Trump's Russian Collusion

[youthathletics]

I meant predominantly....my bad. Just a reminder, you were wrong last time.

[MDlaxfan76]

I meant predominantly....my bad. Just a reminder, you were wrong last time.

I'm frequently 'wrong', never in doubt though...

no worries...nope, unions are not "predominant" in those cities...not really in any state.
Again, they represent just 11% of the workforce.

Which isn't to say that they aren't influential, given that they do play an outsized advocacy role relative to their % by virtue of their organizing.

[old salt]

MDLF76:
So, I just watched a clip of Horowitz definitively saying that that the Steele Dossier was not in any way used as a predicate for the opening of the investigation as it was not known to exist at that point.

While there is plenty to criticize about the Steele claims and the FISA process, the Trumpist conflation of the FISA on Carter Page with the actual predicates of the investigation is the real sham. It's always been a distraction from the very real reasons why Trump and those around him attracted so much attention in the context of a detected and very real Russian active measures campaign to benefit him and hurt his opponent.

Noticed you are dismissive of Parnas and Russia payment?

Too bad the FBI couldn't say the Steele Dossier was the predicate for starting the investigation, because by the time they were called to account, it had been discredited & all they had for a predicate was Papadop's London wine bar telephone game.

The point of the Rolling Stone article was that it called out the MSM for the way they fell for the dossier & all the leaks it generated.
Simpson & Steele made fools of the MSM.

Too soon to believe anything Parnas says -- just ask Vicky Ward, Chris Cuomo & CNN.
Everything coming out of Ukraine is suspect.

[seacoaster]

We are getting a little ahead of things, but Rubin nails it here:

"When you say someone has “no case,” it is usually meant figuratively, as in “they have a weak legal or factual position.” In the case of President Trump, Senate Republicans are making it clear that he literally has no case, no defense.

Bloomberg reports, “Senate Republicans say there is an early consensus building within their ranks for a short impeachment trial that could see the GOP-led chamber vote on a likely acquittal of President Donald Trump without hearing from any witnesses.”

That would be such a ridiculous dereliction of duty, such an obvious sign they are toadies of the president, that I sort of hope they do it. The American people would see the House bring forth 17 witnesses, more than 100 hours of testimony while the Senate has, well, nothing. It’s not clear frankly that you can have a “trial” without witnesses or evidence. The suggestion raises several critical point.

First, it could not be clearer that all the bravado about calling all kinds of witnesses from Joe Biden to Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D-Calif.) was utter nonsense. These witnesses, if anything, would make matters worse for the president by exposing that his CrowdStrike conspiracy was total bunk and that there was no basis that Biden did anything wrong. Matt Miller, former Justice Department spokesman, tells me, “This looks like a sign of weakness, not strength from [Senate Majority Leader Mitch] McConnell. For all of Trump’s bluster, this seems to indicate that Senate Republicans believe a fair Senate trial hurts their political prospects.”

Second, it would be the final capstone to an extraordinary process in which Republicans refuse to grapple with the facts. They demand we read the rough transcript of the July 25 call, but that proves the case against Trump: He mentioned the Bidens (not “corruption”), told the Ukrainians to talk to his bag man Rudolph W. Giuliani and pressured, not merely invited, foreign interference in our election (“a favor though”).

Former prosecutor Joyce White Vance tells me, “Democrats likely expected this. I think they’re now well served by the narrow, very specific resolution on impeachment.” She explains, “Both of the articles rely on facts that are uncontested based upon review of the transcripts of earlier witness testimony. The ball is in the Republicans’ court; they can either condemn Trump’s misconduct or they can condone it.”

Third, this stunt makes the article of impeachment on obstruction of Congress all the more compelling. The Senate is saying none of these witnesses directly implicates Trump, that is, there is no substitute for the direct witnesses (e.g., acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, former national security adviser John Bolton) Trump is preventing from appearing. Frankly, it makes the Senate complicit in obstruction.

Constitutional scholar Laurence Tribe, who has provided advice to House Democrats, tells me, “In a manner of speaking, perhaps this witness-free drama would be a ‘trial,’ but it wouldn’t be a trial as any ordinary speaker of English would use that word.” He adds, “True, under Nixon v. U.S., the Supreme Court wouldn’t interfere with the Senate’s determination, in its ‘sole power to try’ impeachments, that such an evidence-free proceeding constitutes a ‘trial.’ But reasonable people would surely know better.” He concludes, “The undeniable fact that the Supreme Court would let the Senate get away with such a fake ‘trial’ does not mean that it would actually comply with the genuine sense and basic purpose of the Constitution.”

