LaxPower Back-Up Stick

I could have easily missed an explanation but I can't understand why it took Israeli military so long to respond to the initial attack. I believe it was hours.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:56 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:44 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:43 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:39 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:38 pm

Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:03 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:49 pm I get where he was coming from.....he needed to release his anger and anxiety in a positive way, in an attempt to help himself deal with all this. Ironically, he too, also believes the cash to Iran played a part (FTR I was chastised on here for simply asking the question about the money to Iran), I was surprised seacoaster didn't call him out as well.

Except the Iran cash idea is a LIE. The cash is in a Qatari Bank and none of it has been accessed yet. In any event, the cash can only go to an approved 3rd party for specific use and cannot be laundered as cash.

Continuing to bring it up does a disservice to all those lost or traumatized by events of last weekend and to the memory of those lost.

There may be much blame to go around but it should be directed at FACTS and not FICTION.

Read Dennis Ross (American envoy to Oslo Accords) and why Hamas doesn't want peace
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... k-00120498

Iran has had a hand in training and arming Hamas over the years. But yeah the cash thing is fake news.

There does not have to be a direct link to this attack. It's to punish Iran for helping Hamas to get to this point & to deter continued support of Hamas & Hezbollah. If not now, when ?

Why not just bomb them back to the Stone Age?

Why is no one being serious?

Everyone is serious. Many more so than you.

Definitely not you.

Are you serious about what resolution is actually necessary to end this seemingly endless cycle of atrocities? Nope. Just want to escalate the conflict to Iran...sheesh, what could go wrong with that?

Oh yeah, it would serve Putin...got it, that's the game.

Increasing sanctions against Iran for their support of Hamas & Hezbollah is not "bombing".
You should like it. Iran is also supporting Russia in Ukraine.
Have you noticed how CinC Biden is moving our military chess pieces ?

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

thanks; will go back.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:12 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:56 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:44 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:43 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:39 pm

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:38 pm

Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:03 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:49 pm I get where he was coming from.....he needed to release his anger and anxiety in a positive way, in an attempt to help himself deal with all this. Ironically, he too, also believes the cash to Iran played a part (FTR I was chastised on here for simply asking the question about the money to Iran), I was surprised seacoaster didn't call him out as well.

Except the Iran cash idea is a LIE. The cash is in a Qatari Bank and none of it has been accessed yet. In any event, the cash can only go to an approved 3rd party for specific use and cannot be laundered as cash.

Continuing to bring it up does a disservice to all those lost or traumatized by events of last weekend and to the memory of those lost.

There may be much blame to go around but it should be directed at FACTS and not FICTION.

Read Dennis Ross (American envoy to Oslo Accords) and why Hamas doesn't want peace
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... k-00120498

Iran has had a hand in training and arming Hamas over the years. But yeah the cash thing is fake news.

There does not have to be a direct link to this attack. It's to punish Iran for helping Hamas to get to this point & to deter continued support of Hamas & Hezbollah. If not now, when ?

Why not just bomb them back to the Stone Age?

Why is no one being serious?

Everyone is serious. Many more so than you.

Definitely not you.

Are you serious about what resolution is actually necessary to end this seemingly endless cycle of atrocities? Nope. Just want to escalate the conflict to Iran...sheesh, what could go wrong with that?

Oh yeah, it would serve Putin...got it, that's the game.

Increasing sanctions against Iran for their support of Hamas & Hezbollah is not "bombing".
You should like it. Iran is also supporting Russia in Ukraine.
Have you noticed how CinC Biden is moving our military chess pieces ?

ohh, believe me, I'm fine with tightening sanctions, but I think that reneging on a deal we made has all sorts of far reaching complications, so I'd reject that specific "tightening".

But don't escalate with Iran at this fraught moment. Too much else at stake.

and yes, hopefully the re-positioning will be a deterrent, not a provocation.
I think it was a realistic move given the pace of play.

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:03 pm I could have easily missed an explanation but I can't understand why it took Israeli military so long to respond to the initial attack. I believe it was hours.

Just read article kismet posted. Still it's mind boggling.

Someone had to know this was coming. If Egypt claims they warned Israel, how did Egypt know?

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

They heard what they wanted to hear.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:15 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:27 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:18 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:06 am I don't think elements of Bibi's current coalition want peace. I suspect if they had their way they' favor escalation...

I don't think you're wrong. But they want escalation so that... They can have peace. They want to make bold, violent moves to end this thing once and for all so that they can have peace. And, I guess, you can say the same for Hamas, Hitler, and many others. They want to wipe the Jews off the map so that... They can have peace. In theory, everybody wants peace. Everyone wants to resolve their internal issue. The challenge seems to be finding peace whilst trying to have a low impact on the world and the people around you. Using that criteria, I agree. Elements of Bibi's current coalition, including Bibi, are not concerned about being low impact.

security...not actual peace.

