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tech37
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by tech37 »

a fan wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:09 pm
tech37 wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:48 am
a fan wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:02 am Let us not forget that when Trump took office, we had a nuclear agreement with Iran, negotiated by the Obama administration along with our closest allies. Countries from all over the world came together to negotiate that agreement that put a lid on Iran’s nuclear program.

The wise course would have been to stick with that nuclear agreement, enforce its provisions, and use that diplomatic channel with Iran to address a wide range of other concerns, including their support of terrorism.
-Bernie Sanders.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is what it looks like when you have a leader who has an IQ above room temperature. Put the Iran nuclear deal in your pocket. Both sides move forward with a little more trust. THEN you negotiate for the terrorism stuff. So obvious that a guy like me came up with this same solution when Trump reneged. And no, this isn't snobbery. This is saying: this path was so obvious, that a dumb*ss with zero foreign policy experience came up with the solution all by himself. And here is Bernie giving the same solution a year later.
Your hindsight certainly is perfect a fan! :lol:

Oh BTW, so is Bernie's.
Still struggling with what the word hindsight means.
a fan wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:20 pm
tech37 wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:20 pm JCPOA was a temporary attempt to stop Iran from getting the bomb
You and old salt say this as if we negotiated for Iran to not eat fish on Tuesdays. You wave it away as if it's some trifle. A pointless concession. "It stopped Iran from getting a nuke...no big deal." As if we don't care one way or another if they have one.


You both need to stop doing that, because it makes you both sound either bitterly partisan, or epically stupid. And we all know that neither of you are anywhere close to stupid.

Trump killed the deal because Obama signed it. You know it. I know it. The world knows it. Petty, grammar school diplomacy, enacted by a child. Stop defending him.

As I stated before, all Trump had to do was keep the deal in place, and threaten new sanctions over the missile development. The funny part is that both you are conceding that this was the obvious thing to do....by ignoring this notion, and doubling down.

We've entered the tech-oldsalt vortex where no matter what, Trump is a genius, and Obama can't tie his own shoelaces. :lol: ;)
Where I stated "as I stated before" refers to postings at the old water cooler on the subject, as Trump pulled out of the deal.

And, obviously, this is the path advocated by all the other signees of the JCPOA.

But the great news is, you and Trump are way too smart to do that. So we avoided Obama's yuge mistake, and it's smelling like a rose over in Iran.

So yeah, great job.
:lol: Don't buy it! WC my butt... Trump announced withdrawal May 2018... that gave you an entire year to devise your position.
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old salt
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

"John Sipher
@john_sipher
I wish people actually understood Benghazi. It’s become a meme. Almost everyone who references it has no clue what they are talking about. All these situations are different. Comparing Baghdad and Benghazi facilities is comparing the Maginot line to a forest cabin."
...& it's totally irrelevant that we passed up previous opportunities to take out Soleimani.
Different times, different exposures & vulnerabilities, different relations with the Iraqi govt & population.
Entirely different situations.

As Brett McGurk told us, Soleimani stopped targeting US forces in 2011, until he resumed it a few months ago.

This was not likely Trump's idea. More likely, he just approved it.
Last edited by old salt on Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
seacoaster
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by seacoaster »

John Stevenson, an IISS senior fellow, in the Times today:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/04/opin ... e=Homepage

"The targeted killing of Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani and four others in a precision strike by an MQ-9 Reaper drone at Baghdad International Airport was an impressive display of American military prowess. And it liquidated a destabilizing figure: The general was the commander of the Quds Force, which is responsible for Iran’s covert and extraterritorial military operations. In the scheme of things, he had it coming. Yet killing him made little strategic sense for the United States. In some ways, the most significant thing about his death is what it shows about the breakdown of American foreign policymaking.

President Trump ordered the strike directly, prompted by the death of an American contractor on Dec. 27 in a rocket attack by Kataib Hezbollah, an Iranian-sponsored Iraqi Shia militia. Mr. Trump did not bother to consult congressional leaders. As with his other displays of martial fiat, his immediate impulse was probably to shock the liberal domestic audience, vicariously make himself feel tough, and assert raw executive power by going around the normal channels of decision making.

Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama had considered taking out General Suleimani but rejected it — not for lack of nerve, but for fear of undue escalation and an unnecessary war with Iran. The fundamental facts on the ground have not changed, and in the kind of robust interagency, national security decision-making process that the National Security Council staff is supposed to supervise, such concerns would have been systematically raised, dissected and discussed, and a consensus reached to inform presidential action. No such process seems to have occurred here.

The Pentagon has claimed, facilely, that General Suleimani was hit because the Revolutionary Guard was planning attacks on American targets in the region. But in a proper interagency review, the intelligence community could have pointed out that “decapitation” is a patently unreliable means of pre-emption — particularly when the organization in question is the Revolutionary Guard, an integral part of a well-honed security state with considerable depth of command talent.

In addition, the State Department might have noted that next to Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, General Suleimani was arguably the country’s most powerful and venerated figure, and that when the target was such a senior and esteemed official, his countrymen were likely to perceive his killing as outright assassination. The State Department would also have emphasized that assassination was a flagrant casus belli, or provocation for war.

Had the Justice Department argued that targeted killing is distinct from assassination, which has long been proscribed by executive order, a raft of other government agencies might have noted that perceptions matter, perhaps anticipating Mr. Khamenei’s response to the deadly strike: “His departure to God does not end his path or his mission, but a forceful revenge awaits the criminals who have his blood and the blood of the other martyrs last night on their hands.”

The National Security Council would have undoubtedly asked the intelligence community for a detailed assessment of Iran’s possible responses to the strike. Analysts would have underscored the inevitability of lethal attacks on Americans and American interests: terrorist attacks on embassies or other civilian or military facilities in the Middle East and farther afield, military escalation on the ground in Syria or Iraq, cyberattacks, the closing of the Strait of Hormuz, Hezbollah attacks on Israel, further operations targeting Gulf States’ oil infrastructure, and accelerating movement toward nuclear breakout.

Drilling deeper, intelligence analysts could have stressed the possibility that the strike on General Suleimani might encourage a new strain of transnational terrorism. While acknowledging that the Lebanese Shiite militia Hezbollah, Iran’s proxy in the Middle East, has largely resisted venturing outside the Middle East for the past 25 years, they would have stressed that it is considered the most capable nonstate armed group in the world, the A Team to Al Qaeda’s B Team — a force that was shaped and nurtured by General Suleimani himself.

What’s more, such an official would have warned, Hezbollah has fiercely demonstrated its willingness to prosecute Iranian interests, against Israel and in Syria. If Iran so asked, the assessment might have continued, Hezbollah would turn outward, as it did in 1992, when it bombed the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires and killed 29, and in 1994, when it bombed a Jewish community center there and killed 85.

An appropriately functioning National Security Council would have asked: How does this fit in the administration’s overall foreign policy?

The State Department would have underlined that a chief objective of the administration’s Iran policy, including its withdrawal from the Iran nuclear deal in May 2018, was to roll back Iran’s nefarious regional activities — in particular, intervention in the Syrian civil war, political intrigue in Iraq and support for the Houthis in Yemen — and that General Suleimani oversaw them.

In response, the C.I.A. would have observed that taking out the general would deprive Iranian moderates, like President Hassan Rouhani and Foreign Minister Javad Zarif, of any leeway for compromise, enabling hard-liners to co-opt them. Thus, the agency would have reasoned, the killing of a hard-line national hero would most likely dissolve any hope — dim even beforehand — that Mr. Trump’s “maximum pressure” approach would move the Iranians to renegotiate the nuclear deal; it might instead stir vengeance in the Iranian leadership, which would intensify rather than subdue those activities in his name.

