Orange Duce

[MDlaxfan76]

I think six guys came forward to testify against Gallagher. Seems like pretty many, though I don't know how big the platoon was.

Are those guys mutinous cowards? Certainly possible.

But I'd be inclined to believe them before I'd believe Bone Spurs and a bunch of Fox News Bots.

Do you know enough to substitute your judgement for the combat vets on the court panel who heard the 6 (not 30+) accusers relate the specific details of their accusations, & defend them under cross examination ?

Rather than cowards, might they have held a grudge against a Chief who was hard on them & that some of their accusations were shared hearsay which amplified each other.

There was obvious dysfunction in that platoon. Gallager's accusers were less experienced, junior members who chafed under his leadership style.
The LT platoon commander did not share the accusers assessment of Gallagher. The LT staged the infamous picture with the platoon, to commemorate Gallagher's re-enlistment ceremony, which he had just administered. Gallagher was selected for promotion & submitted for a Silver Star. The 6 junior SEALs who were his accusers were not a happy crew, but possible poor leadership is not murder or a war crime.

"poor leadership" results in "psychopath" and "evil"???
Seriously?
How many SEALs are you saying were lying under oath? 6?

And you believe Gallagher instead?

[DMac]

Would you have been OK with IMPOTUS invalidating that action/discipline as well?

That's the problem, had the media let the military folks handle the whole thing, I'm confident they would have made the right decision, whatever that might have been (but, of course, they couldn't do that with the dirty little story...in their eyes...they got their hands on).
As for your question, yes, I would have been fine with Gallagher not being convicted for posing with the unit's kill. Unless, of course, EVERY OTHER PERSON IN THE PHOTO had been convicted as well. They had to do something, thanks to the media.

[ggait]

Do you know enough to substitute your judgement for the combat vets on the court panel who heard the 6 (not 30+) accusers relate the specific details of their accusations, & defend them under cross examination ?

I respect juries. The jury did what the jury did. I have not tried to investigate the details of Gallagher's case (which would obviously be impossible for me or you to do).

But, with good reason, these days you have to assume that anything coming out of Bone Spur's mouth is a lie. It is quite problematic, obviously, when POTUS completely lacks credibility on everything. On Gallagher and on anything else.

Doubly so when the issue at hand has been fanned as a cause celebre by the Fox News bots. Triple-ey so when Gallagher and his cute wife appear to be campaigning for a future career in conservative media. Like the recent appearance at Mar-a-Lago.

So one one side you have Trump, the Hannity crowd, and Gallagher's lawyer.

On the other side, you have the six SEALs in the squad, Adm. Green (SEAL commander), Adm. Gilday (chief of naval operations), and Richard Spencer (secretary of the Navy). Plus respected retired military like Gens. Barry McCaffrey and Jack Keane saying that Trump should butt the fork out of internal discipline and should let the Navy/SEALs deal with their own.

Easiest call possible who to believe.

Sheesh.

[MDlaxfan76]

MD,
Take an oath. You have never done it - grow some balls - a fight in a door room is way different then getting your arse shot at. I said, i do NOT agree with him period. I did SAY F$ing rules of engagement are stupid - you smart people create them.

Huh?
I've never taken an oath???
"grow some balls"???

How about you just respond to my question tough guy?
You were sarcastic with TLD as if he was some sort of softy because he knows some Seals and wouldn't ever think of them as cowards???
What the heck is that about?

This is Gallagher calling his fellow Seals cowards...surely you don't agree that he's likely correct about them?
If so, why wouldn't you believe them, not him?

I'm happy to discuss "rules of engagement", but I'm quite likely not as qualified to do so as perhaps you are, much less the "smart people" in the military who DO create them and enforce them.

But that discussion isn't what these guys are saying about Gallagher. They're claiming far more than simply crossing some lines of engagement in a situation in which it's their life or the life of their teammates on the line. Far more.

On that discussion of rules of engagement, though, I do think it's important to have clear understandings of what is expected in various situations. I'd want the warriors with actual experience of those situations setting those rules, and enforcing those rules, as long as the overall ethic is to achieve objectives with as limited loss of life as can be reasonably done. My understanding is that our volunteer, professional military does that as well or better than any other military in the world. And at the same time is the most lethal military in the world.

The "tough guy" was in response to your insulting bluster, LandM, yet repeated avoidance of a straightforward question.

Go ahead and double down with the personal insults, but it doesn't in any way make your case.

I do quite agree with cradle's concerns about the multiple deployments. Sounds right to me.

