LaxPower Back-Up Stick

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:53 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 4:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:55 am
Re Nuland and Soros...are they the only prominent people who have supported Ukraine and other former Soviet holdings turning away from authoritarianism and Russian domination towards democracy and the West?

Nope. But they're the ones the hard right wing chooses to emphasize.

The two Jewish people.

They're the ones the hard right wing "Nationalists" choose to emphasize.
Christian Nationalists propaganda.

Other than Biden (w/Blinken) & John McCain, they are the 2 most influential figures in the promotion of regime change & dismemberment of Russia, dating back to Maidan in 2014.

VP Biden (w/ his staff advisor Blinken) was the Obama admin point man on Ukraine & delivered the ultimatum that prompted the elected Ukrainian President to step down in 2014. Senators John McCain & Chris Murphy were on the stage in Maidan, in front of Nuland.

Not all Neo-Con hawks are Jewish. That's just a diversionary smear used to deflect any critique of the policies they advocate.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/neoconser ... nservative

There are plenty of gentiles in positions of power propelling us down this road to confrontation with Russia, with the ultimate goal of weakening Russia via regime change & the further dismemberment of the historic Russian nation. Nuland & Soros are 2 of the most impactful over the long run.

Yup, there are indeed plenty of gentiles who have supported democratic movements throwing off the yoke of Soviet and Russian domination.

But right wing Christian Nationalists always mention Soros and Nuland, usually by themselves, and it ain't by accident.

I'm not saying you are anti-Semitic, but pretending to be oblivious (and I have to assume it's pretending at this point in our back and forth) is willfully repeating the anti-Semitic propaganda that is rampant in right wing media and right wing pseudo intellectual circles.

If you're opposed to democracy movements in those areas because of geo-political risks, we can have that conversation, but resorting to trolling anti-Semitic tropes is unhelpful. And I have to assume you know that by now, right?

I'm not oblivious to what you're saying. Nor am I going to let it determine what I say.
Nuland & Soros are the 2 foremost influential, consistent examples, over time.
I posted examples of what they are doing to make them so.
That should make you look beyond your willful blindness to what you're doing by repeating mindless tropes.
I expect that sort of thing from TLD & ffg. I thought that you would be intellectually honest enough to rise above that.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 6:46 pm I'm not oblivious to what you're saying. Nor am I going to let it determine what I say.
Nuland & Soros are the 2 foremost influential, consistent examples, over time.
I posted examples of what they are doing to make them so.
That should make you look beyond your willful blindness to what you're doing by repeating mindless tropes.
I expect that sort of thing from TLD & ffg. I thought that you would be intellectually honest enough to rise above that.

You could also simply move to Mitch McConnell.... he has more power than Nuland and Soros combined.

And he's advocating the same thing in public. Frequently,

He's also out front on the coming Marshall plan for Ukraine.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 6:46 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:53 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 4:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:55 am
Re Nuland and Soros...are they the only prominent people who have supported Ukraine and other former Soviet holdings turning away from authoritarianism and Russian domination towards democracy and the West?

Nope. But they're the ones the hard right wing chooses to emphasize.

The two Jewish people.

They're the ones the hard right wing "Nationalists" choose to emphasize.
Christian Nationalists propaganda.

Other than Biden (w/Blinken) & John McCain, they are the 2 most influential figures in the promotion of regime change & dismemberment of Russia, dating back to Maidan in 2014.

VP Biden (w/ his staff advisor Blinken) was the Obama admin point man on Ukraine & delivered the ultimatum that prompted the elected Ukrainian President to step down in 2014. Senators John McCain & Chris Murphy were on the stage in Maidan, in front of Nuland.

Not all Neo-Con hawks are Jewish. That's just a diversionary smear used to deflect any critique of the policies they advocate.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/neoconser ... nservative

There are plenty of gentiles in positions of power propelling us down this road to confrontation with Russia, with the ultimate goal of weakening Russia via regime change & the further dismemberment of the historic Russian nation. Nuland & Soros are 2 of the most impactful over the long run.

