Universal Start Date, New Tournament Format

[Gorilla Fan]

Really difficult to disagree with any of his points:

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... rmat/36617

[Cooter]

The first round of the NCAA Tournament should begin at noon on the Friday before Memorial Day in the home venue of a top four seed. That venue should host another first round matchup at 2:30. Another venue should host its first first round matchup at 5:30, then a second at 8 pm. The same pattern should be repeated on Saturday. Then, the noon/2:30 venue should host a Quarterfinal matchup at noon on Sunday, the second Quarterfinal should be at 2:30 Sunday, then the pattern repeated on Monday. Four venues hosting three games over the course of three days; the Tournament field moving from 16 to four in four days.

This seems very dumb.
The main reason in my mind for pushing the tournament back into June would be to try to avoid games with a limited amount of preparation time, here Terry Foy is increasing the number of them.

A seeded team losing in the first round would miss the qf game. This could lead to qf games at remote sites without the home team - poor attendance. Friday afternoon game with the students gone home will lead to very poor attendance.

The advantage to the #1 seed seems rather strong. First round game at home against the play-in game winnerwhere perhaps they will have a chance to rest their starters, and at the earlier time, followed by a home game 2 days later.

[Dip&Dunk]

Quick reaction comments:
(A) Overall: if you want to really mess something up, centrally manage it. I believe the February games will fix themselves without the NCAA (IL?) telling them when to schedule them.
(B) I believe his analysis underestimates the financial impact. The financial balance of lacrosse is at a crucial point right now. Teams are dropping games due to cost as it is now. After that, the only thing left to drop is the program itself. Now is not the time to administratively raise the cost of a lacrosse program.
(C) Many schools have their student/athletes do other things during the summer (All service academies, VMI, internships, summer school, etc.) and creeping the schedule into the summer impacts those activities.
(D) This problem is more of building a better mousetrap then it is scheduling.

[notentitled]

My son who did play lax in college at northern school thought the February start rather silly, considering the weather. Most universities do not have indoor facilities that can hold effective indoor practices. ESPN has made the schedule and the NCAA buys in because they get a check. For most fans/parents think of lacrosse as a Spring sport- March is touch warmer than January and February.

[xxxxxxx]

College lacrosse should move the the fall and play games on Sundays so no conflict with football. The fall weather in the North East when the majority of games are played would do wonders for attendance. You could play the championship at Thanksgiving on Friday and Sunday of that weekend. I don't see it happening any time soon but it makes a lot more sense than playing ten games in February and March in 30 degree weather. Who wants to go to a game in February, the only ones there are family and a few friends.

[HopFan16]

College lacrosse should move the the fall and play games on Sundays so no conflict with football. The fall weather in the North East when the majority of games are played would do wonders for attendance. You could play the championship at Thanksgiving on Friday and Sunday of that weekend. I don't see it happening any time soon but it makes a lot more sense than playing ten games in February and March in 30 degree weather. Who wants to go to a game in February, the only ones there are family and a few friends.

This would be virtually impossible given the conflicts with soccer and field hockey. Many programs would quite literally not have a field to play on.

The weather can be just as bad in late November and December as it is in February. It was 30 degrees and snowing/freezing raining in New York last week. I'd rather the weather start bad and get progressively better so that by the time the most important games roll around, it's gorgeous out—rather than it starting nice but slowly getting worse as the season goes on to the point where you're playing crucial end-of-season games in the snow.

The February games are FAR from ideal, but I don't think it's really that big of a deal. Then again I'm not a current player nor a parent who has to sit in sub-freezing temps to watch Jimmy freeze his butt off on the bench. It wouldn't be the worst idea to push the season back a week from where it is, or install a universal start date of, say, Feb. 15, to at least minimize the sport's exposure to February—assuming that it could be done logistically. I don't think pushing games out of the month of February entirely is realistic.

[Kinduv]

Start 1ater and p1ay m0re weekday games, mic dr0p,

[OCanada]

The NCAA was advised in 2001 the cost to the family of attending the FF needed to be controlled. The largest contributing reason for the drop imo is the rapid escalation in cost pr tickets, travel and lodging, parking etc. I have heard ADd posit the thrill has warn off and that is the reason by talking to fans the ones I have talked to have cited cost. The NCAA adopted a process of bidding out hosting which was inflationary for at least as long as revenues went up. The NCAA wanted lax to be profitable. The ECAC had a study that cited the cost of tickets as being below market value. About half so there was little incentive to control them. The Philly bid included the involvement of a business development group to guarantee the bid number could be relied on in making the decision,

A proposal was made to include a halftime ceremony honoring the military in during the transition to pro stadia. The NCAA said no. There was a proposal to have a village along the Inner Harbor. The NCAA said no. There was a proposal to have a kickoff concert. Again no.