Maybe I need to ask a different question than whether you're ok with anyone calling these 6 SEALs cowards...how about, do you think there's any line, any rule of engagement, that the military should train and enforce? If yes, where's that line?

[MDlaxfan76]

Do you know enough to substitute your judgement for the combat vets on the court panel who heard the 6 (not 30+) accusers relate the specific details of their accusations, & defend them under cross examination ?

I respect juries. The jury did what the jury did. I have not tried to investigate the details of Gallagher's case (which would obviously be impossible for me or you to do).

But, with good reason, these days you have to assume that anything coming out of Bone Spur's mouth is a lie. It is quite problematic, obviously, when POTUS completely lacks credibility on everything. On Gallagher and on anything else.

Doubly so when the issue at hand has been fanned as a cause celebre by the Fox News bots. Triple-ey so when Gallagher and his cute wife appear to be campaigning for a future career in conservative media. Like the recent appearance at Mar-a-Lago.

So one one side you have Trump, the Hannity crowd, and Gallagher's lawyer.

On the other side, you have the six SEALs in the squad, Adm. Green (SEAL commander), Adm. Gilday (chief of naval operations), and Richard Spencer (secretary of the Navy). Plus respected retired military like Gens. Barry McCaffrey and Jack Keane saying that Trump should butt the fork out of internal discipline and should let the Navy/SEALs deal with their own.

Easiest call possible who to believe.

Sheesh.

+1
Seems obvious, but everything is topsy turvy in Trumpworld.

[DMac]

You need to drop the psychopath and evil stuff and see it for what it is, MDlax. It's nothing more than exaggerations coming from some disgruntled team members who apparently don't like the guy.
Here's what some others think of him:

As a SEAL Eddie would continue to excel, rising not only in rank but as a true leader. He became lead sniper, lead platoon medic, lead breacher, fire team leader, master training specialist, squad leader and eventually, lead petty officer where he was in charge of entire SEAL platoon deployed to the Middle East. He would be recognized by the Navy for his leadership, given the award of Sailor of the Year and Sailor of the Quarter – titles granted to superior and dedicated professionals within their commands who best represent the Navy.

Among his numerous deployments with the SEALs Chief Gallagher was again recognized for valor in combat, being twice awarded the Bronze Star with V for Valor. In one instance, under enemy fire yet again and from multiple positions, Eddie Gallagher cleared nearly 100 stalls in a bazaar in Afghanistan, secured a rooftop position, and effectively freed a friendly element that was pinned down by enemy fire. His “courageous and decisive actions silenced the enemy fire…and “by his extraordinary guidance, zealous initiative and total dedication to duty, Petty Officer Gallagher reflected great credit upon himself, and upheld the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.”

Chief Gallagher has undergone a total of eight tours of duty, six as an elite special forces operator serving on the front lines of combat. He is the consummate and professional warfighter, earning medal after medal for leadership and bravery in battle. In total Chief Gallagher has earned the Bronze star with V for Valor twice, Meritorious Unit commendation, Presidential Unit citation two Navy Commendation medals, three Navy and Marine Corps Achievement medals, and four good conduct awards. His last deployment in 2017 to Iraq where he was tasked with leading his platoon to clear ISIS from Mosul, Chief Gallagher was awarded #1 SEAL Chief and #1 SEAL platoon.

Chief Gallagher’s record and reputation as an elite warrior is rivaled only by a few men who have served by his side as special warfare operators and heroes who have gone before him. He does not seek recognition for his work, but his service demands the respect and honor owed to the special breed of warrior ready to answer our Nation’s call.

19 Year Service Member

Joined July 28th 1999

Marine Corps
Medic/Corpsman for platoon
7 month Combat Deployment – 2000 Deployment – Mediterranean/Kosovo
Sea Service

https://justiceforeddie.com/chief-gallagher-biography/

[ggait]

LandM wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:51 am
ggait - that is why you are a lawyer - you create the rules but do not have to follow them.

Yup -- that law degree is so awesome. I always drive 30 over the limit. Haven't paid taxes in decades. Support myself by robbing banks. I'm pretty much El Chapo, but without the prison time!

The only thing that could possibly be better than a law degree would have been if I had played college football. Apparently that would give me a license for unlimited wind bag humble (barely) bragging about how generally awesome I am....

Happy New Year. Hope you are enjoying the snow up in Telluride!

[old salt]

I think six guys came forward to testify against Gallagher. Seems like pretty many, though I don't know how big the platoon was.

Are those guys mutinous cowards? Certainly possible.

But I'd be inclined to believe them before I'd believe Bone Spurs and a bunch of Fox News Bots.

