Orange Duce

[old salt]

At the time Dmac was a recruiter, the Navy was instituting it's Human Resources Management (HRM) Program, which was revolutionary.
It was a significant change for a tradition bound military service & ahead of what would follow in the civil service & private sector.

It was the Navy's action plan for Equal Opportunity. Each unit (e.g. ship, sub, aircraft squadron) had to create & implement an Affirmative Action Plan, which included metrics & tracking for promotion, retention & assignment to career enhancing billets, by self-selected "ethnic designator".

Each squadron sent a junior officer (0-1 to O-3) & a petty officer (E-5/E-6) to school to become Facilitators on their unit's Command Training Team, who then conducted structured workshops titled Military Rights & Responsibilities & Cultural Expression in the Navy.

Each unit had a junior officer assigned the collateral duty of HRMO(fficer), to manage & implement the program, & to chair the Command's Human Relations Council (HRC) which was a working group with a rep from each division.

The program was a significant departure for a tradition bound service & was initially greeted with skepticism & resistance, but it was made an inspection item for recurring Command administration inspections by higher authority. Commands which took it seriously (like the squadron I was in at the time, where I was assigned duty as the HRMO), turned it into an asset & found that it helped, rather than circumvented, the chain of command.

For me -- a collateral duty assignment which was more often avoided, rather than sought, turned out to be professionally & personally rewarding & significantly career enhancing in a large, competitive composite T&E squadron, staffed with " front running" junior officers from multiple air warfare communities, where it was easy to get lost in a large competitive "pack".

This program', like others from CNO Zumwalt, was controversial, but it was also ahead of it's time, & was accepted, adapted & endures to this day. It made a difference. It worked

https://observer.com/2016/08/when-bud-z ... -the-navy/

The Navy of 1970 was an all-too-often unhappy organization, rife with racial tension. President Nixon was determined to convert from a draft to an all-volunteer force, and the pressures on the Navy were increasing. So, when Admiral Zumwalt took over, his impact on the people, their life in the military, and most of all the values were a shock to the system. It was every bit as great as the transition from sail to steam or the introduction of the aircraft carrier. That’s because he truly integrated the Navy, giving blacks and women full and real equal opportunity.

At the same time, Admiral Zumwalt was determined to make the Navy a happier and more productive place. He did away with “Mickey Mouse” regulations that were more a function of tradition than sound management practice or important to military readiness. And not surprisingly, these changes – including an end to discriminatory housing policies and job restrictions based on race, sex, and national origin – were controversial, indeed often resisted or subverted by traditionalists. When Admiral Zumwalt appeared on the cover of Time magazine, it was with a headline that said he was “Determined to drag the Navy kicking and screaming into the 20th century.”

Race relations deteriorated before they improved. There were race riots aboard two aircraft carriers, the Kitty Hawk and Constellation in 1972, and a black sailor was court-martialed – and acquitted – of sabotaging the main engine on the carrier Ranger.

But race relations and morale did improve. Admiral Zumwalt was famous for listening carefully and with an open mind; thinking logically; not being afraid to take risks or buck tradition. He implemented his Navy-wide changed through directives dubbed “Z-grams.” And he not only expected his reforms to be implemented quickly and fully, he led by example. He appointed the first black admiral and the first woman admiral. He admitted women to the Naval Academy and allowed them, to become Navy pilots.

And despite the critics, traditionalists, and knuckle-draggers, the reforms took hold and prevailed. This was not affirmative action; it was equal opportunity and merit.

Today, the Navy is a remarkably effective organization. It also happens to be, like the other branches of the military, diverse. It is a meritocracy that should serve as a model for many other institutions in our divided nation.

[seacoaster]

Thanks for those posts and anecdotes Dmac and OS. Very interesting. I never knew Admiral Zumwalt made these sorts of changes, which must have been absolutely revolutionary at the time.

[tech37]

I got all that, Kismet, my point is exactly the same. 88 should listen to the people who have actually been there rather than spreading nonsense he read in an article or two. It absolutely goes both ways.

So true dmac!