I don’t recall a conversation being had where Menorisl Day and lax were intertwined at that time.

Extending beyond Memorial Day rose issues. Which can maybe be addressed but it was not without disruptions at that time

[kramerica.inc]

I am not entirely thrilled with his centralized solution, but it's an excellent start for discussion.

-I think you keep season start dates whenever you want.
-I like the idea of starting the tournament on Memorial Day weekend at higher seeds. That way you keep the tradition, and it is a good kickoff to summer vacation. With the youth and h.s lax seasons ending around then, I know a lot of families that plan their memorial day around attending a college lax event. With different local colleges hosting, that means less time on roads and makes travel easier for families.
-I think the following two weeks you do a second regional event for the QFs and finally a FF similar to previous times, at a smaller venue.
I dont think ytou mandate a change tot he start date of the season. Let the coaches and schools decide how they use their allocation of competition dates. But I think if you move to a later Tourney start I think we could see other good/interesting things happen like: Later season start dates, similar season start dates but more OOC games, and/or maybe conference tourneys moved back and old/other rivalry games renewed.

[xxxxxxx]

College lacrosse should move the the fall and play games on Sundays so no conflict with football. The fall weather in the North East when the majority of games are played would do wonders for attendance. You could play the championship at Thanksgiving on Friday and Sunday of that weekend. I don't see it happening any time soon but it makes a lot more sense than playing ten games in February and March in 30 degree weather. Who wants to go to a game in February, the only ones there are family and a few friends.

This would be virtually impossible given the conflicts with soccer and field hockey. Many programs would quite literally not have a field to play on.

The weather can be just as bad in late November and December as it is in February. It was 30 degrees and snowing/freezing raining in New York last week. I'd rather the weather start bad and get progressively better so that by the time the most important games roll around, it's gorgeous out—rather than it starting nice but slowly getting worse as the season goes on to the point where you're playing crucial end-of-season games in the snow.

The February games are FAR from ideal, but I don't think it's really that big of a deal. Then again I'm not a current player nor a parent who has to sit in sub-freezing temps to watch Jimmy freeze his butt off on the bench. It wouldn't be the worst idea to push the season back a week from where it is, or install a universal start date of, say, Feb. 15, to at least minimize the sport's exposure to February—assuming that it could be done logistically. I don't think pushing games out of the month of February entirely is realistic.

Most schools have a separate field hockey field as it is different from regular turf. Soccer and Lacrosse would have to share practice fields at many schools but plenty of schools have multiple fields available for practices. On Sundays there is absolutley nothing going on and the games would have ten times the student interest they do in February. Regarding the weather it's not even close I go to many field hockey games in the mid atlantic and for the first two months of the season I go in shorts. They just had the final four last weekend and the coldest game a team I follow from New Jersey played was high forties. In lacrosse the first two months of the season are played in weather between 20 and high thirties. April lightens up to the forties and low fifties and it rains 50% of the month. For the 16 out of 73 that play in May they get some reasonable weather and if you make the final four you can wear shorts. If you think the February games aren't "really that big of a deal" you don't go to many, it's brutal for the players and the few fans that actually show up. Some of my field hockey friends were complaining that a game was played in the high forties in November, I laughed. It could and should be done but I don't think it will.

[a fan]

-I like the idea of starting the tournament on Memorial Day weekend at higher seeds. That way you keep the tradition, and it is a good kickoff to summer vacation. With the youth and h.s lax seasons ending around then, I know a lot of families that plan their memorial day around attending a college lax event. With different local colleges hosting, that means less time on roads and makes travel easier for families..

But these games are at the home fields of some pretty out of the way schools, are they not?

And if you START the tournament that late in May, you're guaranteeing that student fans have left for the summer, no?

And families can't plan to go to the game, because home seeds are announced just a week before the games.

Sounds like a recipe for worse attendance than we already have.....

