Trump's Russian Collusion

[old salt]

I'm not aware of ever having said here that I am an ACLU supporter. Are you listening in to my phone calls?

.. ...we discussed this before, in our former lives. Deja Vu, all over again.

[DMac]

Clinton was essentially a conscientious objector who did everything he could, short of buying a phony bone spurs note from a doctor, to get out of serving while trying not to damage his political career in the process.
Any way you look at it there is no comparison to what Clinton and Biden did (Biden had asthma, you want to be in a foxhole under fire with a partner who is having an asthma attack? Hint, that's why he was rejected.) and what Trump did. One is the most gutless way out, the other two are legit (education deferment was the route (understandably) many took) but to say everyone was cool with Slick's route is just not so.

https://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/ca ... raft.shtml

You mean he had "asthma."



https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... ding-draft

Biden also received a 1-Y classification in 1968, meaning that he was unqualified for duty except in a national emergency. He was " disqualified from service because of asthma as a teenager," according to Barack Obama's 2008 campaign.

Despite his childhood asthma, Biden recounted an active youth in his 2007 book Promises to Keep. He worked as a lifeguard, mentioned playing basketball, and was on his high school football team. "I'd never in my life had any real physical troubles beyond childhood asthma or a separated shoulder," Biden wrote.

A little tid-bit for you, kram. Of my eight years in the military, four of them were spent as a recruiter, I have a fairly good idea of what I'm talking about. Had you come into my office wanting to enlist but had a history of astma, I could not have put you in....you would be rejected. See my foxhole explanation, you should be able to understand that. You can try twisting this however you want but you'll get nowhere with those of us who actually know a little something about it, just like we know a little something about the most chickenschidt way to get out of the draft. So far you've been proven wrong on all of your claims but keep on trying if it makes you feel good.

[Kismet]

I'm not aware of ever having said here that I am an ACLU supporter. Are you listening in to my phone calls?

.. ...we discussed this before, in our former lives. Deja Vu, all over again.

Touche' Nice retort, sailor.

And I agree with you that Bush 43 got a raw deal from CBS/Dan Rather on the backstory. Those responsible for that shoddy reporting rightfully got canned. That said, you cannot deny that despite the flying risk, he did jump more than a few other ANG applicants which give an appearance of some influence on his behalf that many others would not have received.

[Typical Lax Dad]

“This will be the first draft Donald Trump can’t dodge,” Jimmy Kimmel said, referring to Thursday’s announcement that the House of Representatives would begin drafting impeachment articles against the president.

Left crucifies Trump for bone spurs. And seems to be cool with Clinton pursuing his education during Vietnam and Biden's sudden case of 1Y "Asthma."

There is a big difference. Clinton and Biden didn't come from money. There was more than a little of the monied classes dodging the draft. At the time things like educational deferments were real things. There were real medical related rejections and deferments. Don't know anything about Biden's case.

Money or not. Clinton enrolled in, but did not join the ROTC to avoid the draft.

I would have thought Clinton needed no ROTC to avoid the draft, he was a student with a student deferment was he not?

Here is the very long ordeal: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/clinton-draft-pardon/

Clinton lied (in a letter) to a ROTC unit commander to get another deferment, after he'd used up his undergrad deferments, then reneged on serving.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

Regarding Air National Guard, some entire ANG units deployed to Vietnam.
ANG pilots went through the same flight training pipeline as active duty USAF pilots.
I was pall bearer for a HS teammate who spun in a T-37 during USAF undergrad flight training.
Bush survived USAF flight training & several hundred ANG missions in the F-102, a very unforgiving, single engine, all weather, supersonic fighter.
US combat ops in Viernam ended in 1973, with the Paris Peace Treaty.

Thanks. Didn’t know that. When you get a chance, document Trump’s lies when you get a chance. Thanks buddy.

[kramerica.inc]

I understand that the Army goes off previous diagnoses - right or wrong.

My point is that it's easily misdiagnosed. And one of the most commonly misdiagnosed conditions. Even today. Moreso when Biden was a kid. Many times what seems to be asthma turns out to be another condition- such as bronchitis, recurrent pneumonia or bronchiolitis. These and a number of other asthma-like conditions go away as children get older.

And in Biden's case and admission he never had ANY issues past early childhood. Even while playing competitive sports and lifeguarding.

Highly rare.

