All Things Russia & Ukraine

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32756
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:19 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:05 pm
old salt wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:57 pm
Orange Revolution, 2004 :
https://www.foxnews.com/story/u-s-spent ... ian-groups

AP story, Dec 10, 2004
The Bush administration has spent more than $65 million in the past two years to aid political organizations in Ukraine...
...part of the $1 billion the State Department spends each year trying to build democracy worldwide.
... officials acknowledge some of the money helped train groups and individuals opposed to the Russian-backed government candidate — people who now call themselves part of the Orange revolution.
Thanks. We had it coming to us. We shouldn't care....Next time we do it in Russia, they shouldn't care either....
$1 billion would buy a lot of Facebook ads & hire a bunch of hackers & trolls.
:lol: :lol:
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
OCanada
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by OCanada »

Ukraine has developed a cadre of extreme right wing organizations that are getting paid to train people in various activities. They are not, last I saw, pro democracy so much as they are extreme right wing and white power. The same kind of people Trump was working with to develop personal attacks against Biden’s son.

The fact of the matter is the money appropriated for protecting our electoral integrity and the unit charged with it.. well not so much. Meanwhile State continues its high attrition.

They also cut foreign aid in Central America which was a stabilizing factor. Another goal of Russian Geo political wishes.
6ftstick
Posts: 3194
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:19 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by 6ftstick »

OCanada wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:05 pm Ukraine has developed a cadre of extreme right wing organizations that are getting paid to train people in various activities. They are not, last I saw, pro democracy so much as they are extreme right wing and white power. The same kind of people Trump was working with to develop personal attacks against Biden’s son.

The fact of the matter is the money appropriated for protecting our electoral integrity and the unit charged with it.. well not so much. Meanwhile State continues its high attrition.

They also cut foreign aid in Central America which was a stabilizing factor. Another goal of Russian Geo political wishes.
Looks like Trumps still a Russian agent then

Mueller be damned
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17885
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: All Things Russia

Post by old salt »

OCanada wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:05 pm Ukraine has developed a cadre of extreme right wing organizations that are getting paid to train people in various activities. They are not, last I saw, pro democracy so much as they are extreme right wing and white power. The same kind of people Trump was working with to develop personal attacks against Biden’s son.
Our allies -- the ultra right wing, neo-Nazi, Azoz Battalion & National Front militias.
Part of the anti-Russia coalition the US supported in the Orange & Maidan Revolutions.
Out State Dept envoy, Victorian Nuland made sandwiches for them & said "F the EU".
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohe ... SKBN1GV2TY

...the Kremlin’s claims that Ukraine is a hornets’ nest of fascists are false... But connections between law enforcement agencies and extremists give Ukraine’s Western allies ample reason for concern....

There’s no easy way to eradicate the virulent far-right extremism that has been poisoning Ukrainian politics and public life, but without vigorous and immediate efforts to counteract it, it may soon endanger the state itself.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26312
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

6ftstick wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:36 pm
OCanada wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:05 pm Ukraine has developed a cadre of extreme right wing organizations that are getting paid to train people in various activities. They are not, last I saw, pro democracy so much as they are extreme right wing and white power. The same kind of people Trump was working with to develop personal attacks against Biden’s son.

The fact of the matter is the money appropriated for protecting our electoral integrity and the unit charged with it.. well not so much. Meanwhile State continues its high attrition.

They also cut foreign aid in Central America which was a stabilizing factor. Another goal of Russian Geo political wishes.
Looks like Trumps still a Russian agent then

Mueller be damned
"agent" only maybe; "useful idiot" definitely.

Read the Mueller Report.
OCanada
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by OCanada »

She did indeed. And for good reason. She wanted the UN to mediate rather than the EU because the EU was not getting anything done in the circumstances that existed.

The far right is an existential threat to democracy as Russia. It is in the world’s interest to insure Ukraine stays independent of Russia. It is also in the world’s interest to rid the Ukraine of corruption and the far right movement’s strength. Hopefully the new president makes a start.
OCanada
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by OCanada »

This seems the appropriate place. Politico has published a report prepared forr the Joint Chiefs about how Russia is being the USA I'm the race for global influence. it raises the issue of a growing anti-American alliance between Russia an.d China. The far right in the this country and the administration and those "fifth columnists" as they used to be called. The paper is about 150 pages and the link should be https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000016b ... f908e00001

A few observations from it:

Russia is adopting coercive strategies that involve the orchestrated employment of military and nonmilitary means to deter and compel the US, its allies and partners prior to and after the outbreak of hostilities. These strategies must be proactively confronted, or the threat of significant armed conflict may increase.