Yup, there are indeed plenty of gentiles who have supported democratic movements throwing off the yoke of Soviet and Russian domination.

But right wing Christian Nationalists always mention Soros and Nuland, usually by themselves, and it ain't by accident.

I'm not saying you are anti-Semitic, but pretending to be oblivious (and I have to assume it's pretending at this point in our back and forth) is willfully repeating the anti-Semitic propaganda that is rampant in right wing media and right wing pseudo intellectual circles.

If you're opposed to democracy movements in those areas because of geo-political risks, we can have that conversation, but resorting to trolling anti-Semitic tropes is unhelpful. And I have to assume you know that by now, right?

I'm not oblivious to what you're saying. Nor am I going to let it determine what I say.
Nuland & Soros are the 2 foremost influential, consistent examples, over time.
I posted examples of what they are doing to make them so.
That should make you look beyond your willful blindness to what you're doing by repeating mindless tropes.
I expect that sort of thing from TLD & ffg. I thought that you would be intellectually honest enough to rise above that.

The Merchant of Venice!!

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:17 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:55 am

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:07 am The same arrangement we have with the tac nucs bombs we provide our NATO allies.
We provide the codes for them to use them.

Which do we provide them to?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep28847.10

It's a major factor in which model fighter aircraft participating NATO members choose to procure.
Not all options are certified by the US for delivery of the nuclear weapon provided.

Here's a lengthy WP explainer on the B-61 bomb. I''ll post the text, if anyone is interested.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... 61-russia/

Looks to me like the US maintains absolute and full control of these weapons...some "infrastructure" is provided by some of the NATO allies, but that's not the same as providing them with the weapons for their discretionary usage.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 6:46 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:53 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 4:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:55 am
Re Nuland and Soros...are they the only prominent people who have supported Ukraine and other former Soviet holdings turning away from authoritarianism and Russian domination towards democracy and the West?

Nope. But they're the ones the hard right wing chooses to emphasize.

The two Jewish people.

They're the ones the hard right wing "Nationalists" choose to emphasize.
Christian Nationalists propaganda.

Other than Biden (w/Blinken) & John McCain, they are the 2 most influential figures in the promotion of regime change & dismemberment of Russia, dating back to Maidan in 2014.

VP Biden (w/ his staff advisor Blinken) was the Obama admin point man on Ukraine & delivered the ultimatum that prompted the elected Ukrainian President to step down in 2014. Senators John McCain & Chris Murphy were on the stage in Maidan, in front of Nuland.

Not all Neo-Con hawks are Jewish. That's just a diversionary smear used to deflect any critique of the policies they advocate.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/neoconser ... nservative

There are plenty of gentiles in positions of power propelling us down this road to confrontation with Russia, with the ultimate goal of weakening Russia via regime change & the further dismemberment of the historic Russian nation. Nuland & Soros are 2 of the most impactful over the long run.

Yup, there are indeed plenty of gentiles who have supported democratic movements throwing off the yoke of Soviet and Russian domination.

But right wing Christian Nationalists always mention Soros and Nuland, usually by themselves, and it ain't by accident.

I'm not saying you are anti-Semitic, but pretending to be oblivious (and I have to assume it's pretending at this point in our back and forth) is willfully repeating the anti-Semitic propaganda that is rampant in right wing media and right wing pseudo intellectual circles.

If you're opposed to democracy movements in those areas because of geo-political risks, we can have that conversation, but resorting to trolling anti-Semitic tropes is unhelpful. And I have to assume you know that by now, right?

I'm not oblivious to what you're saying. Nor am I going to let it determine what I say.
Nuland & Soros are the 2 foremost influential, consistent examples, over time.
I posted examples of what they are doing to make them so.
That should make you look beyond your willful blindness to what you're doing by repeating mindless tropes.
I expect that sort of thing from TLD & ffg. I thought that you would be intellectually honest enough to rise above that.