As someone who has multiple family members with real asthma, I know. So good for him for beating those very tall odds of never having a recurrence of asthma since childhood.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I understand that the Army goes off previous diagnoses - right or wrong.

My point is that it's easily misdiagnosed. And one of the most commonly misdiagnosed conditions. Even today. Moreso when Biden was a kid. Many times what seems to be asthma turns out to be another condition- such as bronchitis, recurrent pneumonia or bronchiolitis. These and a number of other asthma-like conditions go away as children get older.

And in Biden's case and admission he never had ANY issues past early childhood. Even while playing competitive sports and lifeguarding.

Highly rare.

As someone who has multiple family members with real asthma, I know. So good for him for beating those very tall odds of never having a recurrence of asthma since childhood.

My son had asthma. Fine most of the time but it flares up from time to time. Brother and niece have it too. You would never know it.

[old salt]

I'm not aware of ever having said here that I am an ACLU supporter. Are you listening in to my phone calls?

.. ...we discussed this before, in our former lives. Deja Vu, all over again.

Touche' Nice retort, sailor.

And I agree with you that Bush 43 got a raw deal from CBS/Dan Rather on the backstory. Those responsible for that shoddy reporting rightfully got canned. That said, you cannot deny that despite the flying risk, he did jump more than a few other ANG applicants which give an appearance of some influence on his behalf that many others would not have received.

Sure. W did the same thing many politicians' sons & professional athletes did, though most pro athletes did a 2 year non flying hitch.
There were exceptions -- recall StL FB Cardinals All Pro QB Charlie Johnson was recalled to active duty as an Army officer, opening the way for rookie Jim Hart. Johnson still had a few good years with the Big Red, Oilers & Broncos, after his service. Tim McCarver missed a season in the high minors, as did many of his baseball peers.

Nonetheless, ANG flight duty was not without significant risk, especially in the century series fighters, which spent the entire Cold War standing strip alert for NORAD interceptor missions. FTR -- the ANG during the Vietnam years :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_National_Guard

The Vietnam War provided the next significant test for the Air National Guard. However, for largely domestic political reasons, President Lyndon B. Johnson chose not to mobilize most of the nation's reserve forces before 1968. His reasons for not mobilizing reserve forces were many. Primarily, he did not believe that the war in Vietnam justified the dramatic act of mobilizing Reserve and National Guard forces. He accepted the need to fight the war, but he wanted to prosecute it as quietly as possible, not attracting too much attention at home and risk jeopardizing his domestic programs. He also wanted to avoid drawing the Communist Chinese into the war or the attention of the Soviet Union, the latter which might view the mobilization of Reserve and National Guard units as "escalatory" within a larger Cold War context. Moreover, recalling Reservists' complaints of inactivity following the Berlin mobilization of 1961, he was also reluctant to recall Reservists and National Guardsmen without the assurance that their employment would significantly affect the course of the war, an assurance no official in his administration could provide. As a result, even though still populated by many World War II and Korean War combat veterans, the Reserves and the National Guard acquired ill-deserved reputations during this period as havens for relatively affluent, young white men with no prior active duty military service to serve as officers or enlisted personnel as a means to avoid the draft into the active duty U.S. Army in an enlisted status.[18]

Air National Guard airlift units, however, began flying regularly to Japan and South Vietnam beginning in 1966 to support Military Airlift Command (MAC) operations. These flights continued on a regular basis until 1972. In addition, between August 1965 and September 1969, Air National Guard domestic and offshore aeromedical evacuation flights freed active duty Air Force resources for such missions in Southeast Asia (SEA).[18]

However, after the 1968 Tet Offensive in which the Communist North Vietnamese and Vietcong troops attacked positions throughout the Republic of Vietnam, the Pentagon dispatched four Air National Guard fighter squadrons to that nation. In addition, the Pueblo Crisis in Korea also saw mobilized Air Force Reservists, Air National Guardsmen and Naval Reservists in flying units. That crisis prompted the third partial Air National Guard mobilization since the end of World War II, and eventually two ANG fighter squadrons were dispatched to South Korea. However, the Pueblo crisis ended without a resort to combat.[18]

In July 1970, two EC-121 "Super Constellations" from the Pennsylvania ANG's 193d Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron departed their home station for Korat RTAFB, Thailand. During the next six months, approximately 60 Air National Guardsmen were rotated through the latter installation on 30- to 60-day tours in Operation "Commando Buzz," their aircraft serving as flying radar stations and airborne control platforms for U.S. air operations in Southeast Asia (SEA) until January 1971.[18]