Peace means both sides have an interest in each other's happiness and prosperity and will not threaten such for either.

Bibi & Israel's other leaders wanted peace so badly, they were tricked into thinking they could trust Hamas.
They were fooled by a very sophisticated disinfo op (see the NYT analyis posted earlier).

LMAO Bibi wanted a stronger Hamas to keep Gaza and the West Bank divided. He propped them up to prevent any peaceful diplomatic solution that may give the Palestinians an inch. It's not that he wanted peace at all, far from it, he wanted full control.

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman [Republican] says - whoops.

You light up the board over 4 American deaths in the Benghazi attacks and lack of preparation on the anniversary of 9/11. And now you're covering for Netanyahu for being absent on the anniversary of the Yom Kippur War? With hundreds to thousands dead?

Clown show.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

They heard what they wanted to hear.

Yep.

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:15 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:27 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:18 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:06 am I don't think elements of Bibi's current coalition want peace. I suspect if they had their way they' favor escalation...

I don't think you're wrong. But they want escalation so that... They can have peace. They want to make bold, violent moves to end this thing once and for all so that they can have peace. And, I guess, you can say the same for Hamas, Hitler, and many others. They want to wipe the Jews off the map so that... They can have peace. In theory, everybody wants peace. Everyone wants to resolve their internal issue. The challenge seems to be finding peace whilst trying to have a low impact on the world and the people around you. Using that criteria, I agree. Elements of Bibi's current coalition, including Bibi, are not concerned about being low impact.

security...not actual peace.

Peace means both sides have an interest in each other's happiness and prosperity and will not threaten such for either.

Bibi & Israel's other leaders wanted peace so badly, they were tricked into thinking they could trust Hamas.
They were fooled by a very sophisticated disinfo op (see the NYT analyis posted earlier).

LMAO Bibi wanted a stronger Hamas to keep Gaza and the West Bank divided. He propped them up to prevent any peaceful diplomatic solution that may give the Palestinians an inch. It's not that he wanted peace at all, far from it, he wanted full control.

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman [Republican] says - whoops.

You light up the board over 4 American deaths in the Benghazi attacks and lack of preparation on the anniversary of 9/11. And now you're covering for Netanyahu for being absent on the anniversary of the Yom Kippur War? With hundreds to thousands dead?

Clown show.

Maybe you should wait for some facts before reverting to your politically biased condemnations.
That NYT analysis is the most factual I've seen yet. I'm sure there will be more.
Given missed signals, from 9-11 to Benghazi to Jan 6th, we're hardly positioned to second guess.
From your BBC link : According to the Financial Times, quoting two unnamed officials familiar with the matter, there was no hard intelligence of a specific attack.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

That NYT analysis makes many of the same points as the Dennis Ross interview you posted.
Both make the point that Bibi tried to work with Hamas, & neither makes the same hate filled, over-the-top, politically biased accusations against him that you & Friedman make.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:58 am Someone explain to me why the US has deployed two (2!) strike groups to the Europe/Med?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_Strike_Group_12

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_Strike_Group_2

Putin would love to see a maritime loss. Bloody the US nose by proxy. Iran makes quite a few "ship-killers." Working on stealth and unmanned "drone" surface vessels as well.

Never, ever get between the dog and the tree. You'd think we would have learned that lesson in October, 1983 in Beirut (part of the reason I declined the full ride from the US Navy). Spoke with my father, a former naval officer (who was enthusiastic about not paying for my education) about the Marine Corps barracks bombing shortly after that event. He told me the world was different from his service (Korean War), and that the situation in Israel/Palestine was an intractable mess. Well, he was right. Glad I could hear what he was saying and act accordingly.

It's not a big deal. The Ford strike group was already in the E Med, within range to bomb Russian forces in Ukraine & Black Sea.
They just sailed S for a day & are now in range to deter Hezbollah from attacking Israel from Lebanon & S Syria.
The Ike strike group was already sched to sail from Norfolk on Fri to relieve the Ford strike group on station.
The Ford group can extend if needed but that does not appear likely unless things heat up.

We also have an amphip LPD - USS Mesa Verde in the E Med now. It has 800 Marines & V-22's which could help in hostage rescue or evac of US citizens. Rest assured, nobody's forgetting Beirut "83, especially the Marines.

The other 2 larger amphibs, with the rest of the Marine Expeditionary Unit, is the Baatan ARG. It is deep inside the Persian Gulf, giving Iran something to think about. Also in the Gulf, USAF F-35/F-15's are headed back to join F-16/A-10's already at our air bases in Kuwait, UAE &/or Qatar.

