DMac wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:14 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:42 pm
DMac wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:49 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:57 am
Trinity wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:26 am
I believe we have Cornell versus Dartmouth here. Nobody’s insulting the Army.
Actually no, CU88 did mean the Army or military overall...
No insult to my Big Green in Hanover.
Yup, and little does he know (maybe) his comment speaks volumes about him and his ilk. These are the types who will say thank you for your service and are about as sincere and honest about that as they are when they tell their wives their aszez don't look fat in that dress. I don't like it when people say that to me as I figure the majority of them think like he does (I also think some are sincere). I also don't stand up on Military Day or Veterans Day, in the Dome, for example, when the veterans are asked to stand for recognititon. I served for no one other than myself and did nothing for any of the people who are being asked to recognize me. I was looking for opportunity and adventure and I got it, no one needs to thank me for that.
We have some posters on here who seem to think that being in the military or a veteran automatically imbues one with qualities of character not found elsewhere in society, as well as some sort of immunity from critique.
You've got to throw an IMO in here. I certainly don't feel that way.
I happen to quite agree with you DMac that its quite likely that we can find knuckleheads and idiots and racists and jerks at all sorts of places other than military academies.
Which, of course is exactly the point. These types are, and always have been, amoung us. To say there is a prevalence of white supreacists in the military and claiming their philosophy is being taught at the military academies is nothing more than words coming out of an ignorant fool's mouth.
I also quite doubt that those running such military institutions skew significantly more racist than their peers at other institutions.
Nope, perecentages of gays, racists, bigots, pedophiles, rapists, murderers, etc are going to remain the same pretty much regardless of where you go.
That said, I'd not be at all surprised to learn that the views on such issues of those in the military reflect the views of the demographic from which they came, at least on intake. And, yeah, that does tend to skew more to the demographic most likely to reflect considerable bigotry.
But I'd also like to think (you guys have more background can probably help illuminate this) that the military and service tends to help folks break down prejudices if only by greater exposure to one another, dependence upon one another.
It does, and for the reasons you mention. It's a good education in that respect.
Now, the folks in the White House, that's another matter altogether.
I think you're a bit harsh on thinking that others aren't actually sincere if they thank someone in uniform for their service. I don't think anyone actually bothers to say such if they don't mean it. Easier to just not bother, I'd think.
I said that some are sincere but believe me when I say I'm not the only veteran who feels this way. This same ilk are the ones who were calling us baby killers when we returned from Southeast Asia as it was in vogue in those days. Today the politically correct thing to do is thank us for our service and many people just mouth those words. Again, I assure you I'm not the only veteran who feels this way.
I also think CU88 is nowhere's near the "ignorant fool" or whatever else you think negatively about him. I think you're overstating what he said about people in the service or at an academy being "taught" this sort of ideology as if it's in the curriculum versus an undercurrent of acceptance amongst their peers and some in command. The latter could well be more accurate than we'd like to think...it's true across society in 2019, why not in the military?
What he said is in black and white if you want to go back and look at. There's really no mistaking what he said....and it is born of ignorance.
Seems to me that military is aware of this challenge and is making moves to address it, but there's political pressure from the White House the opposite direction. That's the issue.
As to "prevalence", I doubt there's greater such in the military than what the demographics would suggest. The sorts of ideology that we're talking about, "white nationalism/white supremacy" is indeed more "prevalent" in less educated, working class, rural populations than it is in suburban, more affluent, more educated, more diverse population regions. Fact. So, if the military disproportionately gets white recruits from that demographic it would be expected that the 'prevalence' of this sort of ideology (at least on intake) would match pretty closely.
Unfortunately, it's not insignificant. Not in America, not in our military.
And it really does matter who gets weapons and explosives training, right?
So, lets keep those knuckleheads out.
Much bigger issue ('higher prevalence' or "higher incidence") than keeping, say, radical muslims out (and that's certainly a big deal!).
DMac,
I understand that you and some other veterans may
think that to be the case, but there's no way that someone who would have been calling soldiers 'baby-killers' back in that era (I was youngster and know exactly what you're describing) would be thanking any military folks for their service today (unless they've had an immense change of heart). The sorts of folks who would go there back then, simply wouldn't say anything today...no one's actually expected to say that today so why bother? I really think it be very rare.
Gotta remember that most of the anti-Vietnam protestors, angry as they were, weren't spitting on and cursing the military personnel, though way, way, way too many were...it was indeed a really ugly time. So much social turmoil, most all of it entirely justified (though not some of the tactics). Roughest turmoil in my lifetime and I sure hope that remains the case.
The folks who do think it's worth the bother are the ones who do. For instance, I don't intrude on someone in uniform just to thank them, but if I'm somehow otherwise engaged in conversation, it's likely to be said very naturally. Not a big deal to do.
Of course, for those of us who went through that Vietnam era, we do understand how awful it was that young men who believed they were simply answering a call to duty were treated so abominably by many of those who thought the war was a disgrace, a terrible mistake in judgment.
I think what really shook me with regard to the military and Vietnam was not My Lai, but rather the Pentagon Papers. I could see how something like My Lai could happen when things spun out of control. I've never assumed that Americans are somehow immune from committing atrocities. And I could understand how things could indeed spin out of control.
But the Pentagon Papers revealed a mendacity at the highest levels that betrayed the American people's trust. Bottomline, it wasn't just the politicians. That's what horrified me, how political pressures could lead to that level of dishonesty from the military itself.
I turned 18 in 1975, one of the few years when there was neither a draft nor even a number. I'd always assumed growing up that I'd be going to Vietnam, as a volunteer if need be, but by the time we got to '75 and '76 when I graduated HS, I was pretty darn disgusted...and mostly that was the Pentagon Papers.
Looks like we've had some of that with Afghanistan. Perhaps not as bad, but still not ok.