I don't expect my feedback to "determine what you say".
You've made clear that you're unwilling to avoid the obvious anti-semitism.

Why that is, is not clear...but you're definitely making a choice.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:18 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 6:46 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:53 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 4:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:55 am
Re Nuland and Soros...are they the only prominent people who have supported Ukraine and other former Soviet holdings turning away from authoritarianism and Russian domination towards democracy and the West?

Nope. But they're the ones the hard right wing chooses to emphasize.

The two Jewish people.

They're the ones the hard right wing "Nationalists" choose to emphasize.
Christian Nationalists propaganda.

Other than Biden (w/Blinken) & John McCain, they are the 2 most influential figures in the promotion of regime change & dismemberment of Russia, dating back to Maidan in 2014.

VP Biden (w/ his staff advisor Blinken) was the Obama admin point man on Ukraine & delivered the ultimatum that prompted the elected Ukrainian President to step down in 2014. Senators John McCain & Chris Murphy were on the stage in Maidan, in front of Nuland.

Not all Neo-Con hawks are Jewish. That's just a diversionary smear used to deflect any critique of the policies they advocate.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/neoconser ... nservative

There are plenty of gentiles in positions of power propelling us down this road to confrontation with Russia, with the ultimate goal of weakening Russia via regime change & the further dismemberment of the historic Russian nation. Nuland & Soros are 2 of the most impactful over the long run.

Yup, there are indeed plenty of gentiles who have supported democratic movements throwing off the yoke of Soviet and Russian domination.

But right wing Christian Nationalists always mention Soros and Nuland, usually by themselves, and it ain't by accident.

I'm not saying you are anti-Semitic, but pretending to be oblivious (and I have to assume it's pretending at this point in our back and forth) is willfully repeating the anti-Semitic propaganda that is rampant in right wing media and right wing pseudo intellectual circles.

If you're opposed to democracy movements in those areas because of geo-political risks, we can have that conversation, but resorting to trolling anti-Semitic tropes is unhelpful. And I have to assume you know that by now, right?

I'm not oblivious to what you're saying. Nor am I going to let it determine what I say.
Nuland & Soros are the 2 foremost influential, consistent examples, over time.
I posted examples of what they are doing to make them so.
That should make you look beyond your willful blindness to what you're doing by repeating mindless tropes.
I expect that sort of thing from TLD & ffg. I thought that you would be intellectually honest enough to rise above that.

I don't expect my feedback to "determine what you say".
You've made clear that you're unwilling to avoid the obvious anti-semitism.

Why that is, is not clear...but you're definitely making a choice.

He won’t be cowed into not utilizing anti-semitic tropes. It’s his choice.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:43 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:18 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 6:46 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:53 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 4:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:55 am
Re Nuland and Soros...are they the only prominent people who have supported Ukraine and other former Soviet holdings turning away from authoritarianism and Russian domination towards democracy and the West?

Nope. But they're the ones the hard right wing chooses to emphasize.

The two Jewish people.

They're the ones the hard right wing "Nationalists" choose to emphasize.
Christian Nationalists propaganda.

Other than Biden (w/Blinken) & John McCain, they are the 2 most influential figures in the promotion of regime change & dismemberment of Russia, dating back to Maidan in 2014.

VP Biden (w/ his staff advisor Blinken) was the Obama admin point man on Ukraine & delivered the ultimatum that prompted the elected Ukrainian President to step down in 2014. Senators John McCain & Chris Murphy were on the stage in Maidan, in front of Nuland.

Not all Neo-Con hawks are Jewish. That's just a diversionary smear used to deflect any critique of the policies they advocate.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/neoconser ... nservative

There are plenty of gentiles in positions of power propelling us down this road to confrontation with Russia, with the ultimate goal of weakening Russia via regime change & the further dismemberment of the historic Russian nation. Nuland & Soros are 2 of the most impactful over the long run.

