runrussellrun wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:23 pm
(omitted discussion of why there is an undercount)
ggait, you keep on ignoring the financial aspects of listing COVID on the death cert.
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
Indeed, big disincentives.
Of course, there will be some fraud.
Important to have whistle blower protections...and for those who don't understand private whistle blower law, the whistle blower (and their lawyers) get a big chunk of any fines when defrauding the government is found to have occurred.
But as a proportion of the whole, fraud will be very low just as it is in Medicare reimbursements etc. Indeed, I'd bet lower because the fraudsters didn't have a running start on planning to perpetrate schemes, as this thing blew up so fast and furious.
The unreported cases are likely to be far higher, especially in those peak months when testing was so scarce. You'd think that would get better over time.
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:36 pm
by ggait
RRR -- you keep ignoring the basics of the analysis in your quest to concoct a conspiracy theory.
What the pros do is look at AGGREGATE data. If more people are die-ing during a time period beyond what would be expected, there has to be some reason for the variance. Using this approach, it does not matter what one particular doc does or does not write down. Read below.
The aggregate data suggests pandemic deaths are 20-25% higher than the official tally. So your point is wrong. And also irrelevant.
So even if the official tally may be subject to some vagaries and particular incentives, recognize that the pros use an analysis that doesn't rely on that count. Also, you provide no support for your conspiracy theory -- just speculation.
Moving on.
Between March 1 and May 9, the nation recorded an estimated 101,600 excess deaths, or deaths beyond the number that would normally be expected for that time of year, according to an analysis conducted for The Washington Post by a research team led by the Yale School of Public Health. That figure reflects about 26,000 more fatalities than were attributed to covid-19 on death certificates during that period, according to federal data.
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
Not to mention that falsifying a Death Certificate and sending it to the State is a felony in many States, CA included. Someone has to put their *ss on the line to sign those things.
And if you do it for financial gain? Now you have a case for fraud.
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:54 pm
by MDlaxfan76
ggait wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:06 pm
I missed this a couple of days ago, but the UMinn clinical trial says HCQ is an airball as a preventive.
Many other trials still going on. Some looking at HCQ as a treatment (especially early on) and also as part of a cocktail. So those angles are still TBD.
Came out the same day as the report questioning the WHO judgment etc, but buried by other more pressing news.
I had to chuckle when I read a scathing main editorial in WSJ on the report re WHO as being not as careful, double blind etc as desirable, plus arguments about why HCQ might have more beneficial effect in prophylactic usage if exposed... and yet it was if they didn't even know about the very rigorous study that had just been done that revealed zero positive prophylactic effect.
Which they did report on briefly, deep in their pages that same day. So, they knew...
Now, that well constructed study also didn't find any heightened risk from taking the HCQ, so from that perspective is seems to run contrary to some of the other studies WHO was relying upon to pull the drug from recommendation, but those other studies were on seriously sick patients given HCQ, so there may well have been deleterious effect in those cases. So stopping was indeed appropriate.
Bottomline, HCQ appears to have zero positive effect on COVID-19... and does have known risks that could understandably be bad for those with the disease as well as other underlying conditions.
SO...Move on, folks, to therapies with a shot at being helpful.
ggait wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:06 pm
I missed this a couple of days ago, but the UMinn clinical trial says HCQ is an airball as a preventive.
Many other trials still going on. Some looking at HCQ as a treatment (especially early on) and also as part of a cocktail. So those angles are still TBD.
Came out the same day as the report questioning the WHO judgment etc, but buried by other more pressing news.
I had to chuckle when I read a scathing main editorial in WSJ on the report re WHO as being not as careful, double blind etc as desirable, plus arguments about why HCQ might have more beneficial effect in prophylactic usage if exposed... and yet it was if they didn't even know about the very rigorous study that had just been done that revealed zero positive prophylactic effect.
Now, that well constructed study also didn't find any heightened risk from taking the HCQ, so from that perspective is seems to run contrary to some of the other studies WHO was relying upon to pull the drug from recommendation, but those other studies were on seriously sick patients given HCQ, so there may well have been deleterious effect in those cases. So stopping was indeed appropriate.