Fourth, Trump is saying he cannot be prosecuted while in office under the Justice Department’s memo, but neither can he be impeached because he can withhold the most compelling evidence. If ever there were evidence that he has his eye on absolute, unchecked power, this would be it.

Fifth, perhaps, because the Senate Republicans have no facts or interest in the facts, Democrats could invite Republicans simply to stipulate to the evidence as presented in the House Intelligence Committee report. In a court, a judge would instruct the parties to agree on as many facts as possible. If the Republicans have no facts to dispute the Democrats’, they should formally say so in a writing.

Sixth, the Democratic senators running for president would love this; they could be back on the campaign trail in no time. Democratic Senate candidates challenging incumbent Senate Republicans would have the perfect argument that the latter are incapable of carrying out their oaths. Linking the Senate Republicans to Trump’s actions, which 70 percent or so of the public find wrong or illegal, would be a dream for Democrats.

Sixth, this stance might revive a suggestion (not representative of his current position, after the Ukraine plot was uncovered, to pursue impeachment and encourage a real trial on the merits) Tribe and others once made:

'The House, assuming an impeachment inquiry leads to a conclusion of Trump’s guilt, could choose between presenting articles of impeachment even to a Senate pre-committed to burying them and dispensing with impeachment as such while embodying its conclusions of criminality or other grave wrongdoing in a condemnatory “Sense of the House” resolution far stronger than a mere censure. The resolution, expressly and formally proclaiming the president impeachable but declining to play the Senate’s corrupt game, is one that even a president accustomed to treating everything as a victory would be hard-pressed to characterize as a vindication.'

This is an even more compelling suggestion if the Senate actually announces in advance that it won’t conduct a real trial. Why should the House play into the charade by sending over articles of impeachment after a House vote? (McConnell, by the way, for all the reasons stated herein might decide a real trial is necessary, regardless of how badly it makes Trump look.)

In sum, it would be grossly irresponsible and cowardly of the Senate majority to duck its constitutional obligations by refusing to hear facts before a vote, but it follows that nothing would more vividly convey the irresponsibility and cowardice of Republican senators. So I say go for it!"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... mps-guilt/

DMac, the result of the impeachment process isn't the point any more. The point is fidelity to the process, to the oath of office, to the Constitution, to the most important of the fiduciary principles that underlies holding office. The House has to do it, no matter what sort of spineless action is to be taken by the GOP Majority in the Senate.

[DMac]

Believe it or not, I do get that, sc. Unfortunately though, after all is said and done, Trump will claim victory inasmuch as he's still in office and is running for a second term. He'll drive home the witch hunt by the lunatic Ds story and his supporters will eat it up like a dog with a big fat juicy bone. All the rest of what you say (the important stuff) will mean nothing to them or his asz licking lot of R cronie crooks.

[seacoaster]

Believe it or not, I do get that, sc. Unfortunately though, after all is said and done, Trump will claim victory inasmuch as he's still in office and is running for a second term. He'll drive home the witch hunt by the lunatic Ds story and his supporters will eat it up like a dog with a big fat juicy bone. All the rest of what you say (the important stuff) will mean nothing to them or his asz licking lot of R cronie crooks.

Oh, I believe you, and it's hard to disagree with any of that. This is a person who publicly chides a 16 year old. There is no bottom. We will just have to see if the country reaches that trough with him.

[cradleandshoot]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... p-campaign Great article, Mr York states the case here very well. Did the FBI have the authority to initiate an investigation? Yes they did. Did they eff it up to the level of FUBAR... yes they did. When terms like .. confidential human sources(CHS) and under cover employee(UCE) start cropping up you already have some splainin to do. IMO the greatest misdeed done by the FBI... when they knew the FISA information was bogus they should have gone back to the judges that issued the warrants and made them aware of it. I am sure it was just a minor oversight on the part of the FBI... ooopsies.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... p-campaign Great article, Mr York states the case here very well. Did the FBI have the authority to initiate an investigation? Yes they did. Did they eff it up to the level of FUBAR... yes they did. When terms like .. confidential human sources(CHS) and under cover employee(UCE) start cropping up you already have some splainin to do. IMO the greatest misdeed done by the FBI... when they knew the FISA information was bogus they should have gone back to the judges that issued the warrants and made them aware of it. I am sure it was just a minor oversight on the part of the FBI... ooopsies.

Carter Page had it tough. Whose else?

