The Nation's Financial Condition

[jhu72]

President Trump: "We're signing a monster. A big, beautiful monster. Forty to fifty billion dollars to our farmers. Our farmers will be taken in, I keep saying go buy larger tractors."

More Dole for famers...

Yup. Tired of supporting these slackers, "takers", on the dole. Just a bribe to forgive him for his trade war disaster.

[youthathletics]

President Trump: "We're signing a monster. A big, beautiful monster. Forty to fifty billion dollars to our farmers. Our farmers will be taken in, I keep saying go buy larger tractors."

More Dole for famers...

Yup. Tired of supporting these slackers, "takers", on the dole. Just a bribe to forgive him for his trade war disaster.

Trump was president in 1985?

[a fan]

So far as Microsoft, that begets an entire discussion of the tax code. I (like you) rely on professionals to help make some time-sensitive capital investment decisions which invariably affect our year-end corporate tax. My suspicion is many tech companies game the tax code way more than the average company is able, though I also recall when I was a GE shareholder (no longer) that they seemed adept at those tricks, too.

Microsoft doesn't "game" the tax code. Microsoft writes the tax code. I wish I could do that.

I happen to be a believer in a flat sales tax, but man is that a long discussion.

If by "sales tax" you mean a tax that's levied any time a good or service is exchanged....no matter if it's business to business, or business to consumer? We've discussed this in great detail. It was my suggestion from a decade or so ago. Everyone here is 100% on board.

If you mean a "retail tax"? Hard pass.

Now as to our country's debt, I believe there will eventually be a settlement of debts in exchange for a lowering if not elimination of tariffs

I don't understand what you mean here. Tariffs have nothing directly to do with tariffs.

I have never understood how it is not a bigger deal to much smarter folks than I, but it isn't. Hence, my guess is there is always some 'out' which most people are not factoring in when we think the debt is practically insurmountable.

There is no "out". The "out" is to raise taxes to pay it off.. That, and a cut in services. Future generations will pay for our current bills.

[Peter Brown]

So far as Microsoft, that begets an entire discussion of the tax code. I (like you) rely on professionals to help make some time-sensitive capital investment decisions which invariably affect our year-end corporate tax. My suspicion is many tech companies game the tax code way more than the average company is able, though I also recall when I was a GE shareholder (no longer) that they seemed adept at those tricks, too.

Microsoft doesn't "game" the tax code. Microsoft writes the tax code. I wish I could do that.

I happen to be a believer in a flat sales tax, but man is that a long discussion.

If by "sales tax" you mean a tax that's levied any time a good or service is exchanged....no matter if it's business to business, or business to consumer? We've discussed this in great detail. It was my suggestion from a decade or so ago. Everyone here is 100% on board.

If you mean a "retail tax"? Hard pass.

Now as to our country's debt, I believe there will eventually be a settlement of debts in exchange for a lowering if not elimination of tariffs

I don't understand what you mean here. Tariffs have nothing directly to do with tariffs.

I have never understood how it is not a bigger deal to much smarter folks than I, but it isn't. Hence, my guess is there is always some 'out' which most people are not factoring in when we think the debt is practically insurmountable.

There is no "out". The "out" is to raise taxes to pay it off.. That, and a cut in services. Future generations will pay for our current bills.

As to my comment that there might be a settlement (I give you x if you give me y), I have heard this theory at some banker cocktail parties and nothing more, so who knows. The U.S. debt to China is $1.10 trillion as of October 2019.1 That's 26.7% of the $4.12 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $23 trillion national debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S. government itself. For China, we grant them lower tariff rates to wipe out debt...same with Japan and so forth.

Then we turn to the internal US holders of debt (mostly banks), and basically wipe that out by issuing a new hard currency. I don't know if any of this will happen, but I guess my thought is this: if it was as serious as I used to think (and you still do), there simply is no way that other assets would be increasing in value as they have.

