JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[old salt]

People inherently don't like opposition research even though it can be quite effective. So the issue is the rules about what is acceptable, and what is legal. Opposition research done by (and paid for) a campaign is legal in almost all cases. It is against the law to accept opposition research from foreigners strictly because it is considered something of _value_ and foreigners cannot contribute money to a US campaign.

But it’s okay to believe and trust people in the shady/shadows like Steele. Make up our mind.

Completely legal for the Trump Campaign to use campaign funds to hire the Ukrainian version of Christopher Steele to dig up dirt on Biden. 100% aok. You could even pay Rudy to do the PI work for you.

Completely illegal, however, to be doing that when acting as president and using taxpayer funds. That's corruption, extortion, misapropriating public funds, campaign law violations, etc.

So what Trump did was completely dumb and unnecessary in addition to being completely illegal.

But is it illegal to ask the new President of Ukraine. who says he wants to wash away corruption, to investigate & tell us what really went down in his country, re. the US. If it exonerates the Bidens & the Chalupa lady, & confirms the the dirt on Manafort (both likely, imho) at least we voters will know what really happened.

[holmes435]

People inherently don't like opposition research even though it can be quite effective. So the issue is the rules about what is acceptable, and what is legal. Opposition research done by (and paid for) a campaign is legal in almost all cases. It is against the law to accept opposition research from foreigners strictly because it is considered something of _value_ and foreigners cannot contribute money to a US campaign.

But it’s okay to believe and trust people in the shady/shadows like Steele. Make up our mind.

Completely legal for the Trump Campaign to use campaign funds to hire the Ukrainian version of Christopher Steele to dig up dirt on Biden. 100% aok. You could even pay Rudy to do the PI work for you.

Completely illegal, however, to be doing that when acting as president and using taxpayer funds. That's corruption, extortion, misapropriating public funds, campaign law violations, etc.

So what Trump did was completely dumb and unnecessary in addition to being completely illegal.

But is it illegal to ask the new President of Ukraine. who says he wants to wash away corruption, to investigate & tell us what really went down in his country, re. the US. If it exonerates the Bidens & the Chalupa lady, & confirms the the dirt on Manafort (both likely, imho) at least we voters will know what really happened.

Yes, it's illegal to do what Trump did.

[old salt]

People inherently don't like opposition research even though it can be quite effective. So the issue is the rules about what is acceptable, and what is legal. Opposition research done by (and paid for) a campaign is legal in almost all cases. It is against the law to accept opposition research from foreigners strictly because it is considered something of _value_ and foreigners cannot contribute money to a US campaign.

But it’s okay to believe and trust people in the shady/shadows like Steele. Make up our mind.

Completely legal for the Trump Campaign to use campaign funds to hire the Ukrainian version of Christopher Steele to dig up dirt on Biden. 100% aok. You could even pay Rudy to do the PI work for you.

Completely illegal, however, to be doing that when acting as president and using taxpayer funds. That's corruption, extortion, misapropriating public funds, campaign law violations, etc.

So what Trump did was completely dumb and unnecessary in addition to being completely illegal.

But is it illegal to ask the new President of Ukraine. who says he wants to wash away corruption, to investigate & tell us what really went down in his country, re. the US. If it exonerates the Bidens & the Chalupa lady, & confirms the the dirt on Manafort (both likely, imho) at least we voters will know what really happened.

Yes, it's illegal to do what Trump did.

We'll find out.

[holmes435]

People inherently don't like opposition research even though it can be quite effective. So the issue is the rules about what is acceptable, and what is legal. Opposition research done by (and paid for) a campaign is legal in almost all cases. It is against the law to accept opposition research from foreigners strictly because it is considered something of _value_ and foreigners cannot contribute money to a US campaign.

But it’s okay to believe and trust people in the shady/shadows like Steele. Make up our mind.