[calourie]

Believe it or not, I do get that, sc. Unfortunately though, after all is said and done, Trump will claim victory inasmuch as he's still in office and is running for a second term. He'll drive home the witch hunt by the lunatic Ds story and his supporters will eat it up like a dog with a big fat juicy bone. All the rest of what you say (the important stuff) will mean nothing to them or his asz licking lot of R cronie crooks.

The way to winning in 2020 is not through winning over Trump's base. It is by ginning up the people of whatever political persuasion who find his behavior abhorrently distasteful, and or criminal, and and or either oblivious to the Constitution and his oath of office, or outright dismissive of the entire concept. These are the people who will lead the charge, and finance the operation to convince enough voters who for whatever reason don't find the Dumpster a menace, but still would just as soon see him voted out of office, to get out to the polling booths and make that happen. That there may not be enough voters out there to make that happen is the democratic crossroads we are approaching this coming November, 2020.

[old salt]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... p-campaign Great article, Mr York states the case here very well. Did the FBI have the authority to initiate an investigation? Yes they did. Did they eff it up to the level of FUBAR... yes they did. When terms like .. confidential human sources(CHS) and under cover employee(UCE) start cropping up you already have some splainin to do. IMO the greatest misdeed done by the FBI... when they knew the FISA information was bogus they should have gone back to the judges that issued the warrants and made them aware of it. I am sure it was just a minor oversight on the part of the FBI... ooopsies.

Carter Page had it tough. Whose else?

Papadop, Flynn, & anyone who had to hire a lawyer, other than Manafort & Gates (who were already under investigation & got what they deserved -- except for extended solitary confinement.)

There was preliminary spying & investigating going on before July 31, 2016 --> the first meeting of Steele with FBI agents in Rome, Halper's first contact with Page, Halper telling journalists about Flynn's supposed 2014 honey trap dinner with Svetlana in London, as soon as Flynn joined the Trump campaign. I'm still waiting to learn which target # was Flynn, what else was done to him, & if the IG says anything about the leak of his call to Kislyak -- were they tapping Flynn or Kislyak ?
https://thefederalist.com/2018/05/21/pu ... tion-stat/

[old salt]

MDLF76:
Interesting cat, that commentator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Taibbi

Taibbi used to be a frequent guest on Morning Joe.
Wonder if we'll see him talking about this article ?
Amusing watching Mika's poodle & friends try to minimize the IG's finding.
No MSM soul searching on MSNBC.
Need to rename the show Gaslight Joe.

[jhu72]

The orange bag of beans had his most prolific day yet wasting bandwidth. For someone who welcomes impeachment, it sure seems to have him unhinged.

[old salt]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... p-campaign Great article, Mr York states the case here very well. Did the FBI have the authority to initiate an investigation? Yes they did. Did they eff it up to the level of FUBAR... yes they did. When terms like .. confidential human sources(CHS) and under cover employee(UCE) start cropping up you already have some splainin to do. IMO the greatest misdeed done by the FBI... when they knew the FISA information was bogus they should have gone back to the judges that issued the warrants and made them aware of it. I am sure it was just a minor oversight on the part of the FBI... ooopsies.

Carter Page had it tough. Whose else?

Papadop, Flynn, & anyone who had to hire a lawyer, other than Manafort & Gates (who were already under investigation & got what they deserved -- except for extended solitary confinement.)

There was preliminary spying & investigating going on before July 31, 2016 --> the first meeting of Steele, in London, with an FBI agent from Rome, Halper's first contact with Page & Clovis, Halper telling journalists about Flynn's supposed 2014 honey trap dinner with Svetlana in London, as soon as Flynn joined the Trump campaign. I'm still waiting to learn which target # was Flynn, what else was done to him, & if the IG says anything about the leak of his call to Kislyak -- were they tapping Flynn or Kislyak ?

https://thefederalist.com/2018/05/21/pu ... tion-stat/

...under the attorney general’s guidelines the FBI may use extensive “information gathering activities” before launching an official “investigation.” Under the guidelines, the FBI may make an “assessment” “to obtain information about” a potential threat to national security.

At the assessment stage, the FBI may “seek information, proactively or in response to investigative leads,” “identify[] and obtain[] information about potential targets of or vulnerabilities to criminal activities . . . or threats to national security,” “seek[] information to identify potential human sources,” and “obtain[] information to inform or facilitate intelligence analysis.”

During the assessment phase, beyond obtaining publicly available information and using online resources, the FBI may “access and examine FBI and other Department of Justice records” and “request information from other federal, state, local, or tribal, or foreign governmental entities or agencies.” The FBI may also “use and recruit human sources,” “accept information voluntarily provided by governmental or private entities,” and “engage in observation or surveillance not requiring a court order.”

