Trump's Russian Collusion

[ggait]

We've all agreed that Trump's a bad guy. Our fellow citizens voted him into office. There's nothing we can do about it, so get over it.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

At the beginning of the constitutional debates, folks like Gouverneur Morris and Charles Pinckney agreed with this view. You don't need impeachment -- since there would always be another election coming up.

Morris eventually changed his mind and went with Madison, Franklin, Hamilton, Mason etc.

The voters always have the final say -- and they will here too. Since senators and representatives (just like the president) eventually face re-election.

[MDlaxfan76]

We've all agreed that Trump's a bad guy. Our fellow citizens voted him into office. There's nothing we can do about it, so get over it.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

At the beginning of the constitutional debates, folks like Gouverneur Morris and Charles Pinckney agreed with this view. You don't need impeachment -- since there would always be another election coming up.

Morris eventually changed his mind and went with Madison, Franklin, Hamilton, Mason etc.

The voters always have the final say -- and they will here too. Since senators and representatives (just like the president) eventually face re-election.

Assuming our constitutional republic truly does survive Trumpism.
No guarantee of that, though.

[jhu72]

Not sure there are any Dem Senators actually vulnerable, so I doubt there will be any defections on their side.

Not so sure about that - Jones (AL), Sinema (AZ) and Manchin (WV) - the latter two are not up in 2020 but neither are sure votes for removal.

Jones is the only one vulnerable. I will be very surprised if any other democratic senator votes against impeachment. Actually I'll be mildly surprised if Jones votes against impeachment. His position is razor's edge, best to go with do the right thing.

[DMac]

old salt wrote
Trump's our duly elected President & CinC.

Why do you use this line, salty, and then sometimes throw the "get over it" part on too?
This is Bandito level stuff, comes from people who are ignorant and don't know enough to have an intelligent discussion with. You are neither of those, you need to drop that childish line. There's nobody here who doesn't know that and it's just a line used to antagonize. Officer and a gentleman, and all that, ya know. You're much better than that.
Do have a question for you, you have agreed with others here who have said that Trump is unfit for office (the oval one). It would be hard to deduct from your posts why you'd say that. What makes him unfit, why would you say (agree with) that?

[ggait]

Not sure there are any Dem Senators actually vulnerable, so I doubt there will be any defections on their side.

Not so sure about that - Jones (AL), Sinema (AZ) and Manchin (WV) - the latter two are not up in 2020 but neither are sure votes for removal.

Below is a good run down of who might be in play in the Senate.

Trump high water would be 56-44. All 53 GOP hold and Jones, Sinema, Manchin flip.

More likely is 54-46 (Manchin flips) or 53-47 (straight party line) or 51-49 (Romney, Murkowski flip).

Dumb for Jones or Sinema to flip. Jones is DOA in Alabama regardless, and sucking up to Trump in a shameless way won't serve him well in his future endeavors. In swingy AZ, Sinema likely loses more votes than she gains by going for Trump.

Manchin can do whatever he feels like and has an interesting/complicated play. He probably is trying to figure out if he gets more power in the 2021 Senate as the swing vote for the GOP or for the Dems. Seems like his downside (vote for Trump and then the Dems win WH and/or Senate in 2020) is bigger than his upside (vote for Trump and GOP holds WH and Senate in 2020).

There's definitely an opportunity for several GOP-ers to go "country over party" and make a big splash for themselves. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Outgoing moderates like Burr and Alexander could get some principled statesman burnish for their remaining careers. The Trump era is unlikely to age well and could end in as little as 11 months. So you'd think their book deals, speaking fees, corporate board opportunities, lobbying jobs and university/think tank opportunities would be much better if branded as a non-partisan statesman. You vote for Trump and you are just one of many Trump toadies who just fell in line like a sheep. Nobody cares about paying to hear that guy's speech or to read his book.

Sasse if he wanted to (but he won't) could grab the pole position in the post-Trump GOP by flipping. Same with Gardner, who is DOA in Colorado regardless of how he votes. Short term says vote for Trump; the long game says vote against Trump.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wh ... s-removal/

[seacoaster]

Not sure there are any Dem Senators actually vulnerable, so I doubt there will be any defections on their side.

Not so sure about that - Jones (AL), Sinema (AZ) and Manchin (WV) - the latter two are not up in 2020 but neither are sure votes for removal.

Below is a good run down of who might be in play in the Senate.

Trump high water would be 56-44. All 53 GOP hold and Jones, Sinema, Manchin flip.

More likely is 54-46 (Manchin flips) or 53-47 (straight party line) or 51-49 (Romney, Murkowski flip).

Dumb for Jones or Sinema to flip. Jones is DOA in Alabama regardless, and sucking up to Trump in a shameless way won't serve him well in his future endeavors. In swingy AZ, Sinema likely loses more votes than she gains by going for Trump.