• Russia exhibits a deep-seated sense of geopolitical insecurity which motivates it to pursue strategic objectives that establish an uncontested sphere of influence in the post-Soviet region. Yet, Russians increasingly disagree with the Kremlin’s assertions that the US is a looming external danger and a subversive force in Russian domestic politics.

• Russia’s gray zone tactics are most effective when the target is deeply polarized or lacks the capacity to resist and respond effectively to Russian aggression. According to Russian strategic thought, deterrence and compellence are two sides of the same coin.


Pretty consistent with what I have been concerned about while others are urging Ukraine be given back to Russia for example.

The story link is here. https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/ ... mp-1535243

The U.S. is ill-equipped to counter the increasingly brazen political warfare Russia is waging to undermine democracies, the Pentagon and independent strategists warn in a detailed assessment that happens to echo much bipartisan criticism of President Donald Trump's approach to Moscow.

The more than 150-page white paper, prepared for the Joint Chiefs of Staff and shared with POLITICO, says the U.S. is still underestimating the scope of Russia's aggression, which includes the use of propaganda and disinformation to sway public opinion across Europe, Central Asia, Africa and Latin America. The study also points to the dangers of a growing alignment between Russia and China, which share a fear of the United States' international alliances and an affinity for "authoritarian stability."

Its authors contend that disarray at home is hampering U.S. efforts to respond — saying America lacks the kind of compelling “story” it used to win the Cold War.

The study doesn't offer any criticisms of Trump, but it comes amid continued chaffing by security hawks in both parties who have objected to the president's repeated slights at U.S. alliances in Europe and Asia, public affection for authoritarian leaders like Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un, and his habit of scoffing at the evidence that Russia interfered in the 2016 election. A grinning Trump added to that pattern Friday in Osaka, Japan, where he got a chuckle out of Putin by admonishing him, "Don't meddle in the election, president."

In interviews with POLITICO, other Russia watchers supported the report's warnings that the U.S. needs to up its game.

"Russia is attacking Western institutions in ways more shrewd and strategically discreet than many realize,” said Natalia Arno, president of the Free Russia Foundation, an anti-Putin Washington think tank that recently completed its own study of Russian efforts to undermine the West. “The attacks may seem more subtle and craftier, but they are every bit as destructive as governments are influenced, laws are changed, legal decisions are undermined, law enforcement is thwarted and military intervention is disguised."


https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/ ... mp-1535243
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17885
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: All Things Russia

Post by old salt »

OCanada wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:07 am She did indeed. And for good reason. She wanted the UN to mediate rather than the EU because the EU was not getting anything done in the circumstances that existed.

The far right is an existential threat to democracy as Russia. It is in the world’s interest to insure Ukraine stays independent of Russia. It is also in the world’s interest to rid the Ukraine of corruption and the far right movement’s strength. Hopefully the new president makes a start.
It was also in the world's interest to rid the world of Saddam & sons, Gaddafi, & Mubarak.

An independent Ukraine does not need to include the majority ethnic Russian oblasts which adjoin Russia.
UN/OSCE monitored self-determination, like in the Balkans.
Russia will never give up Crimea & withdraw from Donetsk & Luhansk.
OCanada
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by OCanada »

Your point is frankly nonsense. It does continue to folllow your pattern of everything pro Russia. The world changed after WWll . Actually after WWl. Ukraine does need to include Crimea. Russia cannot be permitted to just invade countries without penalties. It is a blow to the international order


Regime change in Iraq was a huge mistake. Saddam by that time was a shadow of himself and Iraq was too. It did produce ISIS, destabilize the ME and fail to deliver the nirvana that was promised.

You should spend sometime with the report. It makes very clear why Russia needs to be restrained.
OCanada
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by OCanada »

BTW the USSR voluntarily transferred Crimea to the Ukraine in 1954. In fact they were rather proud of it.

....consent via their republic parliaments. One of the officials present at the 19 February session, Otto Kuusinen, even boasted that “only in our country [the USSR] is it possible that issues of the utmost importance such as the territorial transfer of individual oblasts to a particular republic can be decided without difficulties. “

It all about the Port, all about the Port, about the Port. People are an excuse and rationalization.
6ftstick
Posts: 3194
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:19 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by 6ftstick »

OCanada wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:52 am Your point is frankly nonsense. It does continue to folllow your pattern of everything pro Russia. The world changed after WWll . Actually after WWl. Ukraine does need to include Crimea. Russia cannot be permitted to just invade countries without penalties. It is a blow to the international order


Regime change in Iraq was a huge mistake. Saddam by that time was a shadow of himself and Iraq was too. It did produce ISIS, destabilize the ME and fail to deliver the nirvana that was promised.

You should spend sometime with the report. It makes very clear why Russia needs to be restrained.
So only the brutal dictators you select need to be restrained. I see.
User avatar
dislaxxic
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 11:00 am
Location: Moving to Montana Soon...