In addition to the one known informant, did the FBI use other informants or sources? Did the FBI reach out to foreign governmental entities or agencies? Did the FBI tail the Trump campaign staff, Trump organization employees, or his family? Did the FBI accept information about Trump and his campaign team from other foreign governments or private entities?

..after initiating a formal investigation, the FBI held even broader authority to conduct surveillance of the Trump campaign. Once the FBI launches a full-blown investigation, agents have the authority to conduct undercover operations and issue National Security Letters (NSL). The FBI may issue NSL without court approval.

This search allowed the FBI to review communications between Papadopoulos and Trump’s inner circle.
With these administrative subpoenas, agents may obtain detailed information about targeted individuals from communications providers, financial institutions, consumer credit agencies, and travel agencies. While we do not know how many NSLs the FBI used to target individuals connected with the Trump campaign or Trump organization, or when the FBI issued the NSLs, The New York Times confirmed last week that they were used in Crossfire Hurricane.

Additionally, following the launching of an investigation, the FBI may seek to use pen registers, trap and trace devices, electronic surveillance, and physical searches, pursuant to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. We know the FBI used these investigative methods beginning, at the latest, in October 2016, when the Obama Department of Justice obtained the first of four secret FISA court orders to monitor the communications of former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page. While Page was no longer associated with the Trump campaign when the FISC court issued the order, as former U.S. Attorney Andrew McCarthy has explained, this order also allowed the government to review prior communications between Page and campaign officials.

Further, from the court filings in the special counsel’s case against Papadopoulos, we know the FBI obtained a court order to search Papadopoulos’ email and Facebook accounts. This search allowed the FBI to review communications between Papadopoulos and Trump’s inner circle. We do not know when this court-ordered search took place or the factual predicate for the search.

We also know that following Trump’s surprise victory, but before his inauguration, the Obama administration listened in on a telephone call between Michael Flynn, Trump’s newly named national security advisor, and the Russian ambassador. What we don’t know is whether the government had tapped Flynn’s phone or intercepted the calls as part of normal surveillance of Russian officials. We also don’t know whether other members of the Trump campaign, transitional team, or current members of the administration were also targeted by the CIA, FBI, and National Security Agency. But it’s about time we do.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... p-campaign Great article, Mr York states the case here very well. Did the FBI have the authority to initiate an investigation? Yes they did. Did they eff it up to the level of FUBAR... yes they did. When terms like .. confidential human sources(CHS) and under cover employee(UCE) start cropping up you already have some splainin to do. IMO the greatest misdeed done by the FBI... when they knew the FISA information was bogus they should have gone back to the judges that issued the warrants and made them aware of it. I am sure it was just a minor oversight on the part of the FBI... ooopsies.

Carter Page had it tough. Whose else?

Papadop, Flynn, & anyone who had to hire a lawyer, other than Manafort & Gates (who were already under investigation & got what they deserved -- except for extended solitary confinement.)

There was preliminary spying & investigating going on before July 31, 2016 --> the first meeting of Steele, in London, with an FBI agent from Rome, Halper's first contact with Page & Clovis, Halper telling journalists about Flynn's supposed 2014 honey trap dinner with Svetlana in London, as soon as Flynn joined the Trump campaign. I'm still waiting to learn which target # was Flynn, what else was done to him, & if the IG says anything about the leak of his call to Kislyak -- were they tapping Flynn or Kislyak ?

https://thefederalist.com/2018/05/21/pu ... tion-stat/

after initiating a formal investigation, the FBI held even broader authority to conduct surveillance of the Trump campaign. Once the FBI launches a full-blown investigation, agents have the authority to conduct undercover operations and issue National Security Letters (NSL). The FBI may issue NSL without court approval.

This search allowed the FBI to review communications between Papadopoulos and Trump’s inner circle.
With these administrative subpoenas, agents may obtain detailed information about targeted individuals from communications providers, financial institutions, consumer credit agencies, and travel agencies. While we do not know how many NSLs the FBI used to target individuals connected with the Trump campaign or Trump organization, or when the FBI issued the NSLs, The New York Times confirmed last week that they were used in Crossfire Hurricane.

Additionally, following the launching of an investigation, the FBI may seek to use pen registers, trap and trace devices, electronic surveillance, and physical searches, pursuant to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. We know the FBI used these investigative methods beginning, at the latest, in October 2016, when the Obama Department of Justice obtained the first of four secret FISA court orders to monitor the communications of former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page. While Page was no longer associated with the Trump campaign when the FISC court issued the order, as former U.S. Attorney Andrew McCarthy has explained, this order also allowed the government to review prior communications between Page and campaign officials.