Completely legal for the Trump Campaign to use campaign funds to hire the Ukrainian version of Christopher Steele to dig up dirt on Biden. 100% aok. You could even pay Rudy to do the PI work for you.

Completely illegal, however, to be doing that when acting as president and using taxpayer funds. That's corruption, extortion, misapropriating public funds, campaign law violations, etc.

So what Trump did was completely dumb and unnecessary in addition to being completely illegal.

But is it illegal to ask the new President of Ukraine. who says he wants to wash away corruption, to investigate & tell us what really went down in his country, re. the US. If it exonerates the Bidens & the Chalupa lady, & confirms the the dirt on Manafort (both likely, imho) at least we voters will know what really happened.

Yes, it's illegal to do what Trump did.

We'll find out.

Trump has done a number of illegal things. We aren't allowed to indict him according to Barr. We literally cannot act even if we know 100% he broke the law, which we do. Congress has to act and the majority of one house is Republican. The party of supposed rule of law.

The rule of law does not apply in the normal sense. Your argument is invalid.

[a fan]

But is it illegal to ask the new President of Ukraine. who says he wants to wash away corruption, to investigate & tell us what really went down in his country, re. the US.

If he didn't name Biden by name? Of course that's legal. Heck, he could even threaten to withhold money and arms from them if they don't clean up their acts. But he foolishly named Biden in his request.

The funniest/saddest part of this whole episode is that Trump was dumb enough to admit doing that on TV.

And then worse, that his idiotic lawyer admitted it. How dumb can you get?

[old salt]

But is it illegal to ask the new President of Ukraine. who says he wants to wash away corruption, to investigate & tell us what really went down in his country, re. the US.

If he didn't name Biden by name? Of course that's legal. Heck, he could even threaten to withhold money and arms from them if they don't clean up their acts. But he foolishly named Biden in his request.

The funniest/saddest part of this whole episode is that Trump was dumb enough to admit doing that on TV.

And then worse, that his idiotic lawyer admitted it. How dumb can you get?

Their position is that Biden should not be exempt from scrutiny now, just because he is a candidate.
He was acting as the VP, not as a private citizen.

[a fan]

Their position is that Biden should not be exempt from scrutiny now, just because he is a candidate.
He was acting as the VP, not as a private citizen.

No one is suggesting he's exempt from scrutiny.

Why not investigate Biden before he declared his candidacy? Trump had 2+ years to investigate until he was blue in the face. Why wait?

[ggait]

Salty.

Just because trump can strain to claim a lame pretext after the fact does not make it legal.

Common sense tells us that trump’s reasons were dirty. He’s asking about crowdstrike and Biden, both of which are old situations. Neither have anything to do with current foreign policy issues. And he’s directing the Ukes to deal with Giuliani.

Come on. You think it is a legit foreign policy conversation? Seriously?

[old salt]

Salty.

Just because trump can strain to claim a lame pretext after the fact does not make it legal.

Common sense tells us that trump’s reasons were dirty. He’s asking about crowdstrike and Biden, both of which are old situations. Neither have anything to do with current foreign policy issues. And he’s directing the Ukes to deal with Giuliani.

Come on. You think it is a legit foreign policy conversation? Seriously?

Zelesky wasn't President before. Was Trump supposed to ask Poroshenko, whose govt helped the Clinton campaign try to defeat him.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/ ... ire-233446

Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found.

[Trinity]

You mean Ukraine warned us about Manafort? How dare they. He was advising clients aligned against US interests. Why is Barr helping Trump keep his taxes hidden? Since when is that an AG concern?

[HooDat]

Had Obama asked Putin the direct question we'd probably be in a better spot.

No. He would have been ratted out, and impeached. And justifiably so. I am over the moon confused that you would think that's an ok thing for our President to do. That's Chicago politics that made Mayor Daley so famous. It's disgusting, and has no place in our country.[....]
This is sounding like a very partisan complaint to me.

except Obama was not held accountable for his IRS going after political opponents, nor was he held accountable for his AG cutting deals on tarmacs regarding his political successor in the middle of her campaign.....