Manchin can do whatever he feels like and has an interesting/complicated play. He probably is trying to figure out if he gets more power in the 2021 Senate as the swing vote for the GOP or for the Dems. Seems like his downside (vote for Trump and then the Dems win WH and/or Senate in 2020) is bigger than his upside (vote for Trump and GOP holds WH and Senate in 2020).

There's definitely an opportunity for several GOP-ers to go "country over party" and make a big splash for themselves. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Outgoing moderates like Burr and Alexander could get some principled statesman burnish for their remaining careers. The Trump era is unlikely to age well and could end in as little as 11 months. So you'd think their book deals, speaking fees, corporate board opportunities, lobbying jobs and university/think tank opportunities would be much better if branded as a non-partisan statesman. You vote for Trump and you are just one of many Trump toadies who just fell in line like a sheep. Nobody cares about paying to hear that guy's speech or to read his book.

Sasse if he wanted to (but he won't) could grab the pole position in the post-Trump GOP by flipping. Same with Gardner, who is DOA in Colorado regardless of how he votes. Short term says vote for Trump; the long game says vote against Trump.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wh ... s-removal/

Great post. Thanks.

[old salt]

old salt wrote
Trump's our duly elected President & CinC.

Why do you use this line, salty, and then sometimes throw the "get over it" part on too?
This is Bandito level stuff, comes from people who are ignorant and don't know enough to have an intelligent discussion with. You are neither of those, you need to drop that childish line. There's nobody here who doesn't know that and it's just a line used to antagonize. Officer and a gentleman, and all that, ya know. You're much better than that.
Do have a question for you, you have agreed with others here who have said that Trump is unfit for office (the oval one). It would be hard to deduct from your posts why you'd say that. What makes him unfit, why would you say (agree with) that?

The "get over it" is directed at those who refuse to accept that Trump is our duly elected President & CinC.
They've spent 3 years whining about how he's illegitimate because of the Russians, or the Electoral College, or any other straw they can grasp in trying to remove him from office.

Bandito level stuff ? Being repeatedly called a liar, having my honor, patriotism or loyalty to my country questioned, being accused of being a Russian agent or sympathizer, because I defend our duly elected CinC -- that earns a response in kind.

I wasn't shy in voicing my critiques of Obama's policies & decisions, but I never questioned his character or commitment to the country. I afforded him the respect due our President & CinC. I respected the decision of my fellow citizens who voted him into office, even when I disagreed. I voiced my reservations about Obama's decisions to withdraw from Iraq, surge in Afghanistan, & give Iran the JCPOA. I said I hoped I was wrong & if Obama was right, I'd be happy to see him on Mt Rushmore.

I've repeatedly stated my opinion that Trump is unfit to be President, due to temperment, judgement, integrity, leadership & statesmanship.
What's the point in constantly beating that dead horse, while ignoring his policies & success.
He may be a terrible human being, but he has keen animal instincts & connects with our masses too long ignored by our elites.
He has sound policies (imho) & is accomplishing them, despite lack of support from his opponents on issues that are clearly in the best interests of the country. I'm more interested in results, rather than rhetoric, substance rather than style.

His opponents would rather see him fail than succeed in doing good things for the country. When I've initially disagreed with him, I've been surprised how well things have worked out. Either Trump has been our luckiest President ever, or he has solid instincts. He's broken a lot of china, but change was overdue.

[DMac]

Good post, lot of truth there, thanks.
That's too many ignorant Trump supporters go to line when they're stumped and/or don't really know what they're talking about, which is why it annoys me.

31-7 Navy gotta love that. Was at the '73 game
when Navy beat Army 51-0.

[a fan]

The "get over it" is directed at those who refuse to accept that Trump is our duly elected President & CinC.
They've spent 3 years whining about how he's illegitimate because of the Russians, or the Electoral College, or any other straw they can grasp in trying to remove him from office.

There isn't a single poster who refuses to accept that Trump won the election. If I'm mistaken, that poster can speak for himself.

You're hearing what you and, as usual, FoxNation wants to hear.

What these posters are ACTUALLY saying is that 20 years ago, Trump would have been thrown out of office at any number of points, for any number of reasons....and we can't believe Republican voters don't care about Trump's behavior. They impeached Clinton by using the FBI to put a wire on Linda Tripp....to get Monica to spill the beans about entirely lawful sex.

20 years ago, here's a greatest hits would have, without question, lead to impeachment hearings:

1. violations of the emoluments clause. Repeatedly. Ongoing. Millions of dollars. Allowed without so much as a peep
2. Paying off a prostitute/porn star during the election. Are you even kidding me with this stuff?
3. Meeting with Russian spies in the very f-ing building Trump owns and lives. Any consequences? Hell no. It's all cool.
4. Obstruction of Congress at every turn.
5. Firing Comey. Ordering Mueller fired.
6. Using Ukraine to go after Biden.