[youthathletics]

So far as Microsoft, that begets an entire discussion of the tax code. I (like you) rely on professionals to help make some time-sensitive capital investment decisions which invariably affect our year-end corporate tax. My suspicion is many tech companies game the tax code way more than the average company is able, though I also recall when I was a GE shareholder (no longer) that they seemed adept at those tricks, too.

Microsoft doesn't "game" the tax code. Microsoft writes the tax code. I wish I could do that.

I happen to be a believer in a flat sales tax, but man is that a long discussion.

If by "sales tax" you mean a tax that's levied any time a good or service is exchanged....no matter if it's business to business, or business to consumer? We've discussed this in great detail. It was my suggestion from a decade or so ago. Everyone here is 100% on board.

If you mean a "retail tax"? Hard pass.

Now as to our country's debt, I believe there will eventually be a settlement of debts in exchange for a lowering if not elimination of tariffs

I don't understand what you mean here. Tariffs have nothing directly to do with tariffs.

I have never understood how it is not a bigger deal to much smarter folks than I, but it isn't. Hence, my guess is there is always some 'out' which most people are not factoring in when we think the debt is practically insurmountable.

There is no "out". The "out" is to raise taxes to pay it off.. That, and a cut in services. Future generations will pay for our current bills.

As to my comment that there might be a settlement (I give you x if you give me y), I have heard this theory at some banker cocktail parties and nothing more, so who knows. The U.S. debt to China is $1.10 trillion as of October 2019.1 That's 26.7% of the $4.12 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $23 trillion national debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S. government itself. For China, we grant them lower tariff rates to wipe out debt...same with Japan and so forth.

Then we turn to the internal US holders of debt (mostly banks), and basically wipe that out by issuing a new hard currency. I don't know if any of this will happen, but I guess my thought is this: if it was as serious as I used to think (and you still do), there simply is no way that other assets would be increasing in value as they have.

Quite interesting conversation. We banter back and forth regularly about whether the debt is is 'really' a tangible hindrance that our children must pay back and will cripple them, or if it is just a bargaining chip in politics and the financial world.

[a fan]

Quite interesting conversation. We banter back and forth regularly about whether the debt is is 'really' a tangible hindrance that our children must pay back and will cripple them, or if it is just a bargaining chip in politics and the financial world.

I had thought we'd already agreed on the answer?

Otherwise, might as well give out Medicare for all, free college for all who can attend, and not bother raising taxes.

If debt's not a real thing, theres no reason to not double Federal spending.

[youthathletics]

Can't I just comment that it was interesting conversation . Man....you guys must be drinking Death Wish coffee with turbo shots lately....so feisty.

[a fan]

Yes, yes, I'm sorry YA. I just thought you and I had settled that issue.

It's a very interesting conversation. I'm just frustrated with government, and taking it out on you. That's not fair of me, and I apologize!

Have a great weekend!

[Typical Lax Dad]

So far as Microsoft, that begets an entire discussion of the tax code. I (like you) rely on professionals to help make some time-sensitive capital investment decisions which invariably affect our year-end corporate tax. My suspicion is many tech companies game the tax code way more than the average company is able, though I also recall when I was a GE shareholder (no longer) that they seemed adept at those tricks, too.

Microsoft doesn't "game" the tax code. Microsoft writes the tax code. I wish I could do that.

I happen to be a believer in a flat sales tax, but man is that a long discussion.

If by "sales tax" you mean a tax that's levied any time a good or service is exchanged....no matter if it's business to business, or business to consumer? We've discussed this in great detail. It was my suggestion from a decade or so ago. Everyone here is 100% on board.

If you mean a "retail tax"? Hard pass.

Now as to our country's debt, I believe there will eventually be a settlement of debts in exchange for a lowering if not elimination of tariffs

I don't understand what you mean here. Tariffs have nothing directly to do with tariffs.