Re: All Things Russia

Post by dislaxxic »

"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17885
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: All Things Russia

Post by old salt »

from DefenseOne today :
Speaking of Russia, a new report "prepared for the Joint Chiefs of Staff" warns Moscow is doing a better job than Washington in the battle for global influence, Politico reports. "[T]he U.S. is still underestimating the scope of Russia's aggression, which includes the use of propaganda and disinformation to sway public opinion across Europe, Central Asia, Africa and Latin America. The study also points to the dangers of a growing alignment between Russia and China, which share a fear of the United States' international alliances and an affinity for 'authoritarian stability.'" Read the 150-page report here.
a fan
Posts: 18344
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:11 pm
from DefenseOne today :
Speaking of Russia, a new report "prepared for the Joint Chiefs of Staff" warns Moscow is doing a better job than Washington in the battle for global influence, Politico reports. "[T]he U.S. is still underestimating the scope of Russia's aggression, which includes the use of propaganda and disinformation to sway public opinion across Europe, Central Asia, Africa and Latin America.
You've dismissed and laughed off this threat, have you not? "Change your passwords" was your advice.

Does this mean you've changed course? Or are you just passing this along?

old salt wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:11 pm The study also points to the dangers of a growing alignment between Russia and China, which share a fear of the United States' international alliances and an affinity for 'authoritarian stability.'" Read the 150-page report here.
Good thing we started a pointless trade war with China. Hmmm. I wonder if that will have any other non-trade related consequences?
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17885
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: All Things Russia

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:46 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:11 pm
from DefenseOne today :
Speaking of Russia, a new report "prepared for the Joint Chiefs of Staff" warns Moscow is doing a better job than Washington in the battle for global influence, Politico reports. "[T]he U.S. is still underestimating the scope of Russia's aggression, which includes the use of propaganda and disinformation to sway public opinion across Europe, Central Asia, Africa and Latin America.
You've dismissed and laughed off this threat, have you not? "Change your passwords" was your advice.

Does this mean you've changed course? Or are you just passing this along?

old salt wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:11 pm The study also points to the dangers of a growing alignment between Russia and China, which share a fear of the United States' international alliances and an affinity for 'authoritarian stability.'" Read the 150-page report here.
Good thing we started a pointless trade war with China. Hmmm. I wonder if that will have any other non-trade related consequences?
Did you read the Politico article ? Focus on these parts.
The U.S. is ill-equipped to counter the increasingly brazen political warfare Russia is waging to undermine democracies, ...the U.S. is still underestimating the scope of Russia's aggression, which includes the use of propaganda and disinformation to sway public opinion across Europe, Central Asia, Africa and Latin America. The study also points to the dangers of a growing alignment between Russia and China, which share a fear of the United States' international alliances and an affinity for "authoritarian stability."

Its authors contend that disarray at home is hampering U.S. efforts to respond — saying America lacks the kind of compelling “story” it used to win the Cold War. ...the report's warnings that the U.S. needs to up its game.
"Russia is attacking Western institutions in ways more shrewd and strategically discreet than many realize,”

The unclassified “Strategic Multilayer Assessment” marks a clear warning from the military establishment to civilian leaders about a national security threat that strategists fear, if left unchecked, could ultimately lead to armed conflict.
"In this environment, economic competition, influence campaigns, paramilitary actions, cyber intrusions, and political warfare will likely become more prevalent," writes Navy Rear Adm. Jeffrey Czerewko, the Joint Chiefs' deputy director for global operations, in the preface to the report. "Such confrontations increase the risk of misperception and miscalculation, between powers with significant military strength, which may then increase the risk of armed conflict."

Among other steps, it recommends that the State Department spearhead more aggressive "influence operations," including sowing divisions between Russia and China.

The study addresses what it refers to as Moscow's "gray zone" activities — the emboldened attempts by Putin's regime to undermine democratic nations, particularly on Russia's periphery, using means short of direct military conflict.
"These activities include threatening other states militarily, or compromising their societies, economies, and governments by employing a range of means and methods to include propaganda, disinformation, and cultural, religious, and energy coercion,"
Yet the report laments the lack of a unified message within the United States, in turn due to a lack of coordination or agreement among executive branch agencies and Congress.
But that requires coming to an agreement about what the U.S. message should be, ...“We still have a story to tell but because we are so polarized and are doubting ourselves we have a narrative problem,” ...“Russia does not.”