So yep, those of us with a pulse are stunned our fellow Americans don't care about these things. That's why we keep asking you questions. We're in stunned silence that you're not livid about how Trump is treating his office. How he is treating America.

And so yep, with each repeated Trump offense, we say to ourselves, "ok, this has GOT to be the line for Old Salt". Nope. Not only are none of things Trump has done out of bounds for you, you come back and call us insane for deigning to think his behavior is wrong.

I wasn't shy in voicing my critiques of Obama's policies & decisions, but I never questioned his character or commitment to the country.

Ummm, yes you did. Remember how you, 6ftstick and others wrongfully hopped on the FoxNation bandwagon, and called Obama's travels overseas an "apology tour". I sure do. Never mind that he never once used anything close to the word "apologize" at any point.

I've repeatedly stated my opinion that Trump is unfit to be President, due to temperment, judgement, integrity, leadership & statesmanship.
What's the point in constantly beating that dead horse

For the exact same reason you beat the same dead horse with Obama....effortlessly. Breathlessly.

He may be a terrible human being, but he has keen animal instincts & connects with our masses too long ignored by our elites.

Yes. He's a demagogue. PT Barnum connected with the masses using exaggeration, lies, and sleight of hand. Admirable in a showman, disgusting when it's the leader of the free world.

And he's royally screwing these same masses of people. They're just too stubborn to see it. They'll find out soon enough. And blame everyone but Trump for the fact that they can't take their kid in for a checkup at the doctor, or can't educate their kids or give medical care to their grandma because Trump made us blow a cool $1 Trillion+ on interest payments, so we can't afford education or Medicare anymore.

Oh well. The libs tried to warn them.

He has sound policies (imho) & is accomplishing them, despite lack of support from his opponents on issues that are clearly in the best interests of the country. I'm more interested in results, rather than rhetoric, substance rather than style.

He has accomplished two of his planks. Tax cut for guys like me. And took care of the military short term.

But because of the insane tax cuts, in a few short years we're going to be spending more on interest than we are the military. Guess what that will mean for our military in a few short years? But what does Trump care? He knows doggone well guys like you won't blame him for taking care of the present by selling out the future. He knows fully well you'll blame it on the next Dem President to move in to the White House.

As for the rest:

No deal with Iran
No deal with N Korea
No trade deal with China
No trade deal with EU
New Nafta isn't protecting American workers in any meaningful way
Borders are still open, no immigration reform
Wall isn't even close to being built (notice the massive spending bill that was signed this week STILL doesn't fund the wall?)
No repeal and replace

Further, the deficit hit a record, and government is bigger than it has ever been. Oh well. I'm just going to take my tax cuts, eat popcorn, and watch rural America burn. Oh look----another rural hospital closed. Vote Trump, right?

[njbill]

I don't pretend to know how Manchin will vote, but let me offer this. He is 72. He isn't up again until 2024, when he will be 77. Does he intend to run again? If not, that suggests to me he may vote to convict. If he does intend to run, how important does he think his impeachment vote in Jan. 2020 will be almost five years later in Nov. 2024? Lots of water over the dam by then. Will W Va voters still remember his impeachment vote? Sure, but I don't think it's altogether clear how much a guilty vote would hurt him in 2024, particularly if he has been able to bring home the bacon.

[cradleandshoot]

We've all agreed that Trump's a bad guy. Our fellow citizens voted him into office. There's nothing we can do about it, so get over it.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

At the beginning of the constitutional debates, folks like Gouverneur Morris and Charles Pinckney agreed with this view. You don't need impeachment -- since there would always be another election coming up.

Morris eventually changed his mind and went with Madison, Franklin, Hamilton, Mason etc.

The voters always have the final say -- and they will here too. Since senators and representatives (just like the president) eventually face re-election.

Assuming our constitutional republic truly does survive Trumpism.
No guarantee of that, though.

You are way smarter than that MD. We butt heads here all the time but Americans are much stronger than to think a person like Trump can ruin our nation. Trump is a symptom, the disease is the hatred between both parties. Trump will go away, the political hatred... not so much.

[cradleandshoot]

Good post, lot of truth there, thanks.
That's too many ignorant Trump supporters go to line when they're stumped and/or don't really know what they're talking about, which is why it annoys me.

31-7 Navy gotta love that. Was at the '73 game
when Navy beat Army 51-0.

Good win for you squid boy. I'm going to have a big helping of chit on a shingle for breakfast in your honor. That is the breakfast of choice of all sea going bell hops... I think Army let em win. It sure looked like they had no interest in winning by the way they played.

[ggait]

Manchin is in a very interesting spot.