The 355th Tactical Fighter Squadron (355th TFS) in 1967 was a Regular Air Force squadron assigned to the 354th Tactical Fighter Wing at Myrtle Beach AFB, South Carolina. From January 1968 until June 1969, the 355th TFS changed from a Regular Air Force unit composed almost entirely of recent SEA returnees to a composite squadron consisting of approximately 50% of whose personnel assets were composed of activated ANG members from the 119th TFS of the New Jersey ANG) and the 121st TFS of the District of Columbia ANG). The 355th deployed on temporary duty (TDY) to Phù Cát Air Base on 14 May 1968 with 13 of its 30 pilots being ANG members. The transfer became permanent on 26 June 1968, at which time all TDY members were offered the opportunity to volunteer for a full year's tour. All 13 ANG pilots volunteered, one of whom was killed in action a month later. By Christmas 1968, 87% of the squadron's support personnel were ANG members. Five of the ANG pilots also volunteered as Misty Forward Air Controllers (FACs) flying the F-100 Super Sabre. In all, ANG pilots were awarded 23 Silver Stars, 47 Distinguished Flying Crosses, and 46 Bronze Stars with Combat V for valor while stationed at Phu Cat.

[LandM]

DMac,
Funny effing story - my first boss was an E-8 and was caught outside the wire during TET. Lives to see the day and remained a small arms instructor after. Funniest flipping stories. Anyway he goes from enlisted to O. He was the Capt and retired as a LtCononel when he could have lived the luxury as an E-9. He is why I laughed my arse off in my time. He was a true mentor and the toughest SOB I ever met. Thankfully he mentored me and now years, if alive......he would be saying sorry about every 2 minutes.....that is a shame IMHO. Being a wussy does not win a battle.

Forever,
I got raised being a Catholic. It does not bother me - I just think it is ignorant when 95% of my religion are good hard-working people and people judge and criticize with no knowledge but what the press writes - sad actually but I will be at the VA tomorrow doing my part.
Best to you and your family.

[foreverlax]

DMac,
Funny effing story - my first boss was an E-8 and was caught outside the wire during TET. Lives to see the day and remained a small arms instructor after. Funniest flipping stories. Anyway he goes from enlisted to O. He was the Capt and retired as a LtCononel when he could have lived the luxury as an E-9. He is why I laughed my arse off in my time. He was a true mentor and the toughest SOB I ever met. Thankfully he mentored me and now years, if alive......he would be saying sorry about every 2 minutes.....that is a shame IMHO. Being a wussy does not win a battle.

Forever,
I got raised being a Catholic. It does not bother me - I just think it is ignorant when 95% of my religion are good hard-working people and people judge and criticize with no knowledge but what the press writes - sad actually but I will be at the VA tomorrow doing my part.
Best to you and your family.

I get that, but you didn't answer my question.....

[DMac]

For sure you're not suggesting that Wubya had anything other than a pretty cushy little spot, all things considered, though, right salty?
He certainly never got anywhere near Southeast Asia, and I'd bet he never left CONUS. Not really knocking the guy, those were difficult times for a draft aged young man and there were many different routes to take depending on whether you wanted to go or not.

[old salt]

For sure you're not suggesting that Wubya had anything other than a pretty cushy little spot, all things considered, though, right salty?
He certainly never got anywhere near Southeast Asia, and I'd bet he never left CONUS. Not really knocking the guy, those were difficult times for a draft aged young man and there were many different routes to take depending on whether you wanted to go or not.

W was fortunate to get a highly sought after ANG flying billet. I don't think completing USAF flight training, followed by a year of flying strip alert interceptor missions offshore in F-102's, is cushy duty, ...unlike the nonflying ANG duty Dan Quayle had with the IN ANG or USMC Reserve duty Richard Blumenthal had, in their home states.

Cushy duty would be boot camp, followed by 6 mos active duty in a non hazardous duty billet in your hometown, followed by reserve drills.

[dislaxxic]

House Impeachment Articles/Report May Contain Some Surprises

Apologies if this has already been posted...it's from TPM...

The most substantial redactions in the Mueller Report were tied facts relevant to the prosecution of Roger Stone. Stone’s case is now over: guilty on all charges. What we learned at trial was Mueller’s investigators had quite a bit more information about Stone’s real-time coordination and communication with then-candidate Trump about Wikileaks then the redacted version of the Mueller report suggested. More or less all of those communications President Trump either denied under oath or claimed to have imperfect memory on.