Yup, there are indeed plenty of gentiles who have supported democratic movements throwing off the yoke of Soviet and Russian domination.

But right wing Christian Nationalists always mention Soros and Nuland, usually by themselves, and it ain't by accident.

I'm not saying you are anti-Semitic, but pretending to be oblivious (and I have to assume it's pretending at this point in our back and forth) is willfully repeating the anti-Semitic propaganda that is rampant in right wing media and right wing pseudo intellectual circles.

If you're opposed to democracy movements in those areas because of geo-political risks, we can have that conversation, but resorting to trolling anti-Semitic tropes is unhelpful. And I have to assume you know that by now, right?

I'm not oblivious to what you're saying. Nor am I going to let it determine what I say.
Nuland & Soros are the 2 foremost influential, consistent examples, over time.
I posted examples of what they are doing to make them so.
That should make you look beyond your willful blindness to what you're doing by repeating mindless tropes.
I expect that sort of thing from TLD & ffg. I thought that you would be intellectually honest enough to rise above that.

I don't expect my feedback to "determine what you say".
You've made clear that you're unwilling to avoid the obvious anti-semitism.

Why that is, is not clear...but you're definitely making a choice.

He won’t be cowed into not utilizing anti-semitic tropes. It’s his choice.

OK. Give me your nominations for gentiles who have been as influential, over time, of fomenting revolution & regime change in Ukraine, Belarus. & Russia. We have one nomination -- Mitch McConnell. I don't see him as any more significant than other hawkish Senators like McCain, Graham, & Portman (who concentrated on Ukraine), or Dick & Liz Cheney. I maintain that none of them were as consequential, over the long haul, as Nuland & Soros have been. If you agree with them, you should acknowledge their effectiveness & applaud them, rather than diverting attention from their efforts.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:05 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:43 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:18 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 6:46 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:53 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 4:56 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:01 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:55 am
Re Nuland and Soros...are they the only prominent people who have supported Ukraine and other former Soviet holdings turning away from authoritarianism and Russian domination towards democracy and the West?

Nope. But they're the ones the hard right wing chooses to emphasize.

The two Jewish people.

They're the ones the hard right wing "Nationalists" choose to emphasize.
Christian Nationalists propaganda.

Other than Biden (w/Blinken) & John McCain, they are the 2 most influential figures in the promotion of regime change & dismemberment of Russia, dating back to Maidan in 2014.

VP Biden (w/ his staff advisor Blinken) was the Obama admin point man on Ukraine & delivered the ultimatum that prompted the elected Ukrainian President to step down in 2014. Senators John McCain & Chris Murphy were on the stage in Maidan, in front of Nuland.

Not all Neo-Con hawks are Jewish. That's just a diversionary smear used to deflect any critique of the policies they advocate.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/neoconser ... nservative

There are plenty of gentiles in positions of power propelling us down this road to confrontation with Russia, with the ultimate goal of weakening Russia via regime change & the further dismemberment of the historic Russian nation. Nuland & Soros are 2 of the most impactful over the long run.

Yup, there are indeed plenty of gentiles who have supported democratic movements throwing off the yoke of Soviet and Russian domination.

But right wing Christian Nationalists always mention Soros and Nuland, usually by themselves, and it ain't by accident.

I'm not saying you are anti-Semitic, but pretending to be oblivious (and I have to assume it's pretending at this point in our back and forth) is willfully repeating the anti-Semitic propaganda that is rampant in right wing media and right wing pseudo intellectual circles.

If you're opposed to democracy movements in those areas because of geo-political risks, we can have that conversation, but resorting to trolling anti-Semitic tropes is unhelpful. And I have to assume you know that by now, right?

I'm not oblivious to what you're saying. Nor am I going to let it determine what I say.
Nuland & Soros are the 2 foremost influential, consistent examples, over time.
I posted examples of what they are doing to make them so.
That should make you look beyond your willful blindness to what you're doing by repeating mindless tropes.
I expect that sort of thing from TLD & ffg. I thought that you would be intellectually honest enough to rise above that.

