njbill wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 2:32 pm
I don’t disagree that the drugs Trump takes or doesn’t take should be at the direction of his doctor, not us keyboard pounders on FanLax.
But, given all of the surrounding circumstances, I think the American public has the right to know why HCQ has been prescribed for Trump. I have not seen anything to suggest that physicians should be giving the drug to anyone merely as a prophylactic.
So why is Trumps getting it? Does he have Covid-19?
If the drug is being (arguably improperly) prescribed for him as a prophylactic, that is certainly something the American public has a right to know.
(Course I’m not ruling out the possibility that he is simply lying about it.)
You mean it doesn’t stop a person from contracting the virus?
I really can't comprehend the resistance to something that works. Real humans are alive today for taking it.
So, the FDA is wrong, and all the scientists saying there's insufficient basis to make such a claim are all wrong too?
You know better?
Irrelevant what the FDA says in this instance The drugs approved for human use and can be prescribed off label.
MANY MANY folks say they thought they were going to die and they took the drug as a last resort. It worked.
So why do you protest so about it.
And because those reports are anecdotal, they REALLY DO NOT KNOW if it was taking the drug that worked.
And when an effect is relatively small, or does not exist, sellers of "cures" always rely on anecdotal claims. "It worked for me" so buy it.
One of my personal favorites is Prevagen - which is selling you an unproven treatment for memory loss.
Unproven supplements like Prevagen (Made from jellyfish! With a hard to pronounce crucial ingredient!) utilize a facade of "proven benefits" and succeed by promoting themselves as science-backed on radio, television, and the internet.
The JAMA article notes that this industry thrives due to the increasing prevalence of Alzheimer's disease, and its lack of effective treatments.
Consumers, it goes on to say, who are intent on finding methods to prevent dementia need to know three things:
There is no known dietary supplement that prevents cognitive decline for dementia.
Supplements do not undergo FDA testing for safety or review for efficacy.
Some supplements may cause harm. For example, vitamin E increases risk of hemorrhagic stroke and, in high doses, increases risk of death.
The Facade of Science-Backed Research
Companies like Quincy Bioscience, the maker of Prevagen, utilize sophisticated techniques that supply false scientific backing for brain health interventions.
The website for Prevagen states "Prevagen improves memory" and "has been clinically shown to help with mild memory loss associated with aging."
As the JAMA articled pointed out, these bogus brain supplement companies quote scientific articles that appear valid but lack essential features such as "sufficient participant characterization, treatment randomization and fail to include limitations." These bad papers are often published in predatory open-access journals.
In the case of Prevagen, despite marketing that includes "The Science Behind Prevagen," there isn't even a single study published in the peer-reviewed scientific literature -- predatory or otherwise.
If you click on the "View the Study" link you will be taken to a PDF of the "Madison Memory Study," which is a study sponsored by Quincy Bioscience, performed by an employee of Quincy Bioscience and published in-house by Quincy Bioscience.
In the world of real science, this type of study is ignored and considered extremely preliminary until it is reproduced by a reputable unbiased scientific lab and published in a peer-reviewed journal. The chances for biased results are way too high to trust.
You have to be skeptical until you see some real evidence. The "MANY, MANY folks" ain't it.
Better they died then.
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:15 am
by RedFromMI
6ftstick wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 10:12 am
(omitted)
Better they died then.
Absolutely not. But they did not die. And at the same time it is not clear that HCQ saved them. It is also not clear it did not. Or it might have had a small role.
The fact is we don't really know. We are only assuming at this point.
6ftstick wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 10:12 am
(omitted)
Better they died then.
Absolutely not. But they did not die. And at the same time it is not clear that HCQ saved them. It is also not clear it did not. Or it might have had a small role.
The fact is we don't really know. We are only assuming at this point.
Then whats wrong with the assumption???????
For 2000 years Many Many people believed that Jesus rose from the dead, he changed water to wine and multiplied the loaves and fishes.
6ftstick wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 10:12 am
(omitted)
Better they died then.
