Trump's Russian Collusion

[seacoaster]

Vote the articles of Impeachment and hold them in the House. Don’t name managers.

Not going to happen, obviously. And dumb to hold up the process for Bolton, Pompeo, McGahn, etc. Since it would take two years to actually get testimony from them.

But once the House votes on the articles of impeachment, I think the president is impeached, the House process is over, and the Senate process starts. So not naming managers for the Senate process would be violating the constitutional directive. It wold be the House obstructing the Senate.

If you want to hit the pause button, I think you would have to avoid a full House vote on the articles. Just leave it at the House Judiciary vote.

I think this is right; once there is a vote on the articles, the issue has to move to the Senate. And you cannot call a guy a grave threat to democracy and then hit a pause button.

We expected that the GOP Senate would show itself to be cowardly, venal and small; they have not disappointed on that score so far. This is really now for the historical record, so that at least some Americans can look back and say they tried, they warned the country, they took the steps that were available. McConnell and Graham will have a tombstone epitaph and obituary lead that calls out their cowardice in the face of a threat to the Republic. It's not enough, but it'll have to do.

[MDlaxfan76]

I think they can stall if they don’t choose Impeachment managers....but of course I was foot cop. I’m not sure how to ensure a fair trial of the facts. Bolton should have to testify. Giuliani. Pence. Pompeo. They work for us. Well, not Rudy. Why did they try so hard to get only THE ANNOUNCEMENT of a Burisma investigation if they cared about corruption in Ukraine? Why are they pumping Russian propaganda into the American bloodstream?

Definitely the right questions, however I suspect ggait is correct about the obstruction issue being at least a huge political problem given that “obstruction of Congress “ is an article of impeachment.

So, attorneys, how does the issue of a POTUS ordering a total refusal to obey subpoenas get decided by the Court such that this behavior does not become precedent, at least in practice?

[ggait]

And it is not just for long term posterity/history. There's also going to be some implications in the shorter term too.

Trump could be gone in just one year. Five years at the latest. And once he's gone, it is ALL going to come out.

Once a Dem gets elected to the WH, one can only imagine what we will see from FOIAs, de-classifications, court cases and tell-all books?

You just have to believe that being a Trump-er is not going to age well. It pretty much never ends well for anyone. And it will totally serve the toadies right.

[ggait]

So, attorneys, how does the issue of a POTUS ordering a total refusal to obey subpoenas get decided by the Court such that this behavior does not become precedent, at least in practice?

The cases on absolute immunity (a laughable claim) will continue and will get resolved. McGahn's case, in particular, is not specifically tied to impeachment.

But after that dubious claim gets shot down eventually, McGahn/Bolton/Kupperman etc. would then just start a completely new phase of litigation over executive privelege. Which is a legit recognized claim.

This second phase is why it would take a couple of years to actually get anything from these guys. They'd ridiculously claim everything is exec priveleged, since the current WH counsel and DOJ are fully happy to make bogusly overbroad claims to run the shot clock. So the Dems would have to spend many months plodding through each individual exec privelege claim. They'd win most of those, but it takes time.

Unlike litigants in the real world, Trump has an unlimited budget to litigate and feels no constraint to act at all reasonably or in good faith.

[youthathletics]

I think they can stall if they don’t choose Impeachment managers....but of course I was foot cop. I’m not sure how to ensure a fair trial of the facts. Bolton should have to testify. Giuliani. Pence. Pompeo. They work for us. Well, not Rudy. Why did they try so hard to get only THE ANNOUNCEMENT of a Burisma investigation if they cared about corruption in Ukraine? Why are they pumping Russian propaganda into the American bloodstream?

Definitely the right questions, however I suspect ggait is correct about the obstruction issue being at least a huge political problem given that “obstruction of Congress “ is an article of impeachment.

So, attorneys, how does the issue of a POTUS ordering a total refusal to obey subpoenas get decided by the Court such that this behavior does not become precedent, at least in practice?

I’m a bit confused. If an “impeachment” inquiry hearing(s) and impeachment itself, is solely from The House and NOT a legal proceeding, because The House makes and sets the rules, why then would anyone have to listen to a House request to testify? It seems NOT being a legal process forces The House to make certain this is a bi-partisan proceeding....so that BOTH sides are working together.

[Trinity]

“Hope @SpeakerPelosi will not play into Mitch’s hands, and allow the GOP Senate to exonerate Trump for his crimes. This is how to stop it. Impeach, don’t send to the Senate and continue to investigate! Make it a campaign issue. Senate is rigged. Stop the crowning of King Donald!”

John Dean Nixon lawyer

[dislaxxic]

Lindsey Graham Is ‘Not Trying To Pretend To Be A Fair Juror’ In Trump Trial

But, but, but...



Biggest weasel in the Congress, by FAR

..