...also raises alarm about ...burgeoning anti-American alliance by Russia and communist China, who have traditionally been fierce competitors despite being on the same side of the Cold War's ideological divide. Steps to counter that could include sowing Russian distrust of China's expanding power on Russia's eastern periphery, as well as Beijing's economic and infrastructure projects on multiple continents.
“The world system, and America’s influence in it, would be completed upended if Moscow and Beijing aligned more closely,”

On the other hand, the assessment sees an urgent need for cooperation with Russia in key areas — especially in the realm of nuclear weapons.
"It is clear that a fresh round of arms racing threatens," ..."The United States can either embrace this, hoping to outpace the Russians, or try to head off such a costly competition with a rededicated arms control/reduction policy."
Such an approach should also seek to "corral" other nuclear weapons states such as North Korea, China, Iran, India and Pakistan,
...acnowledged that former President Barack Obama failed in his attempted "reset" with Russia failed, and that "Trump wanted to do this but he was derailed by the electioneering apparently orchestrated by Moscow." ..."Still it is not too late for such a move" ..."After all the United States works closely with Russia on space operations. Is it a bridge too far to hope for more cooperation at the terrestrial level?"

The greatest check on Putin's ambitions could be the Russian people, said the study, which pointed to evidence of deep public wariness about Moscow's foreign policy, including the 2014 invasion of Ukraine's Crimean peninsula, military support for Russian separatists and "the Kremlin's assertions that the US is a looming external danger."
OCanada
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by OCanada »

OS is not very current esp when his Russiaphimia gets in his way.
a fan
Posts: 18344
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:43 pm
Did you read the Politico article ? Focus on these parts.
I did!

And again, when the rest of the Cooler expressed alarm about Russian cyberattacks on the US and her allies, you made fun of us. Every time.

"Change your password, and quit worrying. Don't believe what you." That was your council.

This article is saying the opposite: this is a serious concern, and it's getting worse. And the US is behind the curve in addressing these issues.

So again: did you change your mind? Or are you simply citing this article, and don't agree with it?

Trying not to put words in your mouth.
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17885
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: All Things Russia

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:13 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:43 pm
Did you read the Politico article ? Focus on these parts.
I did!

And again, when the rest of the Cooler expressed alarm about Russian cyberattacks on the US and her allies, you made fun of us. Every time.

"Change your password, and quit worrying. Don't believe what you." That was your council.

This article is saying the opposite: this is a serious concern, and it's getting worse. And the US is behind the curve in addressing these issues.

So again: did you change your mind? Or are you simply citing this article, and don't agree with it?

Trying not to put words in your mouth.
It's the new form of warfare. There's been warnings about it for years.
Instead of taking rational steps to counter it, we're still bickering about it & blaming Trump for it
(although DoD, DHS & the IC are hard at work on it, quietly).

Meanwhile, we're pissing away billions on another Cold War military build up/deployment.
Pinning down & deploying a large % of our forces, playing dangerous Cold War games, rather than engaging with Russia on conventional & nuc warfare de-escalation & demilitarization, in potential areas of mutual benefit.
a fan
Posts: 18344
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: All Things Russia

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:30 pm It's the new form of warfare. There's been warnings about it for years.
Instead of taking rational steps to counter it, we're still bickering about it & blaming Trump for it
Old salt, for heaven's sake, every single poster has been telling you this since the intel report was given to the American people by Obama way back in 2016.

You have done nothing but make fun of us....calling us Russiaphobes, TDS'ers, and anything else you could come up with..... for having the gall to say that the US election systems are under attack by the Russians. You have argued that economic sanctions over these attacks are pointless.

I'm totally lost. You are now telling me that you have switched sides, and decided that yes, this is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with immediately.

This is exactly what I've been trying to tell you for 2 1/2 years! What changed your mind that's making you agree with me in July of 2019??

Baffling.
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 17885
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: All Things Russia

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:40 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:30 pm It's the new form of warfare. There's been warnings about it for years.
Instead of taking rational steps to counter it, we're still bickering about it & blaming Trump for it
Old salt, for heaven's sake, every single poster has been telling you this since the intel report was given to the American people by Obama way back in 2016.

You have done nothing but make fun of us....calling us Russiaphobes, TDS'ers, and anything else you could come up with..... for having the gall to say that the US election systems are under attack by the Russians. You have argued that economic sanctions over these attacks are pointless.

I'm totally lost. You are now telling me that you have switched sides, and decided that yes, this is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with immediately.

This is exactly what I've been trying to tell you for 2 1/2 years! What changed your mind that's making you agree with me in July of 2019??

Baffling.
You seem to exist in a state of constant bafflement. It is what it is.
Instead of acknowledging it & taking reasonable steps, as individual citizens (& the MSM), to recognize & counter it.
We continue to use it as a political cudgel to hammer Trump.
Meanwhile, our govt agencies continue to work quietly (as it should be) to counter it.

It was not the "act of war" it was hyped into. It is standard, long practiced, disinformation, delivered via cyber-platforms.
It's only as effective as we allow it to be.
Post Reply

Return to “POLITICS”