Absolutely not. But they did not die. And at the same time it is not clear that HCQ saved them. It is also not clear it did not. Or it might have had a small role.
The fact is we don't really know. We are only assuming at this point.
Then whats wrong with the assumption???????
For 2000 years Many Many people believed that Jesus rose from the dead, he changed water to wine and multiplied the loaves and fishes.
To allow a drug to be used for a particular purpose, you are supposed to show it is both safe and effective. There is no showing of the effective part here, and since the drug has some known side effects (and in combination with Zpac those side effects may be compounded) it needs to be used with extreme caution (which is why the FDA gave approval only for compassionate use - essentially a last resort). Prescribing for conditions not approved for is legal, but and doctor doing so needs to be quite certain that any bad side effects can be managed.
For the average person on the street, that is a lot harder to do than say with the president. He has a full medical staff that can keep track of his health much more often that the general public.
And BTW, the whole thing about Jesus is a matter of faith, not science. Science cannot either prove or exclude such claims, as they don't have the requisite requirement to be falsifiable.
Drug efficacy, however, does fall within that purview.
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:31 am
by MDlaxfan76
Simply because we know, from prior study that there are serious negative effects upon some patients. We do not know which patients will have these side effects, but we do know that they will happen if people take this drug.
We also know that the drug has previously been used in short durations, not long duration, and these negative effects have occurred in short duration. We don't know if they will be worse over longer duration. Likewise, we don't know what drug interactions may exist, nor what the drug may do with someone actually infected by COVID in particular.
So, we say MAYBE it Could have some positive effect, but we KNOW it has negative effects.
Is it worth testing in controlled studies?
Sure, because if we could actually PROVE benefits that are significant and outweigh the negative, then we can recommend taking the drug.
Unfortunately, the most controlled studies are not producing results that would give confidence in using this drug, whether in treatment or in prevention. But there are more studies underway, so if you want to hold out hope on this, go for it. (but there are numerous other drugs being studied which have greater likelihood of material positive impact)
But only an IDIOT would take this one under the notion that "what's there to lose?" or "many peoples' lives have been saved".
Red, makes the important point that the risk is reduced for someone under close medical supervision as would be the case for someone in a controlled, hospital based study. And presumably Trump (who definitely is an Idiot) is under such close medical supervision, so his personal risk is mitigated.
njbill wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 2:32 pm
I don’t disagree that the drugs Trump takes or doesn’t take should be at the direction of his doctor, not us keyboard pounders on FanLax.
But, given all of the surrounding circumstances, I think the American public has the right to know why HCQ has been prescribed for Trump. I have not seen anything to suggest that physicians should be giving the drug to anyone merely as a prophylactic.
So why is Trumps getting it? Does he have Covid-19?
If the drug is being (arguably improperly) prescribed for him as a prophylactic, that is certainly something the American public has a right to know.
(Course I’m not ruling out the possibility that he is simply lying about it.)
You mean it doesn’t stop a person from contracting the virus?
I really can't comprehend the resistance to something that works. Real humans are alive today for taking it.
So, the FDA is wrong, and all the scientists saying there's insufficient basis to make such a claim are all wrong too?
You know better?
There is no creditable data yet that shows the efficacy of HCQ in treating COVID-19. Anecdotal data that has been reported has been collected under conditions that do not allow anyone to make the claim that this drug is actually saving lives.
Until you have double blind studies with a reasonable number of patients you are only guessing.
red, generally like to hear from your perspective and measured
posts... this applies the other way, too? conclusions that it's worthless and also hearing from the heads of our congress on their medical expertise?
am all for getting real trials to tell us what's up. am too impatient about it for this and other options as frankly this isn't something that takes many months to build out an infrastructure for... but i expect a host of them to be giving out real info in the coming months.
red, generally like to hear from your perspective and measured
posts... this applies the other way, too? conclusions that it's worthless and also hearing from the heads of our congress on their medical expertise?
am all for getting real trials to tell us what's up. am too impatient about it for this and other options as frankly this isn't something that takes many months to build out an infrastructure for... but i expect a host of them to be giving out real info in the coming months.