Geez, ignorance certainly isn't lost on some of the arrogant libs on this board

[DMac]

It's a funny thing, tech, people like 88 are a good part of the reason Trump is our Prez. You'll remember DocB's rantings about how awful the white race is, all racists, bigots, and just nasty people with ill intent in general. I and others warned him many times that that kind of talk would drive people to vote for Trump just to stick it in his type's asz and they did. Read and heed, 88, cuz you're doing that to me. I've never been inclined to vote for Trump, it's no secret how I feel about the guy. I am now though after reading your bullschidt and feeling your "appreciation" for those who serve and protect you when the need arises. I'd do it just to stick in your type's asz....just like so many did the first time around.
I doubt you have enough sense of decency to come on and apologize for the inaccurate picture you've tried to paint and the slanderous schitd you've put out there about our troops...no doubt that Big Red Ego wouldn't allow you to do anything of the sort, but be careful with what you say. Just sayin'.

[MDlaxfan76]

At the time Dmac was a recruiter, the Navy was instituting it's Human Resources Management (HRM) Program, which was revolutionary.
It was a significant change for a tradition bound military service & ahead of what would follow in the civil service & private sector.

It was the Navy's action plan for Equal Opportunity. Each unit (e.g. ship, sub, aircraft squadron) had to create & implement an Affirmative Action Plan, which included metrics & tracking for promotion, retention & assignment to career enhancing billets, by self-selected "ethnic designator".

Each squadron sent a junior officer (0-1 to O-3) & a petty officer (E-5/E-6) to school to become Facilitators on their unit's Command Training Team, who then conducted structured workshops titled Military Rights & Responsibilities & Cultural Expression in the Navy.

Each unit had a junior officer assigned the collateral duty of HRMO(fficer), to manage & implement the program, & to chair the Command's Human Relations Council (HRC) which was a working group with a rep from each division.

The program was a significant departure for a tradition bound service & was initially greeted with skepticism & resistance, but it was made an inspection item for recurring Command administration inspections by higher authority. Commands which took it seriously (like the squadron I was in at the time, where I was assigned duty as the HRMO), turned it into an asset & found that it helped, rather than circumvented, the chain of command.

For me -- a collateral duty assignment which was more often avoided, rather than sought, turned out to be professionally & personally rewarding & significantly career enhancing in a large, competitive composite T&E squadron, staffed with " front running" junior officers from multiple air warfare communities, where it was easy to get lost in a large competitive "pack".

This program', like others from CNO Zumwalt, was controversial, but it was also ahead of it's time, & was accepted, adapted & endures to this day. It made a difference. It worked

https://observer.com/2016/08/when-bud-z ... -the-navy/

The Navy of 1970 was an all-too-often unhappy organization, rife with racial tension. President Nixon was determined to convert from a draft to an all-volunteer force, and the pressures on the Navy were increasing. So, when Admiral Zumwalt took over, his impact on the people, their life in the military, and most of all the values were a shock to the system. It was every bit as great as the transition from sail to steam or the introduction of the aircraft carrier. That’s because he truly integrated the Navy, giving blacks and women full and real equal opportunity.

At the same time, Admiral Zumwalt was determined to make the Navy a happier and more productive place. He did away with “Mickey Mouse” regulations that were more a function of tradition than sound management practice or important to military readiness. And not surprisingly, these changes – including an end to discriminatory housing policies and job restrictions based on race, sex, and national origin – were controversial, indeed often resisted or subverted by traditionalists. When Admiral Zumwalt appeared on the cover of Time magazine, it was with a headline that said he was “Determined to drag the Navy kicking and screaming into the 20th century.”

Race relations deteriorated before they improved. There were race riots aboard two aircraft carriers, the Kitty Hawk and Constellation in 1972, and a black sailor was court-martialed – and acquitted – of sabotaging the main engine on the carrier Ranger.

But race relations and morale did improve. Admiral Zumwalt was famous for listening carefully and with an open mind; thinking logically; not being afraid to take risks or buck tradition. He implemented his Navy-wide changed through directives dubbed “Z-grams.” And he not only expected his reforms to be implemented quickly and fully, he led by example. He appointed the first black admiral and the first woman admiral. He admitted women to the Naval Academy and allowed them, to become Navy pilots.

And despite the critics, traditionalists, and knuckle-draggers, the reforms took hold and prevailed. This was not affirmative action; it was equal opportunity and merit.