Had there been a distinguished senior career State Department officer on hand — there used to be many, but their numbers have dwindled in this administration — he or she might even have provided the big strategic picture: that the Trump administration’s one major contribution to American foreign policy has been to refocus attention on great-power competition. And while Russia and China are great powers, Iran really isn’t one. Pick your fights, they’d have said.

A discreet official, of course, would have elided the fact that Mr. Obama’s rebalance to Asia and diplomatic approach to Iran appreciated this reality, cutting straight to Mr. Trump’s own antipathy to committing military resources to the Middle East. But that official might well have commented, for emphasis, that the former national security adviser, John Bolton, was dismissed in part over his hawkish insistence on coercive regime change in Tehran.

That adviser could have argued that for an administration looking to manage great-power competition, it is patently illogical to elevate a regional spoiler to great-power status, antagonistically martyr one of its leaders, gratuitously invigorate nonstate militants, and set the United States on a path toward war in a region it had hoped to calm.

And a really enterprising confidant might have intimated that a sensational military operation could scan as a cynical effort to divert attention from impeachment, as well as an example of the same brand of self-interested autocracy with which the House’s articles of impeachment charge the president.

It seems like none of these points were carefully considered, revealing the abject dysfunction and deterioration of the national security process under Mr. Trump. The killing of General Suleimani arose outside of any coherent policy context, and without adequate contemplation of near- or long-term strategic consequences. Mr. Trump’s move looks like either an impetuous act of self-indulgence or, somewhat more probable, a calculated attempt to bury his domestic political troubles. Whatever the precise reason, the act itself is irreversible, and will have serious consequences — precisely why it merited the systematic deliberation that it clearly did not receive."

The news from Tehran and elsewhere in Iran sure doesn't suggest that the assassination will result in the regime change about which Bolton dreamed and for which he angled. So far, it looks like we killed a bad guy; literally everything else is up in the air. We need Jared to sort this out.
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old salt
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

^^^^
in the above NYT OpEd:
The fundamental facts on the ground have not changed,
That's absurd.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Trump knows more than the Generals
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:32 pm ^^^^
in the above NYT OpEd:
The fundamental facts on the ground have not changed,
That's absurd.
What is fundamental?
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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old salt
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:34 pm Trump knows more than the Generals
The Generals probably suggested it. Just because it didn't leak, that doesn't mean that it was soley Trump's idea.
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old salt
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:35 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:32 pm ^^^^
in the above NYT OpEd:
The fundamental facts on the ground have not changed,
That's absurd.
What is fundamental?
It's still sand.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by a fan »

Yep. That's when that post showed up, tech. If you don't remember discussing it on the WC, ok.

How's your and Trump's path working there, bud? Thousands more Americans sent over to get hit by IED's and PTSD. We still don't have inspectors in the places you were whining about. They're back to working on their nukes. And it's more dangerous to be an American overseas than it's every been.

Nice job! Really thinking this through. A+ job.

Got an answer for me as to how it is you think we're going to get regime change in Iran without a Civil War yet? Whoops. Forgot about that part. Let's just make 80 million very religious people desperate, and watch what happens, right? Shoot first, worry about any kind or end game when it's too late.

All you know is that Obama is wrong, and every poster is here is an idiot for questioning what Trump does. And when anyone asks you what we should do? You bail. Because you don't have any answers. All you know is that guys like me are naive and stupid for questioning Trump's policies.

Neat. Great contributions. Excellent discussion.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:39 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:34 pm Trump knows more than the Generals
The Generals probably suggested it. Just because it didn't leak, that doesn't mean that it was soley Trump's idea.
Who said it was
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

old salt wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:40 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:35 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:32 pm ^^^^
in the above NYT OpEd:
The fundamental facts on the ground have not changed,
That's absurd.
What is fundamental?
It's still sand.
What’s fundamental......in your opinion... :lol:
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
seacoaster
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by seacoaster »

Another view, via a twitter ramble, this time from a Brookings guy:

https://twitter.com/shadihamid/status/1 ... 9432878080

"1. Initially I was on the fence, but the more I consider different scenarios, the more the original alarmist takes seem even more wrong than I first suspected. The WW3 stuff is obviously silly, but even the risk of "mere" war seems increasingly unlikely.