[/quote]
Thanks. I am all for real controlled studies here - but not jumping on a HCQ bandwagon like the president before we have real data that we can trust. I also think there will be other drugs/treatments that will overtake HCQ in dealing with the disease, as so far the benefits seem a bit too marginal.
And I really do want to have some sort of effective treatment. There are a heck of a lot of things I want to do - but am kind of hamstrung. Visit my daughter/fiance up north (I have to bring up the last of her stored furniture). Other relative visits. Get back to a more normal college schedule for the fall.
I also want to be sure that the people around me can be safe.
BTW, I got my first haircut yesterday, as they have reopened this type of business in SC. Both of us wearing masks, and instead of a cloth covering to catch the hair falling, a fresh piece of plastic per user. Outside door kept locked so no one was in the waiting room. Felt good, and I did not feel unsafe. For the time being a new normal.
Re: All things COVID-19
Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:05 am
by RedFromMI
On a more interesting note - from today's NYT coronavirus live updates:
A city locks down to fight the coronavirus, but robots come and go.
If any place was prepared for quarantine, it was Milton Keynes. Two years before the pandemic, a start-up called Starship Technologies deployed a fleet of rolling delivery robots in the small city about 50 miles northwest of London.
The squat six-wheeled robots shuttled groceries and dinner orders to homes and offices. As the coronavirus spread, Starship shifted the fleet even further into grocery deliveries. Locals like Emma Maslin could buy from the corner store with no human contact.
“There’s no social interaction with a robot,” Ms. Maslin said.
The sudden usefulness of the robots to people staying in their homes is a tantalizing hint of what the machines could one day accomplish — at least under ideal conditions. Milton Keynes, with a population of 270,000 and a vast network of bicycle paths, is perfectly suited to rolling robots. Demand has been so high in recent weeks, some residents have spent days trying to schedule a delivery.
Of course, there are some logistical and technological limitations - what happens in winter? Or when traffic is ramped up?
Re: All things COVID-19
Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:16 pm
by RedFromMI
OPINION Health leaders: We stuck together to #StayHome, now we can start together to #OpenSafely
We don’t believe we need to wait until there is zero risk. Many states are already beginning to reopen and this must happen in the safest way possible.
Andy Slavitt, Dr. Mark McClellan and 19 other health leaders
C.D.C. releases guidance that the White House had shelved.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention quietly released more detailed guidance for schools, businesses, transit systems and other industries hoping to reopen safely amid the coronavirus pandemic after fear that the White House had shelved the guidelines.
The 60-page document, which a C.D.C. spokesman said was uploaded over the weekend, but which received little notice, adds great detail to six charts that the C.D.C. had released last week. The guidance provides specific instructions for different sectors to detect and trace the virus based on exposure and risk after the pandemic.
A prototype vaccine has protected monkeys from the virus, researches have found.
A prototype vaccine has protected monkeys from the virus, researchers reported on Wednesday, a finding that offers new hope for effective human vaccines.
Scientists are already testing virus vaccines in people, but the initial trials are designed to determine safety, not how well a vaccine works. The research published Wednesday offers insight into what a vaccine must do to be effective and how to measure that.
“To me, this is convincing that a vaccine is possible,” said Dr. Nelson Michael, the director of the Center for Infectious Diseases Research at Walter Reed Army Institute of Research.
Scientists are engaged in a worldwide scramble to create a vaccine against the new virus. Over a hundred research projects have been launched; early safety trials in humans have been started or completed in nine of them.
Next to come are larger trials to determine whether these candidate vaccines are not just safe, but effective. But those results won’t arrive for months.
In the meantime, Dr. Dan Barouch, a virologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, and his colleagues have started a series of experiments on monkeys to get a broader look at how coronaviruses affect monkeys — and whether vaccines could fight them. Their report was published in Science.
In one series of experiments, each monkey received pieces of DNA, which their cells turned into viral proteins designed to train the immune system to recognize the virus.