Bottomline, HCQ appears to have zero positive effect on COVID-19... and does have known risks that could understandably be bad for those with the disease as well as other underlying conditions.
SO...Move on, folks, to therapies with a shot at being helpful.
There are others in the pipeline. Hopefully something pops. It’s our best hope at this point.
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
Not to mention that falsifying a Death Certificate and sending it to the State is a felony in many States, CA included. Someone has to put their *ss on the line to sign those things.
And if you do it for financial gain? Now you have a case for fraud.
runrussellrun wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:23 pm
(omitted discussion of why there is an undercount)
ggait, you keep on ignoring the financial aspects of listing COVID on the death cert.
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
You are basing this statement on what? Is there a government agency that verifies that the death, by covid? Be logical. Who is checking that my cousin, did, in fact die from v-19, and NOT the alzehiemers he and the family had to deal with for the past few years. Are bodies being dug up? Sorry, gotta call you out on this. I have never heard, or read, anything like what you mention. That responsible, reporting agencies, are being checked for accuracies? What are the disincentives?
Seriously, why is it relevant that George Llyod tested positive for Covid? are all of you supporting his murder, to be listed as a covid death, and not a murder by pig?
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
Not to mention that falsifying a Death Certificate and sending it to the State is a felony in many States, CA included. Someone has to put their *ss on the line to sign those things.
And if you do it for financial gain? Now you have a case for fraud.
Nahhhh conspiracy man says it so it must be true.
I don't know the history behind finanicial payouts for listing a cause of death. Is this the first time, in US history, that the medical community gets money for what they put down as cause of death?
A felony? so what? What does that have to do with anything? Who is prosecuting falsified death certs? Does a family complain about it? The funeral home? The cemetary? Be logical.
In the real life example I keep providing. Would it have been a felony, to put down "alzheimers", as the cause of death for my cousin? Which he had. Even a medical diagnosis.
Without an autopsy, how does the medical community even know what caused a death?
I don't buy that ANYONE is checking, verifying, covid death payouts. Because, afterall, the medical world IS so pure
runrussellrun wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:23 pm
(omitted discussion of why there is an undercount)
ggait, you keep on ignoring the financial aspects of listing COVID on the death cert.
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
You are basing this statement on what? Is there a government agency that verifies that the death, by covid? Be logical. Who is checking that my cousin, did, in fact die from v-19, and NOT the alzehiemers he and the family had to deal with for the past few years. Are bodies being dug up? Sorry, gotta call you out on this. I have never heard, or read, anything like what you mention. That responsible, reporting agencies, are being checked for accuracies? What are the disincentives?
Seriously, why is it relevant that George Llyod tested positive for Covid? are all of you supporting his murder, to be listed as a covid death, and not a murder by pig?
The incentives are for the hospitals that treat the patients, so since they can be audited they will have to avoid fraud. In other words, they can via the bill passed that lets them get a bigger reimbursement if treating a patient with COVID-19. So they would have to be able to show a positive test to get that increased reimbursement.
A coroner has no financial incentive for a particular cause of death, so that dog don't hunt.
Alzheimer's is rarely the final complete and only cause of death for someone with it. But it will be a contributing factor. Same as COVID-19 - it can be both a primary cause or a contributing one. In either case, if the death was not likely to happen (which is what the excess death statistics are getting at) COVID can certainly be correctly listed.
No one is digging anyone up, although there are patients from early on in the pandemic where body tissue/sera samples were saved and have been tested after the fact to see the beginnings of the pandemic in the US.
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
Not to mention that falsifying a Death Certificate and sending it to the State is a felony in many States, CA included. Someone has to put their *ss on the line to sign those things.
And if you do it for financial gain? Now you have a case for fraud.
Nahhhh conspiracy man says it so it must be true.
I don't know the history behind finanicial payouts for listing a cause of death. Is this the first time, in US history, that the medical community gets money for what they put down as cause of death?