I don't expect my feedback to "determine what you say".
You've made clear that you're unwilling to avoid the obvious anti-semitism.

Why that is, is not clear...but you're definitely making a choice.

He won’t be cowed into not utilizing anti-semitic tropes. It’s his choice.

OK. Give me your nominations for gentiles who have been as influential, over time, of fomenting revolution & regime change in Ukraine, Belarus. & Russia. We have one nomination -- Mitch McConnell. I don't see him as any more significant than other hawkish Senators like McCain, Graham, & Portman (who concentrated on Ukraine), or Dick & Liz Cheney. I maintain that none of them were as consequential, over the long haul, as Nuland & Soros have been. If you agree with them, you should acknowledge their effectiveness & applaud them, rather than diverting attention from their efforts.

There aren’t any. The Jews run the country.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:14 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:17 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:55 am

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:07 am The same arrangement we have with the tac nucs bombs we provide our NATO allies.
We provide the codes for them to use them.

Which do we provide them to?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep28847.10

It's a major factor in which model fighter aircraft participating NATO members choose to procure.
Not all options are certified by the US for delivery of the nuclear weapon provided.

Here's a lengthy WP explainer on the B-61 bomb. I''ll post the text, if anyone is interested.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... 61-russia/

Looks to me like the US maintains absolute and full control of these weapons...some "infrastructure" is provided by some of the NATO allies, but that's not the same as providing them with the weapons for their discretionary usage.

...if you consider the aircraft & crews who maintain & fly them to be "infrastructure".
The US cannot order that they be used. The US can prevent their unilateral use.
Do you think Russia has any less control over the nuclear weapons they will be providing to Belarus.
obtw -- the UK & France have their own independent nuc capability, which was developed with US assistance.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:13 pm ...if you consider the aircraft & crews who maintain & fly them to be "infrastructure".
The US cannot order that they be used. The US can prevent their unilateral use.
Do you think Russia has any less control over the nuclear weapons they will be providing to Belarus.

Yes. They obviously have less control. NATO nations aren't going to turn on the US and join Russia.

Again: witness Ukraine. What would have happened if we never pulled nukes from there?

They would have developed their own short range missiles just like the other folks out there. And Russia would never have invaded.

If Belarus goes awol on Putin, those weapons will be NATO property. It's a dumb long term move, IMHO.

a fan wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:22 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:13 pm ...if you consider the aircraft & crews who maintain & fly them to be "infrastructure".
The US cannot order that they be used. The US can prevent their unilateral use.
Do you think Russia has any less control over the nuclear weapons they will be providing to Belarus.

Yes. They obviously have less control. NATO nations aren't going to turn on the US and join Russia.

Again: witness Ukraine. What would have happened if we never pulled nukes from there?

They would have developed their own short range missiles just like the other folks out there. And Russia would never have invaded.

If Belarus goes awol on Putin, those weapons will be NATO property. It's a dumb long term move, IMHO.

It has yet to be reported that Russia will be giving up custody & operational control of the weapons.
I'm waiting to see how this plays out in actuality before jumping to conclusions.
https://thehill.com/homenews/ap/ap-inte ... n-belarus/
What happens to our B-61's in Incirlik if Erdogan goes awol ?

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:31 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:22 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:13 pm ...if you consider the aircraft & crews who maintain & fly them to be "infrastructure".
The US cannot order that they be used. The US can prevent their unilateral use.
Do you think Russia has any less control over the nuclear weapons they will be providing to Belarus.

Yes. They obviously have less control. NATO nations aren't going to turn on the US and join Russia.

Again: witness Ukraine. What would have happened if we never pulled nukes from there?

They would have developed their own short range missiles just like the other folks out there. And Russia would never have invaded.

If Belarus goes awol on Putin, those weapons will be NATO property. It's a dumb long term move, IMHO.