Is there more than came out at trial?

The evidence presented at Stone’s trial was, of course, specifically chosen to prove Stone’s false statements rather than Trump’s. It stands to reason that there’s more information there about Trump’s false statements to investigators. And my understanding is that there is quite a bit more under the redactions: information that goes directly to Trump’s knowledge of Wikileaks actions at the time and false statements to investigators after the fact.

Indeed, to not too much fanfare the House has already told a federal judge it is investigating just this question as part of the impeachment probe. They’re trying to get access to still more information, specifically the evidence collected by the grand jury. And the DOJ may be able to delay that production out past when impeachment happens. But remember, the Judiciary Committee struck a deal back in June to get a look under the relevant redactions. So assume they’ve already seen the key stuff.

That doesn’t have anything to do with the specifics of the Ukraine conspiracy. But it does go directly to President Trump’s pattern of conduct, both in soliciting foreign governments to intervene in US presidential elections and obstruction of lawful investigations.

So keep an eye out.

..

[DMac]

For sure you're not suggesting that Wubya had anything other than a pretty cushy little spot, all things considered, though, right salty?
He certainly never got anywhere near Southeast Asia, and I'd bet he never left CONUS. Not really knocking the guy, those were difficult times for a draft aged young man and there were many different routes to take depending on whether you wanted to go or not.

W was fortunate to get a highly sought after ANG flying billet. I don't think completing USAF flight training, followed by a year of flying strip alert interceptor missions offshore in F-102's, is cushy duty, ...unlike the nonflying ANG duty Dan Quayle had with the IN ANG or USMC Reserve duty Richard Blumenthal had, in their home states.

Cushy duty would be boot camp, followed by 6 mos active duty in a non hazardous duty billet in your hometown, followed by reserve drills.

Fair enough.
All the NG folks I was ever around did pretty much the cushy duty you describe.
I don't think the NG recruiter would get past the front gate at UNSA, military
spit polish and sharp look wasn't of a much concern to him. I thought he was a
pretty good representative of the NG. Not sayin' they're bad people.

[Trinity]

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... elections/

Trump’s sordid election history.

[CU88]

EDITORIAL
Impeach the president

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2019/12/06/ ... peachment/

[CU88]

EDITORIAL
Editorial: Trump is exhausting the nation's and his party's patience. Time to dump him.

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/editor ... 5d7f3.html

[cradleandshoot]

For sure you're not suggesting that Wubya had anything other than a pretty cushy little spot, all things considered, though, right salty?
He certainly never got anywhere near Southeast Asia, and I'd bet he never left CONUS. Not really knocking the guy, those were difficult times for a draft aged young man and there were many different routes to take depending on whether you wanted to go or not.

W was fortunate to get a highly sought after ANG flying billet. I don't think completing USAF flight training, followed by a year of flying strip alert interceptor missions offshore in F-102's, is cushy duty, ...unlike the nonflying ANG duty Dan Quayle had with the IN ANG or USMC Reserve duty Richard Blumenthal had, in their home states.

Cushy duty would be boot camp, followed by 6 mos active duty in a non hazardous duty billet in your hometown, followed by reserve drills.

Fair enough.
All the NG folks I was ever around did pretty much the cushy duty you describe.
I don't think the NG recruiter would get past the front gate at UNSA, military
spit polish and sharp look wasn't of a much concern to him. I thought he was a
pretty good representative of the NG. Not sayin' they're bad people.

When I was in Basic Training... where the real army folks went... not Boot Camp. The NG folks and the AR folks always had to do extra pushups and chin ups to get into the mess hall. The real soldiers... us RA people enjoyed the show as our POTUS would say... very greatly. After the end of Basic and AIT they all went home. I moved on to the 3 week course at Ft Benning. Ground week, Tower week and Jump week. I will always remember that refrain from Tower week... HIT THE HOLE POLE MAN HIT THE HOLE. Any swinging Dick or Jane that ever had their jump wings pinned on them will always remember that little phrase. I apologize for being way off topic. Time to get back to giving Trump the Joan of Arc treatment. I wonder if the environmental folks will make an exception for the massive pyre of flames if it means the end of Trump.

https://battledrill.blogspot.com/2014/0 ... -hole.html Damn it... never thought it would be on the interweb...