A felony? so what? What does that have to do with anything? Who is prosecuting falsified death certs? Does a family complain about it? The funeral home? The cemetary? Be logical.
In the real life example I keep providing. Would it have been a felony, to put down "alzheimers", as the cause of death for my cousin? Which he had. Even a medical diagnosis.
Without an autopsy, how does the medical community even know what caused a death?
I don't buy that ANYONE is checking, verifying, covid death payouts. Because, afterall, the medical world IS so pure
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
Not to mention that falsifying a Death Certificate and sending it to the State is a felony in many States, CA included. Someone has to put their *ss on the line to sign those things.
And if you do it for financial gain? Now you have a case for fraud.
Nahhhh conspiracy man says it so it must be true.
I don't know the history behind finanicial payouts for listing a cause of death. Is this the first time, in US history, that the medical community gets money for what they put down as cause of death?
A felony? so what? What does that have to do with anything? Who is prosecuting falsified death certs? Does a family complain about it? The funeral home? The cemetary? Be logical.
In the real life example I keep providing. Would it have been a felony, to put down "alzheimers", as the cause of death for my cousin? Which he had. Even a medical diagnosis.
Without an autopsy, how does the medical community even know what caused a death?
I don't buy that ANYONE is checking, verifying, covid death payouts. Because, afterall, the medical world IS so pure
It’s a global conspiracy
RRR has never dealt with medical reimbursements perhaps. You submit a code - it gets denied, you resubmit with further documentation, maybe it gets approved. Works that way with regular insurance and Medicare as well.
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
Not to mention that falsifying a Death Certificate and sending it to the State is a felony in many States, CA included. Someone has to put their *ss on the line to sign those things.
And if you do it for financial gain? Now you have a case for fraud.
Nahhhh conspiracy man says it so it must be true.
I don't know the history behind finanicial payouts for listing a cause of death. Is this the first time, in US history, that the medical community gets money for what they put down as cause of death?
A felony? so what? What does that have to do with anything? Who is prosecuting falsified death certs? Does a family complain about it? The funeral home? The cemetary? Be logical.
In the real life example I keep providing. Would it have been a felony, to put down "alzheimers", as the cause of death for my cousin? Which he had. Even a medical diagnosis.
Without an autopsy, how does the medical community even know what caused a death?
I don't buy that ANYONE is checking, verifying, covid death payouts. Because, afterall, the medical world IS so pure
It’s a global conspiracy
RRR has never dealt with medical reimbursements perhaps. You submit a code - it gets denied, you resubmit with further documentation, maybe it gets approved. Works that way with regular insurance and Medicare as well.
How much of a kicker does hospitals receive for COVID 19 deaths?
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
Not to mention that falsifying a Death Certificate and sending it to the State is a felony in many States, CA included. Someone has to put their *ss on the line to sign those things.
And if you do it for financial gain? Now you have a case for fraud.
Nahhhh conspiracy man says it so it must be true.
I don't know the history behind finanicial payouts for listing a cause of death. Is this the first time, in US history, that the medical community gets money for what they put down as cause of death?
A felony? so what? What does that have to do with anything? Who is prosecuting falsified death certs? Does a family complain about it? The funeral home? The cemetary? Be logical.
In the real life example I keep providing. Would it have been a felony, to put down "alzheimers", as the cause of death for my cousin? Which he had. Even a medical diagnosis.
Without an autopsy, how does the medical community even know what caused a death?
I don't buy that ANYONE is checking, verifying, covid death payouts. Because, afterall, the medical world IS so pure
It’s a global conspiracy
RRR has never dealt with medical reimbursements perhaps. You submit a code - it gets denied, you resubmit with further documentation, maybe it gets approved. Works that way with regular insurance and Medicare as well.
How much of a kicker does hospitals receive for COVID 19 deaths?
20% add-on.
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:04 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:28 pm
by kramerica.inc
Why are conspiracy theories running rampant?
Because the whole response to Corona has been effed up.
No one has gotten it right. No one tracked it or responded to it correctly at all.