It has yet to be reported that Russia will be giving up custody & operational control of the weapons.
I'm waiting to see how this plays out in actuality before jumping to conclusions.
https://thehill.com/homenews/ap/ap-inte ... n-belarus/
What happens to our B-61's in Incirlik if Erdogan goes awol ?

Great question. Seem you agree, then, with my premise. This is a dumb move by Putin, and yes, I'm happy to wait and see how this plays out, or if this is more BS from Putin & Co., and they'll never ship the nukes for the very reason I cited.

As you know, I've been telling you how downright stupid it is that Turkey is in NATO in the first place. For years. You just cited yet another reason why it's near the top of the list of ongoing dumb American Foreign Policy moves.

a fan wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:35 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:31 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:22 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:13 pm ...if you consider the aircraft & crews who maintain & fly them to be "infrastructure".
The US cannot order that they be used. The US can prevent their unilateral use.
Do you think Russia has any less control over the nuclear weapons they will be providing to Belarus.

Yes. They obviously have less control. NATO nations aren't going to turn on the US and join Russia.

Again: witness Ukraine. What would have happened if we never pulled nukes from there?

They would have developed their own short range missiles just like the other folks out there. And Russia would never have invaded.

If Belarus goes awol on Putin, those weapons will be NATO property. It's a dumb long term move, IMHO.

It has yet to be reported that Russia will be giving up custody & operational control of the weapons.
I'm waiting to see how this plays out in actuality before jumping to conclusions.
https://thehill.com/homenews/ap/ap-inte ... n-belarus/
What happens to our B-61's in Incirlik if Erdogan goes awol ?

Great question. Seem you agree, then, with my premise. This is a dumb move by Putin, and yes, I'm happy to wait and see how this plays out, or if this is more BS from Putin & Co., and they'll never ship the nukes for the very reason I cited.

As you know, I've been telling you how downright stupid it is that Turkey is in NATO in the first place. For years. You just cited yet another reason why it's near the top of the list of ongoing dumb American Foreign Policy moves.

IMO -- it is better to retain what limited control & influence we have over Turkey.
If we force them out of NATO, they'll soon be at war with Greece, using Russian weapons.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... r-strategy

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:46 pm IMO -- it is better to retain what limited control & influence we have over Turkey.
If we force them out of NATO, they'll soon be at war with Greece, using Russian weapons.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... r-strategy

Correction....if Turkey leaves NATO, and tried to go to war with Greece...

...they'd be at war with NATO. I like our chances.

a fan wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:46 pm IMO -- it is better to retain what limited control & influence we have over Turkey.
If we force them out of NATO, they'll soon be at war with Greece, using Russian weapons.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... r-strategy

Correction....if Turkey leaves NATO, and tried to go to war with Greece...

...they'd be at war with NATO. I like our chances.

Are you recommending that the US try to get Turkey expelled from NATO ?

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 11:02 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:46 pm IMO -- it is better to retain what limited control & influence we have over Turkey.
If we force them out of NATO, they'll soon be at war with Greece, using Russian weapons.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... r-strategy

Correction....if Turkey leaves NATO, and tried to go to war with Greece...

...they'd be at war with NATO. I like our chances.

Are you recommending that the US try to get Turkey expelled from NATO ?

The mere fact that this isn't prohibited in the bylaws tells me that either NATO needs its head examined.....or this is so far off the edge that no one thought a member would do anything this stupid.

To answer your question? If I was POTUS? Absolutely. Because what's the point of NATO if you're dependent on Russia for weapons?

Heck, I would have threatened the EU over energy and any other critical trade.

This isn't complicated: either Russia is a threat worthy of the enormous effort that is NATO, or they aren't. Trade non essential goods until the cows come home. But weapons, energy to the point of dependence, etc? That tells me that NATO isn't needed.

And what would have happened, for example, with Energy? If you told our allies "yep, you're welcome to buy energy from Russia. But if you do, we're leaving NATO, and spending US tax dollars on what the European people CLEARLY thinks are better priorities".