2. Of course, this doesn't mean killing Soleimani was good or right. But the evidence that this will lead to significant escalation seems lacking. Iran will likely escalate and retaliate in some way, but that's not the same as war. Moreover, Iran has *already* been escalating

3. Some of the discourse around Trump bringing us to war has been myopic and ahistorical. Assad and Iran have been waging war on Syrians for quite some time. The war, in short, has already been happening—and it has cost half a million Syrians their lives. Let's not forget that

4. What's striking to me is that Middle East experts, including (importantly) those from the region, have tended to be *less* alarmist. There's probably a good reason for this—they're less fixated on Trump and less likely to be US-centric in their analysis

5. It seems fair to assume that one's view of Trump will have some not insignificant impact on how they interpret the fallout from Soleimani's killing. There's nothing wrong with this per se and there's no way to correct for it, but we should at least be aware of that

6. The left is in a bind, and there's a tension between two impulses. There's anti-imperialism and a (justified) skepticism toward US military action. Then there's a longstanding left tradition of solidarity with the victims of repression and with populations rather than regime

7. Too much of the analysis on the left seems to have erred on the side of anti-imperialist critique with insufficient attention to what Iran has actually already been doing—at tremendous human cost to Syrians and to civilian populations in the region more generally

8. The 2000s, in part because of the Iraq war and the Bush administration's appropriation of democracy promotion, much of the left has become even more uncomfortable than it already was with US "leadership" in the Middle East. This is where the US centrism becomes a problem

9. Not everything is about us. And not everything is primarily a question of whether the US is, or isn't, using military force. Not everything is about repeating Iraq. Context matters, and understanding what's actually going on in the Middle East matters

10. The Bush administration used to talk about "moral clarity." The left should be more concerned with *moral consistency,* but our obsession with America's original sin and sometimes even its supposedly inherent badness distorts our not only analysis but our moral assessments

11. There's no moral equivalence between the US & Iran. The US has done terrible things in the Middle East. That's clear. But to suggest that we're at the rarified level of the deliberate and systematic mass murder that Soleimani helped orchestrate isn't just wrong; it's silly"
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by a fan »

That's all great, seacoaster. But no one is discussing the end game.

Can anyone here paint the picture of what "winning" looks like with Iran and the US?
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old salt
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

OK second guessers -- here's why we didn't eliminate Soleimani sooner & how the situation is different now.

Brett McGurk, yesterday on MSNBC , told us why. Soleimani stopped killing our troops in 2011, when we withdrew from Iraq.
When we went back to Iraq (late) in 2014 (at Iraq's desperate invitation), Soleimani needed us to defeat ISIS.

Now that the Caliphate has been dismantled & ISIS run to ground, Soleimani wanted us to leave again.
He concluded that the PMF (in Iraq) + Assad/Hezbollah/Russia/SDF (in Syria) could handle ISIS.

The US was again an obstacle, with our presence in NE Syria & Iraq.
We were blocking his Iranian crescent from Iran to Lebanon.
So he resumed his harassing attacks against US forces in Iraq, in hopes of prompting our withdrawal again.
It was also a way to escalate responses to sanctions.

This comes at a time when the headless, corrupt Iraqi govt is heavily influenced by Iran, yet threatened by massive domestic protests against the corruption & Iranian influence.

Soleimani also understood that Trump is anxious to drawdown, resents US aid to Iraq/Syria & wants to withdraw.

Key is what the Iraqi Parliament decides re. an ongoing US presence & the willingness & ability of the Iraqi govt to protect US diplomats, contractors, & military enablers from the PMF Shia militias. The future of Iraq is very much in play. If they show Trump the door, he'll leave & there's no assurance we'll ever return.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by 3rdPersonPlural »

old salt wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:41 pm OK second guessers -- here's why we didn't eliminate Soleimani sooner & how the situation is different now.