I have never understood how it is not a bigger deal to much smarter folks than I, but it isn't. Hence, my guess is there is always some 'out' which most people are not factoring in when we think the debt is practically insurmountable.

There is no "out". The "out" is to raise taxes to pay it off.. That, and a cut in services. Future generations will pay for our current bills.

As to my comment that there might be a settlement (I give you x if you give me y), I have heard this theory at some banker cocktail parties and nothing more, so who knows. The U.S. debt to China is $1.10 trillion as of October 2019.1 That's 26.7% of the $4.12 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $23 trillion national debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S. government itself. For China, we grant them lower tariff rates to wipe out debt...same with Japan and so forth.

Then we turn to the internal US holders of debt (mostly banks), and basically wipe that out by issuing a new hard currency. I don't know if any of this will happen, but I guess my thought is this: if it was as serious as I used to think (and you still do), there simply is no way that other assets would be increasing in value as they have.

Quite interesting conversation. We banter back and forth regularly about whether the debt is is 'really' a tangible hindrance that our children must pay back and will cripple them, or if it is just a bargaining chip in politics and the financial world.

When you are deep in debt and default on loans, you don’t have a bargaining chip.

[youthathletics]

So far as Microsoft, that begets an entire discussion of the tax code. I (like you) rely on professionals to help make some time-sensitive capital investment decisions which invariably affect our year-end corporate tax. My suspicion is many tech companies game the tax code way more than the average company is able, though I also recall when I was a GE shareholder (no longer) that they seemed adept at those tricks, too.

Microsoft doesn't "game" the tax code. Microsoft writes the tax code. I wish I could do that.

I happen to be a believer in a flat sales tax, but man is that a long discussion.

If by "sales tax" you mean a tax that's levied any time a good or service is exchanged....no matter if it's business to business, or business to consumer? We've discussed this in great detail. It was my suggestion from a decade or so ago. Everyone here is 100% on board.

If you mean a "retail tax"? Hard pass.

Now as to our country's debt, I believe there will eventually be a settlement of debts in exchange for a lowering if not elimination of tariffs

I don't understand what you mean here. Tariffs have nothing directly to do with tariffs.

I have never understood how it is not a bigger deal to much smarter folks than I, but it isn't. Hence, my guess is there is always some 'out' which most people are not factoring in when we think the debt is practically insurmountable.

There is no "out". The "out" is to raise taxes to pay it off.. That, and a cut in services. Future generations will pay for our current bills.

As to my comment that there might be a settlement (I give you x if you give me y), I have heard this theory at some banker cocktail parties and nothing more, so who knows. The U.S. debt to China is $1.10 trillion as of October 2019.1 That's 26.7% of the $4.12 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $23 trillion national debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S. government itself. For China, we grant them lower tariff rates to wipe out debt...same with Japan and so forth.

Then we turn to the internal US holders of debt (mostly banks), and basically wipe that out by issuing a new hard currency. I don't know if any of this will happen, but I guess my thought is this: if it was as serious as I used to think (and you still do), there simply is no way that other assets would be increasing in value as they have.

Quite interesting conversation. We banter back and forth regularly about whether the debt is is 'really' a tangible hindrance that our children must pay back and will cripple them, or if it is just a bargaining chip in politics and the financial world.

When you are deep in debt and default on loans, you don’t have a bargaining chip.

Seems the US is more like Trump then we thought. In debt but funded by another country.

[Typical Lax Dad]

So far as Microsoft, that begets an entire discussion of the tax code. I (like you) rely on professionals to help make some time-sensitive capital investment decisions which invariably affect our year-end corporate tax. My suspicion is many tech companies game the tax code way more than the average company is able, though I also recall when I was a GE shareholder (no longer) that they seemed adept at those tricks, too.

Microsoft doesn't "game" the tax code. Microsoft writes the tax code. I wish I could do that.

I happen to be a believer in a flat sales tax, but man is that a long discussion.