Most coronavirus vaccines are intended to coax the immune system to make antibodies that latch onto the spike protein and destroy the virus. Dr. Barouch and his colleagues tried out six variations.
Some of the vaccines provided only partial protection, but other vaccines worked better. The one that worked best trained the immune system to recognize and attack the entire spike protein of the coronavirus. In eight monkeys, the researchers couldn’t detect the virus at all.
“I think that overall this will be seen as very good news for the vaccine effort,” said Dr. Barouch. “This increases our optimism that a vaccine for Covid-19 will be possible.”
Interesting possible twist on the Trump HCQ sideshow/reality show/cluster.
Many are speculating that Trump is lying about actually taking the drug.
The doctor letter doesn't precisely say that Trump is taking it or that the doc prescribed it. The letter says the doc discussed the topic with Trump and that they concluded the benefits of treatment outweigh the risks.
This kerfuffle is a nice synopsis of how FUBAR-ed the Trump White House is. While Trump may in fact be taking the drug, it is totally plausible that he'd fabricate the story in order to win a couple of news cycles and distract/own the libs.
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 1:59 pm
by wgdsr
ggait wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 1:34 pm
Interesting possible twist on the Trump HCQ sideshow/reality show/cluster.
Many are speculating that Trump is lying about actually taking the drug.
The doctor letter doesn't precisely say that Trump is taking it or that the doc prescribed it. The letter says the doc discussed the topic with Trump and that they concluded the benefits of treatment outweigh the risks.
This kerfuffle is a nice synopsis of how FUBAR-ed the Trump White House is. While Trump may in fact be taking the drug, it is totally plausible that he'd fabricate the story in order to win a couple of news cycles and distract/own the libs.
if we weren't in a pandemic, i'd totally want this to become a mystery and headline with competing agendas, theories, misinformation and amateur private detective hour. yet another microcosm of our political landscape over the last decades, inclusive of a lapping up public and how we digest and regurgitate message and media.
as it is, i'd like him to pop a pill at his next briefing/rally (with the requisite post-op tight blowup video to confirm) so we can wrap this one up over the next 2 media cycles and move on.
Insanity is feeling like you're in a Twilight Zone episode when you go out and about. Masks on everyone, can't their faces, stand offish, social aspect is a whole different ballgame, plexiglass from the ceiling to the counter to separate you from the person you're handing your cash to, little slot to pass it through. Been worried about what this is going to do to the psyche from early on and I'm not liking it. Memorial Day week end around the corner, hot dogs cooked on a Habatchi in the back yard is the height of the week end with no lacrosse. I hope in the end we all say, yes sir, we did the right thing and it's a damn good thing we did. Am hating these masks and what it's like out and about.
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:29 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
DMac wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 10:59 pm
Insanity is feeling like you're in a Twilight Zone episode when you go out and about. Masks on everyone, can't their faces, stand offish, social aspect is a whole different ballgame, plexiglass from the ceiling to the counter to separate you from the person you're handing your cash to, little slot to pass it through. Been worried about what this is going to do to the psyche from early on and I'm not liking it. Memorial Day week end around the corner, hot dogs cooked on a Habatchi in the back yard is the height of the week end with no lacrosse. I hope in the end we all say, yes sir, we did the right thing and it's a damn good thing we did. Am hating these masks and what it's like out and about.
Plexiglass? 8 inch bullet proof polycarbonate has been around for years!
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:58 pm
by holmes435
Sweden not doing so hot compared to neighbors. Or the rest of the world
Re: All things Chinese CoronaVirus
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:53 am
by Brooklyn
Texas church closes after priest dies, members get coronavirus
A Texas church canceled Mass services just days after reopening after a priest died and several members of his religious order tested positive for the coronavirus.
Holy Ghost Catholic Church in Houston reopened its doors on May 2, as the Lone Star State began loosening its stay-at-home orders.But on May 14, the parish canceled all services after Father Donnell Kirchner died. Five members of the congregation tested positive for COVID-19, church officials said Monday.
according to certain right wing delusionals they were just enjoying their new "freedom"