Do you know enough to substitute your judgement for the combat vets on the court panel who heard the 6 (not 30+) accusers relate the specific details of their accusations, & defend them under cross examination ?

Rather than cowards, might they have held a grudge against a Chief who was hard on them & that some of their accusations were shared hearsay which amplified each other.

There was obvious dysfunction in that platoon. Gallager's accusers were less experienced, junior members who chafed under his leadership style.
The LT platoon commander did not share the accusers assessment of Gallagher. The LT staged the infamous picture with the platoon, to commemorate Gallagher's re-enlistment ceremony, which he had just administered. Gallagher was selected for promotion & submitted for a Silver Star. The 6 junior SEALs who were his accusers were not a happy crew, but possible poor leadership is not murder or a war crime.

"poor leadership" results in "psychopath" and "evil"???
Seriously?
How many SEALs are you saying were lying under oath? 6?

And you believe Gallagher instead?

I don't know how many, if any, were lying. The combat vets on the Court panel who heard them did not find them credible enough to convict.
I think it's now down to 4. I just read (in the LA or NY Times) that 2 of the 6 accusers in the NCIS videos were not called to testify by the defense.
They were not under oath in the NCIS videos which have been leaked.

[old salt]

Do you know enough to substitute your judgement for the combat vets on the court panel who heard the 6 (not 30+) accusers relate the specific details of their accusations, & defend them under cross examination ?

I respect juries. The jury did what the jury did. I have not tried to investigate the details of Gallagher's case (which would obviously be impossible for me or you to do).

But, with good reason, these days you have to assume that anything coming out of Bone Spur's mouth is a lie. It is quite problematic, obviously, when POTUS completely lacks credibility on everything. On Gallagher and on anything else.

Doubly so when the issue at hand has been fanned as a cause celebre by the Fox News bots. Triple-ey so when Gallagher and his cute wife appear to be campaigning for a future career in conservative media. Like the recent appearance at Mar-a-Lago.

So one one side you have Trump, the Hannity crowd, and Gallagher's lawyer.

On the other side, you have the six SEALs in the squad, Adm. Green (SEAL commander), Adm. Gilday (chief of naval operations), and Richard Spencer (secretary of the Navy). Plus respected retired military like Gens. Barry McCaffrey and Jack Keane saying that Trump should butt the fork out of internal discipline and should let the Navy/SEALs deal with their own.

Easiest call possible who to believe.

Sheesh.

I'm not basing anything I post on Trump or FNC.
Just MSM sources, with more detail from Navy Times, Military Times & Stars and Stripes.

Navy Times had the most detail, from the start, to the point that the Judge bounced the first Prosecutor from the case for embedding a Web beacon in an email to the Navy Times reporter. That prompted the Judge to release Gallagher from pre-trial confinement in the Brig to less restrictive confinement.

The Navy SEALs did deal with their own. Chief Gallagher was acquitted by the Court on the major offenses. Trump actually changed little in the final outcome. The difference in retiring an E-7 vice E-6, something the Bureau for Correction of Naval Records would likely (imho) have done anyway, given the relative severity of the offense & the fact that pretrial confinemnt, allowed a jail time sentence (time served) for an offense which would likely have been disposed of (in isolation) via NJP.

During months of pre-trial confinemnt, Trump ordered Gallagher removed from solitary, so he could receive medical treatment.
Given the outcome, the pre-trial confinement was shown to be more punitive than warranted.
Gallagher retaining his Trident is purely honorific. He's now a political football. The MSM is out to ruin him for life, to spite Trump.

The TV Generals are more concerned about the 2 Army cases in which Trump interceded.
Adm Green has vowed to square away the SEALs. Maybe that needs to be done (I don't know), but using this case to do it backfired.
That tends to happen when the chain of command attempts to wield the UCMJ as a leadership tool. More so when the media & politicians get involved.
I have no idea what SecNav Spencer was up to. Unfortunately for him, neither did his boss.

[tech37]

LandM wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:51 am
ggait - that is why you are a lawyer - you create the rules but do not have to follow them.

Yup -- that law degree is so awesome. I always drive 30 over the limit. Haven't paid taxes in decades. Support myself by robbing banks. I'm pretty much El Chapo, but without the prison time!

The only thing that could possibly be better than a law degree would have been if I had played college football. Apparently that would give me a license for unlimited wind bag humble (barely) bragging about how generally awesome I am....

Happy New Year. Hope you are enjoying the snow up in Telluride!

Try not being a dick ggait...I understand that's difficult for such a legal beagle such as yourself. Add up those "billable hours" yet today?