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:03 pm Regarding the cash: until Biden refreezes it, it backfills Iran coffers, no?

Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi told NBC News' Lester Holt in an interview last month that his government would spend the money “wherever we need it.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna119961

It’s money in the bank.no?

Ebrahim is lying for domestic consumption. The US can freeze the money anytime it wants. US can freeze all of it or it can freeze it incrementally. Currently none of these $ have been drawn down or attempted to have been. Also let's not pretend it is US property. It rightfully belongs to Iran, we have insisted on the ability to tightly monitor it and approve expenditures in return for allowing them to sell some oil to support internal humanitarian relief.

I see no reason to freeze it at this point, may come a time it makes sense, but we have sufficient flexibility. No reason to prematurely freeze it when we have time to wait and see. What happens if we freeze it -- renege on our deal -- it will impact negatively on our ability to negotiate future prisoner releases. We will still have to deal with these folks in the future. No reason to just poke them in the eye where it will not matter. Frozen, unfrozen -- it will not change one f*cking thing on the ground. Hamas has already got all the weapons they are going to possess for this battle. No one can seriously believe Iran is going to be able to sneak in one more bullet or bomb with any money they might spend.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:45 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

That NYT analysis makes many of the same points as the Dennis Ross interview you posted.
Both make the point that Bibi tried to work with Hamas, & neither makes the same hate filled, over-the-top, politically biased accusations against him that you & Friedman make.

Did I quote or parrot Friedman???

Did I post a Dennis Ross interview???

Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.

I read the article you pointed to and it definitely doesn't suggest that Netanyahu "wanted peace"; it only suggests that Israeli intelligence was fooled by Hamas' head fakes that they weren't preparing for immediate aggression, certainly nothing along the lines of this scale.

sure, it was what they "wanted to hear", given their focus on Israel's own aggressive actions in the West Bank...they 'wanted to hear' that Hamas was weak and passive, that subjugation was working in that quarter...clearly it wasn't.

That's why I said the article didn't address the errors in strategy, only focused on the operational and intelligence failures.

The strategy has been completely broken; it was just a matter of time.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:55 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:45 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

That NYT analysis makes many of the same points as the Dennis Ross interview you posted.
Both make the point that Bibi tried to work with Hamas, & neither makes the same hate filled, over-the-top, politically biased accusations against him that you & Friedman make.

Did I quote or parrot Friedman???

Did I post a Dennis Ross interview???

Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.

I read the article you pointed to and it definitely doesn't suggest that Netanyahu "wanted peace"; it only suggests that Israeli intelligence was fooled by Hamas' head fakes that they weren't preparing for immediate aggression, certainly nothing along the lines of this scale.

sure, it was what they "wanted to hear", given their focus on Israel's own aggressive actions in the West Bank...they 'wanted to hear' that Hamas was weak and passive, that subjugation was working in that quarter...clearly it wasn't.

That's why I said the article didn't address the errors in strategy, only focused on the operational and intelligence failures.

The strategy has been completely broken; it was just a matter of time.

An entirely new strategy is being put into play. I bet you won't like it one damn bit.

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 9:09 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:55 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:45 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:24 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:06 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:54 pm I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

That NYT analysis makes many of the same points as the Dennis Ross interview you posted.
Both make the point that Bibi tried to work with Hamas, & neither makes the same hate filled, over-the-top, politically biased accusations against him that you & Friedman make.

Did I quote or parrot Friedman???

Did I post a Dennis Ross interview???

Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.

I read the article you pointed to and it definitely doesn't suggest that Netanyahu "wanted peace"; it only suggests that Israeli intelligence was fooled by Hamas' head fakes that they weren't preparing for immediate aggression, certainly nothing along the lines of this scale.

sure, it was what they "wanted to hear", given their focus on Israel's own aggressive actions in the West Bank...they 'wanted to hear' that Hamas was weak and passive, that subjugation was working in that quarter...clearly it wasn't.

That's why I said the article didn't address the errors in strategy, only focused on the operational and intelligence failures.

The strategy has been completely broken; it was just a matter of time.

An entirely new strategy is being put into play. I bet you won't like it one damn bit.

"like it"??? I don't think many Americans, or Israelis even, will "like it".
It's going to be truly awful bloodshed on a mass scale, I predict.

A whole lot of Israelis are going to be killed as well as huge numbers of Palestinian citizens.

I can't "like it".

But let's not kid ourselves by calling that a pathway to "peace".
It's only going to deepen the generational hate and violence.
Of course, that's what Hamas and related extremists wants...

More than 50% of Gaza residents are under the age of 18...they're going through immense trauma and will lose many family members and friends to Israeli rockets and bullets, many courtesy of the USA.

Until the strategy presents at least a pathway to, and a hope for, true peace, with not only mutual respect and security, but an actual stake in each other's happiness and prosperity, supported by neighbors and the international community, the only pathway for this generation will be more "resistance"...meaning asymmetric war...terror...

Now, if you're saying the new strategy will be complete genocide of all Palestinians....?

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:15 pmBibi & Israel's other leaders wanted peace so badly, they were tricked into thinking they could trust Hamas. They were fooled by a very sophisticated disinfo op (see the NYT analyis posted earlier).

That first sentence is the most disingenuously mis-guided thing you may have ever said, and there is a large body of work to choose from there.

"Peace" to Bibi means "stay in your cage and keep your mouth shut." He's radically right-wing, you understand that, right? Always has been, always will be.

The news is all about how Israel "left" Gaza, left it to the Palestinians and well, they got what THEY wanted, so why would they pull off the sort of barbaric atrocities we saw last weekend?

Why indeed.

Read this recent Report which makes pretty darn clear that Hamas is overly militant and has suppressed political change in Gaza. They need to go. Hamas needs to be vilified and run out of Gaza on a rail, if not outright eliminated. These heinous atrocities need to be prosecuted vigorously.

But by a ground war with door-to-door fighting? Bombing with huge munitions? How will they tell Hamas members from "regular" citizens of Gaza? Do they care to differentiate?

The Israeli blockade of Gaza has effectively stopped Palestinians from evolving their society in Gaza. No airport, control of their water, electricity, imports and exports...it is a PRISON controlled by the guy you think is so desirous of peace. Peace on his terms no doubt, and just WHAT do you think are his terms?

He himself will NEVER allow a two-state solution. Saying he could be "fooled" by Hamas is just ignorant.

..

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:25 pm ... Indeed, according to this link, a minority of fundamentalist Jews, though Satmar are the largest such sect of anti-zionist Orthodox Jews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism... Most Orthodox Jews at least accept zionism and Israel according to these citations. They read the same Torah... Satmar, at least by ideology, do not accept zionism, vehemently at times. That doesn't mean that all Satmar are necessarily uniform in their adherence to this or any other part of the ideology, but probably fair to paint with that brush generally speaking.

When you say "Satmar, at least by ideology, do not accept zionism, vehemently at times" what do you mean? My experience is very different. During the foundation of the state of Israel, Satmar thought Jews replacing the British mandate was a mistake but numerous decades later, Satmar chasidim recognize that the toothpaste is out of the tube and have a very different perspective. They personally may not want to live in Israel but they 100% support Israel's right to exist. They most certainly do not support Hamas and the anti-zionistic causes. (The Neturei Karta is a different story.) That said, even if you want to call Satmar Chasidim "anti-zionists" which, again, is simply inaccurate, there are 100,000 Satmar chasidim. (The Neturei Karta are a fraction of this, a much smaller group.) There are 2 million orthodox Jews. That means Satmar Chasidim are 0.05% of the orthodox jewish population. That's not a minority. That's an insignificant minority. And, again, Satmar Chasidim aren't even anti-zionists in the way that most americans discuss anti-zionists. i.e. They do not want the Jews out of Israel. That would be the Neturei Karta who would be around 0.01% of the orthodox population. Again, very small, not significant. 99.99% of orthodox Jews accept/support zionism and Israel... which I guess is "most" as you're saying but... You see what I'm saying. One would not be wrong to say "all".

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:25 pmthere are many valid ways to 'read' and argue about the meaning of these sacred texts, rabbinic midrash. Eye-opening to this Christian used to having the priest or minister tell us what the Bible says and not really questioning it...but it's all open to question, indeed that may be the point!

What you're pointing at is a unique aspect of Judaism. People tend to look at observant (orthodox) Jews, Jews who live Torah-based lives as uniform, monolithic and there is some truth to this. Orthodox Jews can dress similarly, vacation similarly, go to similar schools, etc. and... So do all people. This is the nature of anthropology, sociology. i.e. Satmar chasidim point at Roland Park and their kids going to MIAA schools and wearing Vineyard Vines and etc. in a similar way to the Roland Park people point at the Satmar Chasidim. That aside, a unique aspect of Judaism is Jews don't have a, so to speak, pope. Jews live according to Jewish law and while there are universal laws, the laws are different for each, so to speak, jurisdiction. Very democratic, very subjective, very community-centered, very individual-centered. Jews question everything and encouraged to do so because the answer needs to be the answer for that individual. A unique thing, a good thing.

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:18 pm Just read article kismet posted. Still it's mind boggling.
Someone had to know this was coming. If Egypt claims they warned Israel, how did Egypt know?

Why so mind boggling? Too many stories of the US receiving intelligence that was ignored or minimized. Israel and America get a *lot* of intelligence related to threats.