If by "sales tax" you mean a tax that's levied any time a good or service is exchanged....no matter if it's business to business, or business to consumer? We've discussed this in great detail. It was my suggestion from a decade or so ago. Everyone here is 100% on board.

If you mean a "retail tax"? Hard pass.

Now as to our country's debt, I believe there will eventually be a settlement of debts in exchange for a lowering if not elimination of tariffs

I don't understand what you mean here. Tariffs have nothing directly to do with tariffs.

I have never understood how it is not a bigger deal to much smarter folks than I, but it isn't. Hence, my guess is there is always some 'out' which most people are not factoring in when we think the debt is practically insurmountable.

There is no "out". The "out" is to raise taxes to pay it off.. That, and a cut in services. Future generations will pay for our current bills.

As to my comment that there might be a settlement (I give you x if you give me y), I have heard this theory at some banker cocktail parties and nothing more, so who knows. The U.S. debt to China is $1.10 trillion as of October 2019.1 That's 26.7% of the $4.12 trillion in Treasury bills, notes, and bonds held by foreign countries. The rest of the $23 trillion national debt is owned by either the American people or by the U.S. government itself. For China, we grant them lower tariff rates to wipe out debt...same with Japan and so forth.

Then we turn to the internal US holders of debt (mostly banks), and basically wipe that out by issuing a new hard currency. I don't know if any of this will happen, but I guess my thought is this: if it was as serious as I used to think (and you still do), there simply is no way that other assets would be increasing in value as they have.

Quite interesting conversation. We banter back and forth regularly about whether the debt is is 'really' a tangible hindrance that our children must pay back and will cripple them, or if it is just a bargaining chip in politics and the financial world.

When you are deep in debt and default on loans, you don’t have a bargaining chip.

Seems the US is more like Trump then we thought. In debt but funded by another country.

Maybe when we default, Russia will bail us out.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fu ... credit.asp

[Peter Brown]

Seems the US is more like Trump then we thought. In debt but funded by another country.

Actually we owe most of the debt to our banks and to the Fed. Trump wishes he had borrowed from himself!

I think the out is simply defaulting. I’m not smart enough to know how that will be felt but there seems no way out at this juncture. A new currency would need to be issued backed by hard assets.

[MDlaxfan76]

Fascinating that ANYONE, (even those who think being educated is a negative), thinks that a debt default would not crush the US for generations.

Crazy.
But it's a fascinating window on the ethos out there these days.

After all, they've also been told that the tariffs are paid by the Chinese, not Americans.

[youthathletics]

Fascinating that ANYONE, (even those who think being educated is a negative), thinks that a debt default would not crush the US for generations.

Crazy.
But it's a fascinating window on the ethos out there these days.

Can you cite where anyone has said being educated is a negative?

[Peter Brown]

Fascinating that ANYONE, (even those who think being educated is a negative), thinks that a debt default would not crush the US for generations.

Crazy.
But it's a fascinating window on the ethos out there these days.

After all, they've also been told that the tariffs are paid by the Chinese, not Americans.

Again, to quote David Brooks (Likely a fellow traveler of yours): The anti-Trump echo chamber is becoming a mirror image of Trump himself — overwrought, uncalibrated and incapable of having an intelligent conversation about any complex policy problem.

I don't know what the fallout of a debt default would be, but nor do you.

What I know is we will figure it out; we always have and we always will (provided we are free enough to express thoughts and debate ideas...the opposite of what Democrats are toying with these days, as you dance with them).

Perhaps a default would be the best thing to ever happen to us as a government. Perhaps our fiat currency is indeed what has caused this unmanageable dilemna. Perhaps a hard currency (or the opposite, crypto) is what is needed. I don't know. What I do know is governments (federal state and local) spend too much. The more the state spends, the less free you are.

No one person is an expert on currency, even currency experts. Soros got one call correct, the pound, then wasted all of his profits on the Russian ruble. And he is a supposed expert. Let's see how this plays out. My hunch is we default to ourselves and exchange debt owed to foreigners into trade favors.