Try doing anything within our system without being forced to deal with a lawyer, whether you want to or not...that's all you need to know...a system established by lawyers...a stacked deck...in the hands of lawyers even the english language is a gimmick

Happy New Year

[MDlaxfan76]

LandM wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:51 am
ggait - that is why you are a lawyer - you create the rules but do not have to follow them.

Yup -- that law degree is so awesome. I always drive 30 over the limit. Haven't paid taxes in decades. Support myself by robbing banks. I'm pretty much El Chapo, but without the prison time!

The only thing that could possibly be better than a law degree would have been if I had played college football. Apparently that would give me a license for unlimited wind bag humble (barely) bragging about how generally awesome I am....

Happy New Year. Hope you are enjoying the snow up in Telluride!

Try not being a dick ggait...I understand that's difficult for such a legal beagle such as yourself. Add up those "billable hours" yet today?

Try doing anything within our system without being forced to deal with a lawyer, whether you want to or not...that's all you need to know...a system established by lawyers...a stacked deck...in the hands of lawyers even the english language is a gimmick

Happy New Year

sheesh, tech, who's being the jerk here?
Unnecessary foul.

[a fan]

LandM wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:51 am
ggait - that is why you are a lawyer - you create the rules but do not have to follow them.

Yup -- that law degree is so awesome. I always drive 30 over the limit. Haven't paid taxes in decades. Support myself by robbing banks. I'm pretty much El Chapo, but without the prison time!

The only thing that could possibly be better than a law degree would have been if I had played college football. Apparently that would give me a license for unlimited wind bag humble (barely) bragging about how generally awesome I am....

Happy New Year. Hope you are enjoying the snow up in Telluride!

Try not being a dick ggait...I understand that's difficult for such a legal beagle such as yourself. Add up those "billable hours" yet today?

Forumites don't like it when you return fire, Ggait. You're supposed to let snowflakes make fun of you....but you can't make fun of them.

It makes them feel ootsy inside. And we can't have that. Poor snowflakes.

[LandM]

best snowflakes was saying Merry Christmas the past two weeks - it awesome watching "real" snowflakes melt

afan - for the life of me your brother must be pi$$ed as you post and he does the hardwork

ggait - yep I got my law degree from the school of hard knocks - Harvard, Yale, pick one - Telluride next month and yes I enjoyed beating ND three years in a row and holding the CIC trophy - I can say that and you cannot

MD - you manage your wife's real estate business. If you think I am being harsh wake up to reality of sending young men into bad situations.

You send young men (no offense women) into little pi$$ any countries for no reason to do a job. That is your tax dollars. If that is harsh.........then do not do it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

best snowflakes was saying Merry Christmas the past two weeks - it awesome watching "real" snowflakes melt

afan - for the life of me your brother must be pi$$ed as you post and he does the hardwork

ggait - yep I got my law degree from the school of hard knocks - Harvard, Yale, pick one - Telluride next month and yes I enjoyed beating ND three years in a row and holding the CIC trophy - I can say that and you cannot

MD - you manage your wife's real estate business. If you think I am being harsh wake up to reality of sending young men into bad situations.

You send young men (no offense women) into little pi$$ any countries for no reason to do a job. That is your tax dollars. If that is harsh.........then do not do it.

Must be fun saying Merry Christmas to Jewish couples for the hell of it.

[LandM]

It is

and I say Happy Hanukkah out of respect

Respect is earned

[Typical Lax Dad]

It is

and I say Happy Hanukkah out of respect

Respect is earned

I wish people a Merry Christmas. Not sure I have ever encountered any “snowflakes” that were offended. I never think much about it. Not sure why you do....

[LandM]

it is the startled look and no response. I do not care just think it is funny when folks have no idea how to respond

[a fan]

afan - for the life of me your brother must be pi$$ed as you post and he does the hardwork

Nope. He's got his feet up. I"m running pot stills for another hour this lovely Sunday evening.

My vocation lends to down time while you're literally watching a pot boil. Part of the deal. So yep, I post at work.

[a fan]

You send young men (no offense women) into little pi$$ any countries for no reason to do a job. That is your tax dollars. If that is harsh.........then do not do it.

Agree 100%. You can't put people in a warzone and expect rational, professional behavior 100% of the time. The mind can't handle it. I'm frankly stunned that more Americans don't snap on these ridiculously long tours.

So yes. Bring them all home. Who do I vote for to get that?

[Typical Lax Dad]

it is the startled look and no response. I do not care just think it is funny when folks have no idea how to respond

You ever wonder if it’s because most people are not accustomed to being greeted by strangers? You are fixated.