As the most conservative Dem, he could be the single most important vote in the next Senate depending on how 2020 shakes out. He could bring home a lot of pork that way.

So does he max out his power by being the 51st Dem vote or the 51st Rep vote? It is a complex algorithm for him to figure out.

Agree his vote won’t be much influenced by re-election concerns.

[Trinity]

Graham and Moscow Mitch pre-announce they will not honor their sworn oaths as Senate jurors.

[MDlaxfan76]

We've all agreed that Trump's a bad guy. Our fellow citizens voted him into office. There's nothing we can do about it, so get over it.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

At the beginning of the constitutional debates, folks like Gouverneur Morris and Charles Pinckney agreed with this view. You don't need impeachment -- since there would always be another election coming up.

Morris eventually changed his mind and went with Madison, Franklin, Hamilton, Mason etc.

The voters always have the final say -- and they will here too. Since senators and representatives (just like the president) eventually face re-election.

Assuming our constitutional republic truly does survive Trumpism.
No guarantee of that, though.

You are way smarter than that MD. We butt heads here all the time but Americans are much stronger than to think a person like Trump can ruin our nation. Trump is a symptom, the disease is the hatred between both parties. Trump will go away, the political hatred... not so much.

I dunno, cradle.
Certainly the odds are that Trump will "go away", but it truly is not guaranteed.

Do you really think it's impossible for a President to continue beyond two terms?

[Trinity]

Vote the articles of Impeachment and hold them in the House. Don’t name managers. Agree with Mitch and Linds. We SHOULD wait for the courts and hope they deliver necessary documents and witnesses at all possible speed. Everyone can then campaign to their hearts content. Sounds unfair? Trump can clear his name anytime he wants. Answer a subpoena. Allow the witnesses to testify.

[MDlaxfan76]

Vote the articles of Impeachment and hold them in the House. Don’t name managers. Agree with Mitch and Linds. We SHOULD wait for the courts and hope they deliver necessary documents and witnesses at all possible speed. Everyone can then campaign to their hearts content. Sounds unfair? Trump can clear his name anytime he wants. Answer a subpoena. Allow the witnesses to testify.

So...do the rules allow that?

It solves for me the concern I have that the refusal to comply with all subpoenas related to the impeachment is allowed to stand.

[Trinity]

I think they can stall if they don’t choose Impeachment managers....but of course I was foot cop. I’m not sure how to ensure a fair trial of the facts. Bolton should have to testify. Giuliani. Pence. Pompeo. They work for us. Well, not Rudy. Why did they try so hard to get only THE ANNOUNCEMENT of a Burisma investigation if they cared about corruption in Ukraine? Why are they pumping Russian propaganda into the American bloodstream?

[cradleandshoot]

We've all agreed that Trump's a bad guy. Our fellow citizens voted him into office. There's nothing we can do about it, so get over it.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

At the beginning of the constitutional debates, folks like Gouverneur Morris and Charles Pinckney agreed with this view. You don't need impeachment -- since there would always be another election coming up.

Morris eventually changed his mind and went with Madison, Franklin, Hamilton, Mason etc.

The voters always have the final say -- and they will here too. Since senators and representatives (just like the president) eventually face re-election.

Assuming our constitutional republic truly does survive Trumpism.
No guarantee of that, though
Do you really think it's impossible for a President to continue beyond two terms?.

You are way smarter than that MD. We butt heads here all the time but Americans are much stronger than to think a person like Trump can ruin our nation. Trump is
Do you really think it's impossible for a President to continue beyond two terms?a symptom, the disease is the hatred between both parties. Trump will go away, the political hatred... not so much.

I dunno, cradle.
Certainly the odds are that Trump will "go away", but it truly is not guaranteed.

Do you really think it's impossible for a President to continue beyond two terms?

When it comes to how things are done in DC... nothing is impossible. We both know what it would take for that to happen. It is not out of the realm of possibility for Trump to try and do so. The Democrats do have a chance to make him a one termer. They are letting the opportunity slip through their hands. Joe Biden is the only person who connects with moderate Ds and Rs and independents. Joes problem starts when he opens his mouth and starts to ramble. He says some really bizarre things. He should be like a pitcher in baseball and held to a very short pitch count.

[ggait]

Vote the articles of Impeachment and hold them in the House. Don’t name managers.

Not going to happen, obviously. And dumb to hold up the process for Bolton, Pompeo, McGahn, etc. Since it would take two years to actually get testimony from them.

But once the House votes on the articles of impeachment, I think the president is impeached, the House process is over, and the Senate process starts. So not naming managers for the Senate process would be violating the constitutional directive. It wold be the House obstructing the Senate.

If you want to hit the pause button, I think you would have to avoid a full House vote on the articles. Just leave it at the House Judiciary vote.