Brett McGurk, yesterday on MSNBC , told us why. Soleimani stopped killing our troops in 2011, when we withdrew from Iraq.
When we went back to Iraq (late) in 2014 (at Iraq's desperate invitation), Soleimani needed us to defeat ISIS.

Now that the Caliphate has been dismantled & ISIS run to ground, Soleimani wanted us to leave again.
He concluded that the PMF (in Iraq) + Assad/Hezbollah/Russia/SDF (in Syria) could handle ISIS.

The US was again an obstacle, with our presence in NE Syria & Iraq.
We were blocking his Iranian crescent from Iran to Lebanon.
So he resumed his harassing attacks against US forces in Iraq, in hopes of prompting our withdrawal again.
It was also a way to escalate responses to sanctions.

This comes at a time when the headless, corrupt Iraqi govt is heavily influenced by Iran, yet threatened by massive domestic protests against the corruption & Iranian influence.

Soleimani also understood that Trump is anxious to drawdown, resents US aid to Iraq/Syria & wants to withdraw.

Key is what the Iraqi Parliament decides re. an ongoing US presence & the willingness & ability of the Iraqi govt to protect US diplomats, contractors, & military enablers from the PMF Shia militias. The future of Iraq is very much in play. If they show Trump the door, he'll leave & there's no assurance we'd ever return.
So what you're saying is that:

We couldn't finish our Iraqi venture by installing a nice Secular leader.

Soleimani helped us fight the Sunni ISIS but disengaged when he was comfortable that his borders were safe.

Soleimani finally won the battle for influence. Because he had more soldiers in Iraq than anyone else. Armed by us, BTW.

So the master of Middle Eastern sectarian relations and politics (Trump) decided to eliminate Soleimani? With a plan to stabilize the ME or get us out of this mess?

Or was it that Intel said he'd be at the airport and he is a bad man, and Trump jumped?
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by seacoaster »

a fan wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:38 pm That's all great, seacoaster. But no one is discussing the end game.

Can anyone here paint the picture of what "winning" looks like with Iran and the US?
I’m just collecting information from different sources:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... ssion=true
Last edited by seacoaster on Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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old salt
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by old salt »

3rdPersonPlural wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:55 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:41 pm OK second guessers -- here's why we didn't eliminate Soleimani sooner & how the situation is different now.

Brett McGurk, yesterday on MSNBC , told us why. Soleimani stopped killing our troops in 2011, when we withdrew from Iraq.
When we went back to Iraq (late) in 2014 (at Iraq's desperate invitation), Soleimani needed us to defeat ISIS.

Now that the Caliphate has been dismantled & ISIS run to ground, Soleimani wanted us to leave again.
He concluded that the PMF (in Iraq) + Assad/Hezbollah/Russia/SDF (in Syria) could handle ISIS.

The US was again an obstacle, with our presence in NE Syria & Iraq.
We were blocking his Iranian crescent from Iran to Lebanon.
So he resumed his harassing attacks against US forces in Iraq, in hopes of prompting our withdrawal again.
It was also a way to escalate responses to sanctions.

This comes at a time when the headless, corrupt Iraqi govt is heavily influenced by Iran, yet threatened by massive domestic protests against the corruption & Iranian influence.

Soleimani also understood that Trump is anxious to drawdown, resents US aid to Iraq/Syria & wants to withdraw.

Key is what the Iraqi Parliament decides re. an ongoing US presence & the willingness & ability of the Iraqi govt to protect US diplomats, contractors, & military enablers from the PMF Shia militias. The future of Iraq is very much in play. If they show Trump the door, he'll leave & there's no assurance we'd ever return.
So what you're saying is that:

We couldn't finish our Iraqi venture by installing a nice Secular leader.
Our experiment in introducing representative electoral democracy, into a ME tribal society, in an artificial nation, never accomplished that, despite our best efforts. NeoCon lesson learned.