I know whataboutism is tiresome, but part of the reason we got Trump is that your average Joe sees two sets of rules, and more and more of the non 0.1% have come to believe that game is stacked against them on both sides. So they run into the arms of a pig.

The hypocrisy of our system would be infuriating, if it wasn't so terrifying.

The more I pay attention, the more I believe TAATS, and the more I think this has the potential to not end well. ..and yes I mean even worse that what are experiencing now. The anger being fomented on both sides is going to burn out of control.

[foreverlax]

Had Obama asked Putin the direct question we'd probably be in a better spot.

No. He would have been ratted out, and impeached. And justifiably so. I am over the moon confused that you would think that's an ok thing for our President to do. That's Chicago politics that made Mayor Daley so famous. It's disgusting, and has no place in our country.[....]
This is sounding like a very partisan complaint to me.

except Obama was not held accountable for his IRS going after political opponents, nor was he held accountable for his AG cutting deals on tarmacs regarding his political successor in the middle of her campaign..... Not sure what you mean by accountable - this was investigated for years by both chambers and the DOJ. The meeting on the tarmac was a terrible look, but we have no idea what was said.

I know whataboutism is tiresome, but part of the reason we got Trump is that your average Joe sees two sets of rules, and more and more of the non 0.1% have come to believe that game is stacked against them on both sides. So they run into the arms of a pig. Completely agree

The hypocrisy of our system would be infuriating, if it wasn't so terrifying. BOOM!!

The more I pay attention, the more I believe TAATS, and the more I think this has the potential to not end well. ..and yes I mean even worse that what are experiencing now. The anger being fomented on both sides is going to burn out of control. My hope is we find our way back to a common sense government that works for the people...from the middle.

[HooDat]

Not sure what you mean by accountable - this was investigated for years by both chambers and the DOJ. The meeting on the tarmac was a terrible look, but we have no idea what was said.

...sure we do - they talked about grandchildren...

[old salt]

I know whataboutism is tiresome, but part of the reason we got Trump is that your average Joe sees two sets of rules, and more and more of the non 0.1% have come to believe that game is stacked against them on both sides. So they run into the arms of a pig.

The hypocrisy of our system would be infuriating, if it wasn't so terrifying.

The more I pay attention, the more I believe TAATS, and the more I think this has the potential to not end well. ..and yes I mean even worse that what are experiencing now. The anger being fomented on both sides is going to burn out of control.

Not to worry. Once all our guns are confiscated & John Brennan's back in control, peace will return.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Had Obama asked Putin the direct question we'd probably be in a better spot.

No. He would have been ratted out, and impeached. And justifiably so. I am over the moon confused that you would think that's an ok thing for our President to do. That's Chicago politics that made Mayor Daley so famous. It's disgusting, and has no place in our country.[....]
This is sounding like a very partisan complaint to me.

except Obama was not held accountable for his IRS going after political opponents, nor was he held accountable for his AG cutting deals on tarmacs regarding his political successor in the middle of her campaign.....

I know whataboutism is tiresome, but part of the reason we got Trump is that your average Joe sees two sets of rules, and more and more of the non 0.1% have come to believe that game is stacked against them on both sides. So they run into the arms of a pig.

The hypocrisy of our system would be infuriating, if it wasn't so terrifying.

The more I pay attention, the more I believe TAATS, and the more I think this has the potential to not end well. ..and yes I mean even worse that what are experiencing now. The anger being fomented on both sides is going to burn out of control.

Lynch had the DOJ end the investigation?

[a fan]

Had Obama asked Putin the direct question we'd probably be in a better spot.

No. He would have been ratted out, and impeached. And justifiably so. I am over the moon confused that you would think that's an ok thing for our President to do. That's Chicago politics that made Mayor Daley so famous. It's disgusting, and has no place in our country.[....]
This is sounding like a very partisan complaint to me.

except Obama was not held accountable for his IRS going after political opponents, nor was he held accountable for his AG cutting deals on tarmacs regarding his political successor in the middle of her campaign.....