[Peter Brown]

Fascinating that ANYONE, (even those who think being educated is a negative), thinks that a debt default would not crush the US for generations.

Crazy.
But it's a fascinating window on the ethos out there these days.

Can you cite where anyone has said being educated is a negative?

MD thinks I am 'anti-education' because I don't reflexively bow at the altar of graduate degrees; my personal ethos is grit is more valuable than a degree (therefore to him, I am 'anti-education' ).

I am, I hope, disposed to hearing multiple ideas and thoughts, and I don't like to shut the door to any idea until I have fully heard the defense of it.

The anti-Trump echo chamber is becoming a mirror image of Trump himself — overwrought, uncalibrated and incapable of having an intelligent conversation about any complex policy problem

[MDlaxfan76]

Fascinating that ANYONE, (even those who think being educated is a negative), thinks that a debt default would not crush the US for generations.

Crazy.
But it's a fascinating window on the ethos out there these days.

Can you cite where anyone has said being educated is a negative?

Actually, several of done so, but I was referring specifically to a recent diatribe by PB.

[MDlaxfan76]

Fascinating that ANYONE, (even those who think being educated is a negative), thinks that a debt default would not crush the US for generations.

Crazy.
But it's a fascinating window on the ethos out there these days.

After all, they've also been told that the tariffs are paid by the Chinese, not Americans.

Again, to quote David Brooks (Likely a fellow traveler of yours): The anti-Trump echo chamber is becoming a mirror image of Trump himself — overwrought, uncalibrated and incapable of having an intelligent conversation about any complex policy problem.

I don't know what the fallout of a debt default would be, but nor do you.

What I know is we will figure it out; we always have and we always will (provided we are free enough to express thoughts and debate ideas...the opposite of what Democrats are toying with these days, as you dance with them).

Perhaps a default would be the best thing to ever happen to us as a government. Perhaps our fiat currency is indeed what has caused this unmanageable dilemna. Perhaps a hard currency (or the opposite, crypto) is what is needed. I don't know. What I do know is governments (federal state and local) spend too much. The more the state spends, the less free you are.

No one person is an expert on currency, even currency experts. Soros got one call correct, the pound, then wasted all of his profits on the Russian ruble. And he is a supposed expert. Let's see how this plays out. My hunch is we default to ourselves and exchange debt owed to foreigners into trade favors.

I don't???

Nah, having good credit is of no value.

Show me a country that has defaulted on its debt that doesn't take generations to recover, if at all.

We're talking world depression, not just the US, if the US is no longer a trusted guarantor of its debt and if there is a massive contraction in money supply.

Yeah, I get it that you don't "bow down to the altar of graduate degrees" (as if anyone suggested such), but you are immensely prone to believe whatever nutcase notion fits into your 'theology'.

The one thing you say above that makes a shred of sense is your admission that you don't know.
I have no idea if that's because you failed economics or never worked in the markets or who knows why.
But you simply don't bring either credibility or logic to the discussion.

That said, it's fascinating.

The almost humorous aspect is that what you seem to be suggesting is immensely anti-capitalistic.

[a fan]

Again, to quote David Brooks (Likely a fellow traveler of yours): The anti-Trump echo chamber is becoming a mirror image of Trump himself — overwrought, uncalibrated and incapable of having an intelligent conversation about any complex policy problem.

I don't know what the fallout of a debt default would be, but nor do you.

What I know is we will figure it out; we always have and we always will (provided we are free enough to express thoughts and debate ideas...the opposite of what Democrats are toying with these days, as you dance with them).

Perhaps a default would be the best thing to ever happen to us as a government.

So your solution is to not pay our debts to America's business partners?

No wonder you like Trump. "Stick it to your business partners" is a just another tool in the toolbox for both you and Trump, eh?

Neat.