Further, from the court filings in the special counsel’s case against Papadopoulos, we know the FBI obtained a court order to search Papadopoulos’ email and Facebook accounts. This search allowed the FBI to review communications between Papadopoulos and Trump’s inner circle. We do not know when this court-ordered search took place or the factual predicate for the search.

We also know that following Trump’s surprise victory, but before his inauguration, the Obama administration listened in on a telephone call between Michael Flynn, Trump’s newly named national security advisor, and the Russian ambassador. What we don’t know is whether the government had tapped Flynn’s phone or intercepted the calls as part of normal surveillance of Russian officials. We also don’t know whether other members of the Trump campaign, transitional team, or current members of the administration were also targeted by the CIA, FBI, and National Security Agency. But it’s about time we do.

Ain’t got no sympathy for convicted felons.

[youthathletics]

An entire 2+ year investigation built on known lies, by hiring a knucklehead to expel bs Russian lies, only to investigate a US citizen, who was an opponent in a US election, AND the FBI and their lawyer intentionally deceived and modified paperwork to fraud the FISA court.

And the the scary part....the top echelon in the FBI did the very thing they are accusing Trump of. Using Russia propaganda to facilitate and deceive the American people to influence people and an election...past and present. And who was the lynchpin?.....the Clinton Crime Syndicate, covered under the bs story of “opposition research”.

[Typical Lax Dad]

An entire 2+ year investigation built on known lies, by hiring a knucklehead to expel bs Russian lies, only to investigate a US citizen, who was an opponent in a US election, AND the FBI and their lawyer intentionally deceived and modified paperwork to fraud the FISA court.

And the the scary part....the top echelon in the FBI did the very thing they are accusing Trump of. Using Russia propaganda to facilitate and deceive the American people to influence people and an election...past and present. And who was the lynchpin?.....the Clinton Crime Syndicate, covered under the bs story of “opposition research”.

Did you read the Mueller Report? We were supposed to do nothing? Wake up.

[DMac]

Believe it or not, I do get that, sc. Unfortunately though, after all is said and done, Trump will claim victory inasmuch as he's still in office and is running for a second term. He'll drive home the witch hunt by the lunatic Ds story and his supporters will eat it up like a dog with a big fat juicy bone. All the rest of what you say (the important stuff) will mean nothing to them or his asz licking lot of R cronie crooks.

The way to winning in 2020 is not through winning over Trump's base. It is by ginning up the people of whatever political persuasion who find his behavior abhorrently distasteful, and or criminal, and and or either oblivious to the Constitution and his oath of office, or outright dismissive of the entire concept. These are the people who will lead the charge, and finance the operation to convince enough voters who for whatever reason don't find the Dumpster a menace, but still would just as soon see him voted out of office, to get out to the polling booths and make that happen. That there may not be enough voters out there to make that happen is the democratic crossroads we are approaching this coming November, 2020.

Yup, I get that. Trump's base is the immoveable object/impenetrable fortress. If their fuhrer ordered the building of Auschwitz, USA Annex (paid for, of course, by the Germans) they'd be all in. Should be able to come out with some sort of nice new hat design and with a clever slogan on it for that too, MAGA hats are old news. As Donald says, he's already made America great again. Did better than Abe and all the rest of the Prezes. The greatly great one is the greatest of all, so says he and his base.
I wouldn't disagree with those who have said turnout for this one is going to be huge and voters are driven more by dislike than like. There's an awful lot of dislike out there, the team that gathers up and motivates the most of them to vote wins.
I don't believe the Constitution means much to The Donald, would be completely out of character for him to accept that the founding fathers were smarter and nobler than He. He uses the parts He likes and undoubtedly dismisses the parts He doesn't like.

[youthathletics]

Yes I did....I also read and listened to Horowitz not clear Jim Conme.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Yes I did....I also read and listened to Horowitz not clear Jim Conme.

You heard him say the investigation was unjustified? Wake up. You mean the Comey that Handed the election to Trump?

[a fan]

And the the scary part....the top echelon in the FBI did the very thing they are accusing Trump of. Using Russia propaganda to facilitate and deceive the American people to influence people and an election...past and present.

You and old salt have spent the last several months to tell us this is 100% appropriate.

Why are you both still complaining? You should both be thrilled that the government was and is doing their job.