Not China, Not the US, not Italy, not WHO, not the CDC, not Fauci, Not Trump, not CA, not NY, not FL, not anyone. Aside from maybe SK, who may have just gotten lucky with the strain they were infected with.
Stuff is going to happen. Use common sense. Dont go to China, wash your hands, look out for others. Respect people’s decisions, personal space and decisions.
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:32 pm
by kramerica.inc
“The science world says, we don’t know right now, and evidence changes.”
Yet we’ve been told for the past decade that the science for global warming, is infallible.
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
Not to mention that falsifying a Death Certificate and sending it to the State is a felony in many States, CA included. Someone has to put their *ss on the line to sign those things.
And if you do it for financial gain? Now you have a case for fraud.
Nahhhh conspiracy man says it so it must be true.
I don't know the history behind finanicial payouts for listing a cause of death. Is this the first time, in US history, that the medical community gets money for what they put down as cause of death?
A felony? so what? What does that have to do with anything? Who is prosecuting falsified death certs? Does a family complain about it? The funeral home? The cemetary? Be logical.
In the real life example I keep providing. Would it have been a felony, to put down "alzheimers", as the cause of death for my cousin? Which he had. Even a medical diagnosis.
Without an autopsy, how does the medical community even know what caused a death?
I don't buy that ANYONE is checking, verifying, covid death payouts. Because, afterall, the medical world IS so pure
It’s a global conspiracy
RRR has never dealt with medical reimbursements perhaps. You submit a code - it gets denied, you resubmit with further documentation, maybe it gets approved. Works that way with regular insurance and Medicare as well.
And there’s never a fudging of the numbers or adjustment to the “cost” or what specific procedure/treatment/prescription etc was prescribed...
When you can make up and negotiate the cost for a said procedure/treatment/drug/doctor’s rate etc, that is where the issue lies.
RedFromMI wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:30 pm
And any hospital would have to back up a claim of COVID in legally getting such an increased reimbursement. There are disincentives to get this wrong.
Not to mention that falsifying a Death Certificate and sending it to the State is a felony in many States, CA included. Someone has to put their *ss on the line to sign those things.
And if you do it for financial gain? Now you have a case for fraud.
Nahhhh conspiracy man says it so it must be true.
I don't know the history behind finanicial payouts for listing a cause of death. Is this the first time, in US history, that the medical community gets money for what they put down as cause of death?
A felony? so what? What does that have to do with anything? Who is prosecuting falsified death certs? Does a family complain about it? The funeral home? The cemetary? Be logical.
In the real life example I keep providing. Would it have been a felony, to put down "alzheimers", as the cause of death for my cousin? Which he had. Even a medical diagnosis.
Without an autopsy, how does the medical community even know what caused a death?
I don't buy that ANYONE is checking, verifying, covid death payouts. Because, afterall, the medical world IS so pure
It’s a global conspiracy
RRR has never dealt with medical reimbursements perhaps. You submit a code - it gets denied, you resubmit with further documentation, maybe it gets approved. Works that way with regular insurance and Medicare as well.
And there’s never a fudging of the numbers or adjustment to the “cost” or what specific procedure/treatment/prescription etc was prescribed...
When you can make up and negotiate the cost for a said procedure/treatment/drug/doctor’s rate etc, that is where the issue lies.
If it is Medicare - the cost is fixed by the government. The problem with our current system of a mismash of various private insurers plus government run/assisted insurances is that the bigger the negotiator (except the feds who have been prevented from doing so for drugs) the better the rates. If you are private and on your own you often are at the mercy of the hospital/doctor for your charges without any chance to negotiate.
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:33 pm
by ardilla secreta
Several University of Alabama football players test positive for Covid-19
They’re just returning to campus. With a huge roster and close contact, I don’t know how they expect to be able to play by September.
Two Marshall players, one staffer test positive for COVID-19
Three Oklahoma State players test positive for coronavirus, freshmen told not to report to campus
Article says players asymptomatic. Live virus or dead virus? Seem to remember positive tests in China of a possible reinfection were catching shed dead virus. Hope it’s the latter....fear it’s the former.