Today, the Navy is a remarkably effective organization. It also happens to be, like the other branches of the military, diverse. It is a meritocracy that should serve as a model for many other institutions in our divided nation.

Thanks for posting. Provides a degree of specificity about one service branch's leadership in this evolution our society has been, and continues to be, going through. It is not at all surprising that it was initially met with such resistance, at least for those of us who were alive and sufficiently of age to recall the passions and violence of the '60's and '70's.

I did have to chuckle that the writer felt the need to declaim association with 'affirmative action'. It most certainly was indeed such. But properly implemented, such that the ethic was about merit, unrestrained by racial and gender prejudices. It's my understanding that all branches ultimately moved this direction. I recall Colin Powell discussing these aspects of military life and ethic.

I'd suggest that the job of such progress is never fully completed, nor will the resistance to such ever go away completely. The impetus of the folks who felt that getting rid of discriminatory housing is directly analogous to those who want no gays in the military, who fought to prevent women from combat positions, who decry transgender rights.

Change is hard. It requires leadership. And follow through.

[MDlaxfan76]

In retrospect I should have looked at 88's comments as just more floaters in the cesspool that is social media and let them go, but he got under my skin and I retaliated. My apologies for sinking to his level with my nasty comments. With very little effort one can find all kinds of articles about white privilege and racism in the Ivies just as the slanted nasty little articles he's printed here about the military. It's part of our history, all of ours.
Here's some stuff you can believe as it comes from one with a few years of personal experience...from the horse's mouth so to speak...about military recruiting. In '73 Adm. Zumwalt was the CNO, Vietnam was winding down and the draft was going away. We were going to an all volunteer military which changed the recruiting landscape tremendously. During the draft Air Force and Navy recruiting wasn't at all challenging as many chose those branches in order to avoid becoming an infrantryman in Vietnam. Admiral Zumwalt was a rather progressive thinker as far as military people go. He came out with many " Z Grams" and made some pretty big changes....growing beards, wearing civilian clothes while on liberty (including foriegn ports) and he had the foresight to open up recruiting duty to young people. Prior to this recruiting duty was made up of those doing their last couple of years before retiring, it was a cushy little job that required little effort as it was pretty much a take a number and I'll get to you shortly kind of business. This opportunity opened up just prior to my (and I do mean Just prior) enlistment coming to an end and I fully intended to get out when it did. My reenlistment bonus was $8K (lump sum) for four more years and when I looked into the whole package it looked pretty darn good to me. I put in for it to see what would happen. I had a clean record, was a pretty squared away sailor, had done a couple of out of the ordinary things, earned a couple commendations, was always spit and polished, and always kept myself in pretty top notch shape. Had to be interviewed by a couple of big shots with scrambled eggs and several bars (I've never been intimidated by one's rank...which doesn't mean lack of respect).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambled_egg_(uniform)
Passed all that with flying colors and off to recruiting duty I went. I was an experiment and I doubt there was a younger recruiter in the country. Point being, the Navy wasn't looking for white supremacist types to go out recruiting for them, you had to be pretty squared away and fit the image they were looking for. I didn't let the CNO down either, as I never missed quota once in almost four years. I know what kind of people I put in the military and I know all about the demographics too. I put hundreds of people of all kinds of different colors and from many different kinds of backgrounds in the Navy. Met many of their parents and brothers and sisters too. These were the same kind of people you meet in the general population. Many of them chose the military as a stepping stone to college as the GI bill was pretty darn attractive at the time. I'd bet many of them became college grads a few years after they got out. I never put one person in who came across as a white nationalist/supremacist and never knew one recruiter from any of the other branches who came across as that kind of person either. The military isn't any more flawless than the civilian popultion but it isn't any more phukked up either. It's all pretty much the same. This BS 88 is putting out is ridiculous, don't worry about our military turning into a mob of skinheads, that aint ever going to happen. There are a whole lot of fine young men and women who make up our military.
You go ahead and hate them all 88, but again, rest assured they'll be there for you regardless of what you think of them.

Thanks for posting
This is exactly the sort of response that is really helpful to fellow posters.
Most of us are on here to learn from one another, not simply to spout off angrily or disdainfully.

I really don't think CU88 has the sorts of extreme or ignorant or hating views that deserved all the anger.
I should let him speak for himself, but I took him to be legitimately questioning whether the assumption that racism isn't a strain within the military (as it is in parts of our country) that is rearing its ugly head in the current era. And likewise questioning whether the military would want to white wash such. To me, that's legitimate. Could he have done so more politely? Yup.

Unfortunately, we're seeing all sorts of really ugly stuff these days bubbling to the surface. IMO, Trump is not the cause, but he has rather tapped into it for personal benefit and his behaviors have given license to really ugly stuff. So, it has accelerated in the "Trump era'. And that's got many of us on edge. Me too.

Not the same issue, but when we see our fellow posters get all excited about how Gallagher was mistreated and how wonderful it is that Trump intervened, we really wonder what's going on that so many Seals in his unit felt he was/is truly a bad guy, a 'psychopath' and 'evil' guy and yet these elite level warriors are not believed by our fellow posters. We see Trump over rule the brass, the military justice system, and we worry about the degradation of the institutions by an authoritarian leader...and we worry about what happens when those who disagree are removed from their positions and replaced with Trump loyalists...when the institutions are no longer respected for anything more than their lethality.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/27/politics ... index.html

And when so much of our fellow posters' response to those on the left or even the middle (like me) is such anger and hate of ("lib--ard Dems", RHINO's, etc), coupled with arguments for "Nationalism", and "good people on both sides", it's downright scary.

How do we bring the country back together, inclusively?

Again, thanks for the post above.
Same to Salty.

[MDlaxfan76]

It's a funny thing, tech, people like 88 are a good part of the reason Trump is our Prez. You'll remember DocB's rantings about how awful the white race is, all racists, bigots, and just nasty people with ill intent in general. I and others warned him many times that that kind of talk would drive people to vote for Trump just to stick it in his type's asz and they did. Read and heed, 88, cuz you're doing that to me. I've never been inclined to vote for Trump, it's no secret how I feel about the guy. I am now though after reading your bullschidt and feeling your "appreciation" for those who serve and protect you when the need arises. I'd do it just to stick in your type's asz....just like so many did the first time around.
I doubt you have enough sense of decency to come on and apologize for the inaccurate picture you've tried to paint and the slanderous schitd you've put out there about our troops...no doubt that Big Red Ego wouldn't allow you to do anything of the sort, but be careful with what you say. Just sayin'.

But this is the sort of post that is not so helpful.

[DMac]

Frankly, MDlax, I don't see how my post is not helpful unless the objective is to get more people to the voting booth to pull the lever for Trump. Round two is destined to have the same kind of outcome as round one with that kind of talk.

I really don't think CU88 has the sorts of extreme or ignorant or hating views that deserved all the anger.

Obviously, I do. There's no mistaking what he said or what types of people he thinks are being sought out for recruitment, no mistaking that at all. The Big Green Ego, woe is he who questions anything about the military, a prevalence of white nationalists/supremacists, teachings at the military academies. Oh, and my threatening him with physical harm (still waiting for that quote). There's no question that he views the military as a mob of white supremacists who are quite an evil and ugly lot. He absolutely deserves all the anger, IMO.

I should let him speak for himself, but I took him to be legitimately questioning whether the assumption that racism isn't a strain within the military (as it is in parts of our country) that is rearing its ugly head in the current era. And likewise questioning whether the military would want to white wash such. To me, that's legitimate. Could he have done so more politely? Yup.

You just read about Adm. Zumwalt, his Z grams and the changes he brought about in the Navy and all the branches. Believe that part, that's today's military where white supremacists aren't welcomed.
https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2019/1 ... -ties.html

[tech37]

It's a funny thing, tech, people like 88 are a good part of the reason Trump is our Prez. You'll remember DocB's rantings about how awful the white race is, all racists, bigots, and just nasty people with ill intent in general. I and others warned him many times that that kind of talk would drive people to vote for Trump just to stick it in his type's asz and they did. Read and heed, 88, cuz you're doing that to me. I've never been inclined to vote for Trump, it's no secret how I feel about the guy. I am now though after reading your bullschidt and feeling your "appreciation" for those who serve and protect you when the need arises. I'd do it just to stick in your type's asz....just like so many did the first time around.
I doubt you have enough sense of decency to come on and apologize for the inaccurate picture you've tried to paint and the slanderous schitd you've put out there about our troops...no doubt that Big Red Ego wouldn't allow you to do anything of the sort, but be careful with what you say. Just sayin'.