[MDlaxfan76]

And it is not just for long term posterity/history. There's also going to be some implications in the shorter term too.

Trump could be gone in just one year. Five years at the latest. And once he's gone, it is ALL going to come out.

Once a Dem gets elected to the WH, one can only imagine what we will see from FOIAs, de-classifications, court cases and tell-all books?

You just have to believe that being a Trump-er is not going to age well. It pretty much never ends well for anyone. And it will totally serve the toadies right.

Again, assuming Trump is no more than a two-term POTUS.

[MDlaxfan76]

So, attorneys, how does the issue of a POTUS ordering a total refusal to obey subpoenas get decided by the Court such that this behavior does not become precedent, at least in practice?

The cases on absolute immunity (a laughable claim) will continue and will get resolved. McGahn's case, in particular, is not specifically tied to impeachment.

But after that dubious claim gets shot down eventually, McGahn/Bolton/Kupperman etc. would then just start a completely new phase of litigation over executive privelege. Which is a legit recognized claim.

This second phase is why it would take a couple of years to actually get anything from these guys. They'd ridiculously claim everything is exec priveleged, since the current WH counsel and DOJ are fully happy to make bogusly overbroad claims to run the shot clock. So the Dems would have to spend many months plodding through each individual exec privelege claim. They'd win most of those, but it takes time.

Unlike litigants in the real world, Trump has an unlimited budget to litigate and feels no constraint to act at all reasonably or in good faith.

I understand this issue, I just don't think impeachment absent removal solves anything in the meantime, I'd rather put the onus on Trump and crew to constantly defend total obstruction.

[Brooklyn]

Everyone ready for the show trial?

[seacoaster]

From our friends at the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... s-fox-news

Remember when Republicans fancied themselves the party of law and order? Pretended the Constitution mattered?

[dislaxxic]

Why Justin Amash Should be an Impeachment Manager

..

[calourie]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/rudy-giulian ... 11599.html

Go Rudy !!!!

[Trinity]

Former GOP VP Candidate on the short-lived fantasy Ted Cruz-Fiorina ticket Carly Fiorina has come out in favor of Impeachment. Former Republican Penn Gov Tom Ridge also said, “Frig that guy.”

This may be that “Last Gas for 800 miles“ road sign you see when you enter Utah, metaphorically speaking.

[seacoaster]

Former GOP VP Candidate on the short-lived fantasy Ted Cruz-Fiorina ticket Carly Fiorina has come out in favor of Impeachment. Former Republican Penn Gov Tom Ridge also said, “Frig that guy.”

This may be that “Last Gas for 800 miles“ road sign you see when you enter Utah, metaphorically speaking.

If we are collecting "formers," there is Byron Dorgan, Slade Gorton and Bill Cohen -- former Senators who didn't join the Cult of Il Duce. All are stunned at the spineless venality of the GOP and the Senate.

[kramerica.inc]

More of the same - "DemShaming."

If you are 46% of the American people who don't agree with the 48% of the Dems out there you're spineless or...insert insult here.

[ggait]

The "insultees" are really only about 25% of the country. But unfortunately 100% of the Reps in Congress.

70% of Americans know and say Trump did something wrong. Among those 70%, most think Trump should be removed; a few think he should be impeached but not removed, and the remainder think he shouldn't be impeached -- maybe just censured.

The Reps in Congress are actually way way more supportive of Trump than the country generally is. 100% of the Rep Congress speaks like the 25% true believers -- denying reality and gaslighting about how Trump did absolutely nothing wrong.

Shows what the main problem of the GOP is -- there's no center right anymore. Folks Like Tom Ridge and Bill Cohen are no longer welcome -- they are ostracized as RINOs and elite deep staters. Worse than liberal fools!!

In contrast, the center left still drives the Dem bus. Biden+Mayor Pete+Bloomberg+Klobuchar >> Bern+Warren.

[njbill]

Former GOP VP Candidate on the short-lived fantasy Ted Cruz-Fiorina ticket Carly Fiorina has come out in favor of Impeachment. Former Republican Penn Gov Tom Ridge also said, “Frig that guy.”

This may be that “Last Gas for 800 miles“ road sign you see when you enter Utah, metaphorically speaking.

Carly hasn't forgotten Trump's comment about her looks.

[ggait]

She hasn't forgotten Trump's comment about her looks.

True. But note how easily Lyin' Ted Cruz has been able to forget how Trump called him a foreigner and philanderer. And his wife an ugly drunk. And his father JFK's assassin.

[Brooklyn]

Good post, lot of truth there, thanks.
That's too many ignorant Trump supporters go to line when they're stumped and/or don't really know what they're talking about, which is why it annoys me.

31-7 Navy gotta love that. Was at the '73 game
when Navy beat Army 51-0.

Seen at the recent Army-Navy game - possible white supremacist gesture: