian citizens.

I can't "like it".

But let's not kid ourselves by calling that a pathway to "peace".
It's only going to deepen the generational hate and violence.
Of course, that's what Hamas and related extremists wants...

More than 50% of Gaza residents are under the age of 18...they're going through immense trauma and will lose many family members and friends to Israeli rockets and bullets, many courtesy of the USA.

Until the strategy presents at least a pathway to, and a hope for, true peace, with not only mutual respect and security, but an actual stake in each other's happiness and prosperity, supported by neighbors and the international community, the only pathway for this generation will be more "resistance"...meaning asymmetric war...terror...

Now, if you're saying the new strategy will be complete genocide of all Palestinians....?