But this is the sort of post that is not so helpful.

Unfortunately CU88's unhelpful posts are typical. It's either out of ignorance or just a want to pi$$ certain people off.

Not sure which is worse but certainly neither are "helpful."

[MDlaxfan76]

Frankly, MDlax, I don't see how my post is not helpful unless the objective is to get more people to the voting booth to pull the lever for Trump. Round two is destined to have the same kind of outcome as round one with that kind of talk.

I really don't think CU88 has the sorts of extreme or ignorant or hating views that deserved all the anger.

Obviously, I do. There's no mistaking what he said or what types of people he thinks are being sought out for recruitment, no mistaking that at all. The Big Green Ego, woe is he who questions anything about the military, a prevalence of white nationalists/supremacists, teachings at the military academies. Oh, and my threatening him with physical harm (still waiting for that quote). There's no question that he views the military as a mob of white supremacists who are quite an evil and ugly lot. He absolutely deserves all the anger, IMO.

I should let him speak for himself, but I took him to be legitimately questioning whether the assumption that racism isn't a strain within the military (as it is in parts of our country) that is rearing its ugly head in the current era. And likewise questioning whether the military would want to white wash such. To me, that's legitimate. Could he have done so more politely? Yup.

You just read about Adm. Zumwalt, his Z grams and the changes he brought about in the Navy and all the branches. Believe that part, that's today's military where white supremacists aren't welcomed.
https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2019/1 ... -ties.html

Yes, you'll note that I responded to both you and Salty, appreciatively.
I also have no doubt that the military's position is to reject white nationalists as unsuited for service.
Of course, it nevertheless exists...liberal groups uncovered these guys and exposed them, not the military.

I just didn't read CU88 as extreme as you did, but, hey, your sensitivity to it clearly is higher than mine would be. Legitimately so.

But boy, let's assume there are knuckleheads on the left who say pejorative things about the military (of course there are!); you really going to let some lefty extremists cause you to vote for Trump???

[MDlaxfan76]

It's a funny thing, tech, people like 88 are a good part of the reason Trump is our Prez. You'll remember DocB's rantings about how awful the white race is, all racists, bigots, and just nasty people with ill intent in general. I and others warned him many times that that kind of talk would drive people to vote for Trump just to stick it in his type's asz and they did. Read and heed, 88, cuz you're doing that to me. I've never been inclined to vote for Trump, it's no secret how I feel about the guy. I am now though after reading your bullschidt and feeling your "appreciation" for those who serve and protect you when the need arises. I'd do it just to stick in your type's asz....just like so many did the first time around.
I doubt you have enough sense of decency to come on and apologize for the inaccurate picture you've tried to paint and the slanderous schitd you've put out there about our troops...no doubt that Big Red Ego wouldn't allow you to do anything of the sort, but be careful with what you say. Just sayin'.

But this is the sort of post that is not so helpful.

Unfortunately CU88's unhelpful posts are typical. It's either out of ignorance or just a want to pi$$ certain people off.

Not sure which is worse but certainly neither are "helpful."

Not speaking of anyone in particular, but trolling or shouting just for effect doesn't create any space for learning from one another.

[ardilla secreta]

With such thoughtful comments, it’s hard to believe women never post on this forum.

[cradleandshoot]

Frankly, MDlax, I don't see how my post is not helpful unless the objective is to get more people to the voting booth to pull the lever for Trump. Round two is destined to have the same kind of outcome as round one with that kind of talk.

I really don't think CU88 has the sorts of extreme or ignorant or hating views that deserved all the anger.

Obviously, I do. There's no mistaking what he said or what types of people he thinks are being sought out for recruitment, no mistaking that at all. The Big Green Ego, woe is he who questions anything about the military, a prevalence of white nationalists/supremacists, teachings at the military academies. Oh, and my threatening him with physical harm (still waiting for that quote). There's no question that he views the military as a mob of white supremacists who are quite an evil and ugly lot. He absolutely deserves all the anger, IMO.