Is this not in line with your thinking? You've been complaining about NATO freeloaders for forever and a day, right?

IMO -- NATO is still worth having. The last 2 years demonstrate why.
Trump & Putin, in different ways, have both made NATO stronger & more effective.
I still hope to see NATO return to the burden sharing we had during the Cold War,
but I don't want it to take another Cold War to get there.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:13 am IMO -- NATO is still worth having. The last 2 years demonstrate why.

I agree on both counts.

I also agree with what I believe is an assessment I share with you that NATO has been walking all over the US the last several years, Turkey's purchase of Russia's arms is cherry on top. Sometimes you need to tell the truth to friends, and that we are sick of the American people going without, so that NATO members can enjoy things like free education and health care on the backs of American troops.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:13 am Trump & Putin, in different ways, have both made NATO stronger & more effective.
I still hope to see NATO return to the burden sharing we had during the Cold War,
but I don't want it to take another Cold War to get there.

Russia is too small economically to make it a real Cold War, but I agree with your overall point here.

Putin CHOSE this moronic path. All he had to do is take Hillary's admittedly clumsy overtures, and become a key trading partner with the US. If Putin had done that, instead of this stupid path? Americans would be vacationing in Moscow on the cheap, enjoying some pretty nice vodka.

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:57 am

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:13 am IMO -- NATO is still worth having. The last 2 years demonstrate why.

I agree on both counts.

I also agree with what I believe is an assessment I share with you that NATO has been walking all over the US the last several years, Turkey's purchase of Russia's arms is cherry on top. Sometimes you need to tell the truth to friends, and that we are sick of the American people going without, so that NATO members can enjoy things like free education and health care on the backs of American troops.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:13 am Trump & Putin, in different ways, have both made NATO stronger & more effective.
I still hope to see NATO return to the burden sharing we had during the Cold War,
but I don't want it to take another Cold War to get there.

Russia is too small economically to make it a real Cold War, but I agree with your overall point here.

Putin CHOSE this moronic path. All he had to do is take Hillary's admittedly clumsy overtures, and become a key trading partner with the US. If Putin had done that, instead of this stupid path? Americans would be vacationing in Moscow on the cheap, enjoying some pretty nice vodka.

Clumsy overture may be the biggest understatement of all time.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 10:13 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 9:14 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:17 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:55 am

old salt wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 5:07 am The same arrangement we have with the tac nucs bombs we provide our NATO allies.
We provide the codes for them to use them.

Which do we provide them to?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep28847.10

It's a major factor in which model fighter aircraft participating NATO members choose to procure.
Not all options are certified by the US for delivery of the nuclear weapon provided.

Here's a lengthy WP explainer on the B-61 bomb. I''ll post the text, if anyone is interested.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... 61-russia/

Looks to me like the US maintains absolute and full control of these weapons...some "infrastructure" is provided by some of the NATO allies, but that's not the same as providing them with the weapons for their discretionary usage.

...if you consider the aircraft & crews who maintain & fly them to be "infrastructure".
The US cannot order that they be used. The US can prevent their unilateral use.
Do you think Russia has any less control over the nuclear weapons they will be providing to Belarus.
obtw -- the UK & France have their own independent nuc capability, which was developed with US assistance.

I was only responding to your own unqualified statements...which your own links show were grossly overstated.

As to Russia's arrangement with Belarus, your confidently stated claim that "it's the same as" our arrangement with NATO allies may or may not be accurate...but it's not a statement I made. That's yours to prove. I simply questioned your characterization of our arrangement with our allies in NATO.

Do Presidents of allies offer US nuclear weapons to any nation who joins NATO?

You and a fan are arguing another aspect, the likelihood of Belarus remaining an authoritarian state in Russia's control. I tend to agree that it's pretty darn likely that Belarus will eventually turn to democracy like most of their neighbors. Could be wrong.