[CU88]

Have to give USA Today credit for calling it right back in 2916:

USA TODAY's Editorial Board: Trump is 'unfit for the presidency'
The Editorial BoardUSA TODAY


https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... lBiJMMkoZ4

From the day he declared his candidacy 15 months ago through this week’s first presidential debate, Trump has demonstrated repeatedly that he lacks the temperament, knowledge, steadiness and honesty that America needs from its presidents.

Whether through indifference or ignorance, Trump has betrayed fundamental commitments made by all presidents since the end of World War II. These commitments include unwavering support for NATO allies, steadfast opposition to Russian aggression, and the absolute certainty that the United States will make good on its debts. He has expressed troubling admiration for authoritarian leaders and scant regard for constitutional protections.

[cradleandshoot]

Have to give USA Today credit for calling it right back in 2916:

USA TODAY's Editorial Board: Trump is 'unfit for the presidency'
The Editorial BoardUSA TODAY


https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... lBiJMMkoZ4

From the day he declared his candidacy 15 months ago through this week’s first presidential debate, Trump has demonstrated repeatedly that he lacks the temperament, knowledge, steadiness and honesty that America needs from its presidents.

Whether through indifference or ignorance, Trump has betrayed fundamental commitments made by all presidents since the end of World War II. These commitments include unwavering support for NATO allies, steadfast opposition to Russian aggression, and the absolute certainty that the United States will make good on its debts. He has expressed troubling admiration for authoritarian leaders and scant regard for constitutional protections.

2916... ??? what are we back to the future with yet another Trump? For the record... i am loving that cortisone to no end right now.

[jhu72]

“This will be the first draft Donald Trump can’t dodge,” Jimmy Kimmel said, referring to Thursday’s announcement that the House of Representatives would begin drafting impeachment articles against the president.

Left crucifies Trump for bone spurs. And seems to be cool with Clinton pursuing his education during Vietnam and Biden's sudden case of 1Y "Asthma."

There is a big difference. Clinton and Biden didn't come from money. There was more than a little of the monied classes dodging the draft. At the time things like educational deferments were real things. There were real medical related rejections and deferments. Don't know anything about Biden's case.

Money or not. Clinton enrolled in, but did not join the ROTC to avoid the draft.

I would have thought Clinton needed no ROTC to avoid the draft, he was a student with a student deferment was he not?

Here is the very long ordeal: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/clinton-draft-pardon/

Thanks. So the situation is clear as mud, about as clear as what happened with Bush. No question he was trying to avoid the draft (a lot of that was going around) while the system was in the process of changing.

Actually the waters are crystal clear as to what Wuba's military service was.

When Bush graduated in 1968, he faced the prospect of being sent to Vietnam, but avoided combat by joining the National Guard. At the time, the Guard had 100,000 applicants on its waiting list.19.5 But Bush was sworn in as a member of the 147th unit of the Texas Air National Guard the same day he applied. Ben Barnes, who was then the Speaker of the Texas House of Representatives, recently said under oath that he secured a spot in the guard for the young Bush at the urging of Sid Adger, a Houston businessman and close friend of Bush’s father, then a U.S. Representative from Houston. Bush wasn’t the only son of a prominent Texan in his unit. Others included the sons of Senators Lloyd Bentsen (a Democrat) and John Tower (a Republican), and at least seven members of the Dallas Cowboys football team.

https://publicintegrity.org/federal-pol ... h-profile/

Unlike today the National Guard, and particularly the Air National Guard, was another route many took in order to stay out of harms way. These were pretty much safe spaces and units that weren't going anywhere and if they had, the Air National Guard boys would have been on the bottom of the list to go. Enlisting was enough to get you a nice leather flight jacket, but there was virtually no risk involved in being in these outfits. This is the route Wuba's dad laid out for him....the safe rich boys outfit.

JFTR, I like Wubya these days, think he's a pretty cool guy with a good heart.

Sorry, sc, didn't see your request til after I posted.

Well aware of the ANG dodge. A couple buddies from high school managed to take that route. They didn't come from big money, more like little money but big fish in a small pond kind of connections. They got their spots and stayed state side and according to them it was not a particularly demanding posting. It was a bit of a bummer for them however, they thought they would fly fighters, instead their unit was put on loan to the Maryland Army National Guard and they did see some "action" during riots and protests in the late 60's / early 70's. Still a better gig than slogging thru SEA jungles.