I should let him speak for himself, but I took him to be legitimately questioning whether the assumption that racism isn't a strain within the military (as it is in parts of our country) that is rearing its ugly head in the current era. And likewise questioning whether the military would want to white wash such. To me, that's legitimate. Could he have done so more politely? Yup.

You just read about Adm. Zumwalt, his Z grams and the changes he brought about in the Navy and all the branches. Believe that part, that's today's military where white supremacists aren't welcomed.
https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2019/1 ... -ties.html

Yes, you'll note that I responded to both you and Salty, appreciatively.
I also have no doubt that the military's position is to reject white nationalists as unsuited for service.
Of course, it nevertheless exists...liberal groups uncovered these guys and exposed them, not the military.

I just didn't read CU88 as extreme as you did, but, hey, your sensitivity to it clearly is higher than mine would be. Legitimately so.

But boy, let's assume there are knuckleheads on the left who say pejorative things about the military (of course there are!); you really going to let some lefty extremists cause you to vote for Trump???

You do realize that if a large scale shooting war breaks out all bets will be off. It will not matter if you are a skinhead or a black panther or an illegal alien. So long as you can March and shoot a rifle everybody will be welcome to the party. Attrition in combat makes all sorts of opportunities for fresh cannon fodder. Remember Vietnam and the draft and doing your tour of duty? You would be astounded how quickly the standards can be lowered.

[MDlaxfan76]

Frankly, MDlax, I don't see how my post is not helpful unless the objective is to get more people to the voting booth to pull the lever for Trump. Round two is destined to have the same kind of outcome as round one with that kind of talk.

I really don't think CU88 has the sorts of extreme or ignorant or hating views that deserved all the anger.

Obviously, I do. There's no mistaking what he said or what types of people he thinks are being sought out for recruitment, no mistaking that at all. The Big Green Ego, woe is he who questions anything about the military, a prevalence of white nationalists/supremacists, teachings at the military academies. Oh, and my threatening him with physical harm (still waiting for that quote). There's no question that he views the military as a mob of white supremacists who are quite an evil and ugly lot. He absolutely deserves all the anger, IMO.

I should let him speak for himself, but I took him to be legitimately questioning whether the assumption that racism isn't a strain within the military (as it is in parts of our country) that is rearing its ugly head in the current era. And likewise questioning whether the military would want to white wash such. To me, that's legitimate. Could he have done so more politely? Yup.

You just read about Adm. Zumwalt, his Z grams and the changes he brought about in the Navy and all the branches. Believe that part, that's today's military where white supremacists aren't welcomed.
https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2019/1 ... -ties.html

Yes, you'll note that I responded to both you and Salty, appreciatively.
I also have no doubt that the military's position is to reject white nationalists as unsuited for service.
Of course, it nevertheless exists...liberal groups uncovered these guys and exposed them, not the military.

I just didn't read CU88 as extreme as you did, but, hey, your sensitivity to it clearly is higher than mine would be. Legitimately so.

But boy, let's assume there are knuckleheads on the left who say pejorative things about the military (of course there are!); you really going to let some lefty extremists cause you to vote for Trump???

You do realize that if a large scale shooting war breaks out all bets will be off. It will not matter if you are a skinhead or a black panther or an illegal alien. So long as you can March and shoot a rifle everybody will be welcome to the party. Attrition in combat makes all sorts of opportunities for fresh cannon fodder. Remember Vietnam and the draft and doing your tour of duty? You would be astounded how quickly the standards can be lowered.

Of course I understand the 'large scale' aspect.
Especially if our home is actually threatened.

Vietnam's actually not a great example, as most of us would agree how much of cluster that process was, with a draft that rich boys could avoid and with soldiers fragging their commanders and top brass lying to the public about a conflict that was never actually existential to the US.

Better example would be WWII. In any case, I certainly take your point that if we're faced with an existential situation, we'll be welcoming all comers into our shared foxholes.

But that's not the situation we've had since going to a volunteer force.
And our military effectiveness has strengthened, not diminished.

I don't think we'll go back to a draft absent an existential threat, and if that happens the world is toast given the technologies of today.