Neither the head of the IRS nor the AG is the same thing as Obama.

If you recall, these were two things that made me livid....the IRS stuff and the Tarmac.

But to my point, how does letting them all get away with it fix the problem?

Dems should have been calling for Bill Clinton to get arrested for Obstruction on that Tarmac. They didn't. Strangely, neither did the Republicans.

[youthathletics]

Had Obama asked Putin the direct question we'd probably be in a better spot.

No. He would have been ratted out, and impeached. And justifiably so. I am over the moon confused that you would think that's an ok thing for our President to do. That's Chicago politics that made Mayor Daley so famous. It's disgusting, and has no place in our country.[....]
This is sounding like a very partisan complaint to me.

except Obama was not held accountable for his IRS going after political opponents, nor was he held accountable for his AG cutting deals on tarmacs regarding his political successor in the middle of her campaign.....

Neither the head of the IRS nor the AG is the same thing as Obama.

If you recall, these were two things that made me livid....the IRS stuff and the Tarmac.

But to my point, how does letting them all get away with it fix the problem?

Dems should have been calling for Bill Clinton to get arrested for Obstruction on that Tarmac. They didn't. Strangely, neither did the Republicans.

The point, as you very well know, is the hypocrisy and selective strike on particular targets.

We are all saying darned near the same thing....there is near zero accountability on either side and the end game is a scoreboard of who holds the most dirt on each other.

[a fan]

The point, as you very well know, is the hypocrisy and selective strike on particular targets.

We are all saying darned near the same thing....there is near zero accountability on either side and the end game is a scoreboard of who holds the most dirt on each other.

Yes! I've said for years----some might say droned on and on-----is that the problem in American politics is that the Republican voters don't hold their representative accountable, and vice versa for the Dems.

So the Dems voters should have been SCREAMING about the IRS and Tarmac meetings, demanding prosecution. They didn't. Waved it through, letting guys like Trump know that this is ok with voters.

And the R's should be SCREAMING that Trump has blown $3 Trillion and counting on social programs, didn't fix Obamacare, and did nothing about immigration reform. And, of course, about their President asking a foreign leader to go after a political rival. They're not. So the corruption gets worse and worse and worse.

And as I have said dozens of times, until these voters demand that their parties execute the way that they want, we're stuck as a nation. This will not get fixed until the Dem and R voters hold their own party accountable.

And the 1% will eventually own it all, while these voters point fingers at one another.

[ABV 8.3%]

Had Obama asked Putin the direct question we'd probably be in a better spot.

No. He would have been ratted out, and impeached. And justifiably so. I am over the moon confused that you would think that's an ok thing for our President to do. That's Chicago politics that made Mayor Daley so famous. It's disgusting, and has no place in our country.[....]
This is sounding like a very partisan complaint to me.

except Obama was not held accountable for his IRS going after political opponents, nor was he held accountable for his AG cutting deals on tarmacs regarding his political successor in the middle of her campaign.....

Neither the head of the IRS nor the AG is the same thing as Obama.

If you recall, these were two things that made me livid....the IRS stuff and the Tarmac.

But to my point, how does letting them all get away with it fix the problem?

Dems should have been calling for Bill Clinton to get arrested for Obstruction on that Tarmac. They didn't. Strangely, neither did the Republicans.

Does IRS, Tarmac, Clinton, ....all the other topic......seem like focus to you? Tough to keep straight everyone rules that apply to others, but not themselves.

[a fan]

HooDat brought up both the tarmac and the IRS, not me. I was addressing his points, and more importantly explaining why whataboutism does nothing to stop corruption in DC. In fact, it cheers this corruption. And I made my point respectfully and politely.

Besides, my agreement is with you!

I will hold to my word to you and Old Salt so long as it is reciprocated.