Soleimani helped us fight the Sunni ISIS but disengaged when he was comfortable that his borders were safe.
Pretty much. Or you could say we fought separately but concurrently (at a safe distance) to defeat IS. We even provided air support to his Iraqi Shia militias.

Soleimani finally won the battle for influence. Because he had more soldiers in Iraq than anyone else. Armed by us, BTW.
Yes, because we left in 2011. His militias were primarily armed by Iran, The ISF uses our stuff (up to & including F-16's now).

So the master of Middle Eastern sectarian relations and politics (Trump) decided to eliminate Soleimani? With a plan to stabilize the ME or get us out of this mess? Fullfilling a promise of a disproportionate response to Iran (or proxy) killing an American. Trump considers Iraq & Syria a liability & lost cause, which can only continue to bleed us. He's doing everything he can to avoid getting sucked into nation building. We're concentrating our enduring forces in a few joint host nation bases in Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE & SA (temporarily). He wants us out of Syria asap & our presence in Iraq is contingent on the Iraqis protecting them. The troops headed that way are for force protection from Iranian proxy reprisals & escalatory attacks.

Or was it that Intel said he'd be at the airport and he is a bad man, and Trump jumped?
It was a ripe target of opportunity & the promised disproportionate response to the killing of an American.
1 Reaper, firing 4 Hellfires, dispatched 8 terrorist souls to paradise, including Iran's most effective & charismatic leader, his Iraqi PMF leader. plus the leaders of Iraqi PMF component Shia militias. The shot was worth taking (imho).
Last edited by old salt on Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tech37
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by tech37 »

a fan wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:45 pm Yep. That's when that post showed up, tech. If you don't remember discussing it on the WC, ok.

How's your and Trump's path working there, bud? Thousands more Americans sent over to get hit by IED's and PTSD. We still don't have inspectors in the places you were whining about. They're back to working on their nukes. And it's more dangerous to be an American overseas than it's every been.

Nice job! Really thinking this through. A+ job.

Got an answer for me as to how it is you think we're going to get regime change in Iran without a Civil War yet? Whoops. Forgot about that part. Let's just make 80 million very religious people desperate, and watch what happens, right? Shoot first, worry about any kind or end game when it's too late.

All you know is that Obama is wrong, and every poster is here is an idiot for questioning what Trump does. And when anyone asks you what we should do? You bail. Because you don't have any answers. All you know is that guys like me are naive and stupid for questioning Trump's policies.

Neat. Great contributions. Excellent discussion.
No sweat a fan... just breaking your stones :D

"you bail"... not really, I just realize there's no use continuing to quibble minutia when we disagree on the big picture. In other words, I try not to "beat a dead horse" when you seem to enjoy that sort of thing ;)
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by a fan »

You've never said what the big picture goal is. Not once. I'd bet we have the same big picture goal.

Care to share it? What's your big picture goal with Iran?


Not trying to beat a dead horse. Simply trying to have a conversation.
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Re: The Politics of National Security

Post by youthathletics »

a fan wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:38 pm That's all great, seacoaster. But no one is discussing the end game.

Can anyone here paint the picture of what "winning" looks like with Iran and the US?
I honestly believe there is zero way to win in the ME, only calm tempers, if only for a short time. The only thing that will create a win-win for the entire world WRT to the chaotic ME is either (i) everyone converts to Islam and even that would be hardly enough, (ii) the ME gains multiple leaders that promote status quo on land/religious freedom on boundaries and call some type of truce, or (iii) the oil purchases from the major 3 dries up (no one needs them any longer) in this region, forcing them to adapt to more manufacturing, hydroponics, and desalinization opportunities. Our global dependence on oil just seems like we are enabling their behavior.

Like any counselor of shrink will tell you...you can not change the behavior of someone unwilling to change, you can only control and change your own behavior. The rub, for as many things as we have tried passive and aggressive (collectively with allies) these countries always seem to just want to fight like someone stole their ball on the school yard (minimized analogy for effect).

We still need a presence, if for no other reason to keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
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