So, I'm in favor of keeping standards high, training the heck out of our soldiers, paying them well and supporting them super well following their service.

And using soft power heavily to avoid and or limit actual armed conflict.

[DMac]

With such thoughtful comments, it’s hard to believe women never post on this forum.

Although Lady Laker was pretty darn good with thoughtful comments. Would really like to have the Army vet (hubby too....Princeton boy) gal around for the discussion.

Lady Laker, Lady Laker, wherefore art thou?
I beckon thee for thine presence.
Please, please, please.

That'd take the discussion to a different level and I'm not thinkin' 88 would find it much to his liking.

[old salt]

MDLF76:
Not the same issue, but when we see our fellow posters get all excited about how Gallagher was mistreated and how wonderful it is that Trump intervened, we really wonder what's going on that so many Seals in his unit felt he was/is truly a bad guy, a 'psychopath' and 'evil' guy and yet these elite level warriors are not believed by our fellow posters. We see Trump over rule the brass, the military justice system, and we worry about the degradation of the institutions by an authoritarian leader...and we worry about what happens when those who disagree are removed from their positions and replaced with Trump loyalists...when the institutions are no longer respected for anything more than their lethality.

Chief Gallagher's fellow SEALs were heard by a jury of their peers & were found unconvincing.
The fellow SEAL whose video you're now seeing on tv blew up the prosecution when he changed his story & admitted to mercy killing the prisoner.
The other SEAL witnesses are not talking to the media.
This is CNN, NYT & NBC beating a dead horse, looking for a pretext to talk about Trump intervening.
Who gave the video to the NYT ? Evidence chain of custody ? NCIS or Navy JAG ? Not their finest hour.

To be clear -- Chief Gallagher was acquitted of alleged war crimes at Court Martial, after an exhaustive investigation & a lengthy trial.
Trump merely restored Gallagher to E-7, after an automatic reduction to E-6 for a lesser charge which, alone, would have been adjudicated at the command level via non-judicial punishment.

This is a preemptive strike, to retry (now retired) Chief Gallagher in the media, to diminish him if he campaigns for Trump.

[a fan]

Can't be. The media would NEVER use the plight of an obvious section 8 soldier, just to stick it to a President.

[DocBarrister]

It's a funny thing, tech, people like 88 are a good part of the reason Trump is our Prez. You'll remember DocB's rantings about how awful the white race is, all racists, bigots, and just nasty people with ill intent in general. I and others warned him many times that that kind of talk would drive people to vote for Trump just to stick it in his type's asz and they did. Read and heed, 88, cuz you're doing that to me. I've never been inclined to vote for Trump, it's no secret how I feel about the guy. I am now though after reading your bullschidt and feeling your "appreciation" for those who serve and protect you when the need arises. I'd do it just to stick in your type's asz....just like so many did the first time around.
I doubt you have enough sense of decency to come on and apologize for the inaccurate picture you've tried to paint and the slanderous schitd you've put out there about our troops...no doubt that Big Red Ego wouldn't allow you to do anything of the sort, but be careful with what you say. Just sayin'.

No one can support a guy like Donald Trump—a vulgar, dishonest, moronic Birther with a long history of racism, bigotry, and misogyny, including numerous credible allegations of sexual harassment and assault—without being some combination of a racist, liar, bigot, moron, ignoramus, and/or misogynist. Just not possible. Does that mean every Trump supporter is all six things? Certainly not. Does it mean a Trump supporter is one or more of those things? Absolutely.

Anyone here seriously challenge that basic truth?

And remember, one thing that distinguishes Trump from some of his predecessors who were also flawed individuals (looking at you, Bill Clinton), is that Trump’s flaws are reflected in his policies and actions—racist, dishonest, bigoted, moronic, ignorant, misogynistic policies and actions.

DocBarrister

[Trinity]

“The President of the United States has, today alone, retweeted 2 QAnon fan accounts, a Pizzagate account, an account that compared his following to a cult, and an account that described Obama as “Satan’s Muslim Scum.” And this insanity isn’t even a blip on the news radar.” Aaron Rupar, journalist.

[seacoaster]

This morning's surf of the web:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ic/604159/