[wgdsr]

Start 1ater and p1ay m0re weekday games, mic dr0p,

^^^ this

Really difficult to disagree with any of his points:

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... rmat/36617

i actually don't get it. attendance actually hasn't declined over the last 7 years... it's gone up. from the mid-to low 50s for the sat/mon to over 64K in 2019.
so how are we "solving" his identified problem, which doesn't exist, by putting the semis and finals in stadiums (34/38k and 25/18k) that don't even add up to the latest attendance figures?

the issue of february games is simple -- set an earliest start time. we already know the coaches can't police themselves unless rules are in place, so get on with it if it's a problem. and it is. they've chosen -- in the face of more games in general being added to schedules -- to extending the season vs. mid-week games. they've chosen to gameplan and play in ridiculous weather, which i believe is the wrong choice, but if the market bears for it set a rule.

then, they'll have no choice but to lighten up the number of games or play a couple more mid-week. btw, if the committee continues on with just putting teams in the tournament based on rpi, they don't need to play more games anymore. it won't matter how many top teams you actually beat, just what your rpi is. problem solved.

[Cooter]

I could see moving the NCAA final game from Memorial Day to the next weekend. While I don't know that this would help attendance, It would give the two teams time to prepare for the biggest game of the year - and lead to a better championship game.

Of course, one would lose the lacrosse weekend flavor of having a final four, but it would give them time to hype the NCAA final lacrosse game.
If they wanted to make it more of an event, they could join it with the Women's D1 final or Men's D3 final for a double header.

[bearlaxfan]

If you want to grow the game beyond the stereotypical socioeconomic group (say top 20% by income) Finals weekend, whether Mem Day or otherwise, should maintain its current form: 2 separate weekends with separate travel costs and extra workdays off can be a financial burden for some families and fans of whichever teams are good enough to make the finals. And it would be an extra cost for those two fortunate schools at a time when every extra penny is scrutinzed.

[PicLax]

Moving to fall a non-starter. Too much competition with soccer/field hockey/football for facility and field use. While might not be an issue for some D1 programs, would be impossible for many D1 and probably all D2/D3 programs. Attendance and TV viewership would also fall competing against football.
Playing past Memorial Day in the spring difficult on schools (keeping dorms and facilities open, pushing summer activities to the right) as well as players. Memorial Day FF also allows people to attend/view on the holiday Monday. Need to keep it as the culminating weekend.
Solution is starting season two weeks later, universally. Better chance of avoiding freezing weather and games that no one wants to attend - fans or players. Make up for it by scheduling mid-week games. Every team plays a couple of Tuesday evening games throughout the season. Great for fans to attend or watch on TV.

[OCanada]

The FF solution did not begin until after the tournament began in 1971. It was pushed by the then commissioner of the ECAC.

The start time for the final was set so most fans would be in the road home at a convenient time. Memorial Day weekend was a three day weekend so it worked. Schedule the title game and go home.


The FF was moved to professional stadia for a number of reasons. Among them no university wanted to host the tournament, on campus required volunteers to give up their holidays and/or schedule vacations around them, Professionslb execution of ticketing, parking, food and other amenities was the gain.

Extending also shortens vacation windows for staff and the coaches and players of the teams involved. Thst has become a sticking point in trying to find hosts

Some one can run the numbers but I don’t see how this doesn’t adversely impact revenue and attendance. Using on campus sites lowers the stadia costs but there are offsets. Poorer access, poorer concessions, poorer parking, poorter facilities etc.





The logistics of hosting a FF or even a single game final can be daunting if they are a smaller venue in that they probably don’t have the staff. Corrigan sports is still the default provider of memory serves.

Extending into June begins to interfere with summer school and camps Ned for facilities, dining etc. as well as vacation scheduling for families.

[OCanada]

The FF solution did not begin until after the tournament began in 1971. It was pushed by the then commissioner of the ECAC.

The start time for the final was set so most fans would be in the road home at a convenient time. Memorial Day weekend was a three day weekend so it worked. Schedule the title game and go home.


The FF was moved to professional stadia for a number of reasons. Among them no university wanted to host the tournament, on campus required volunteers to give up their holidays and/or schedule vacations around them, Professionslb execution of ticketing, parking, food and other amenities was the gain.

Extending also shortens vacation windows for staff and the coaches and players of the teams involved. Thst has become a sticking point in trying to find hosts

Some one can run the numbers but I don’t see how this doesn’t adversely impact revenue and attendance. Using on campus sites lowers the stadia costs but there are offsets. Poorer access, poorer concessions, poorer parking, poorter facilities etc.





The logistics of hosting a FF or even a single game final can be daunting if they are a smaller venue in that they probably don’t have the staff. Corrigan sports is still the default provider of memory serves.

Extending into June begins to interfere with summer school and camps Ned for facilities, dining etc. as well as vacation scheduling for families.

[HooDat]

How about we recognize that these kids are all student athletes. Maybe we don't need to play so many games? Maybe STUDENT athletes need some time to study and attend class during the week? Maybe it is perfectly OK to have the season end no later than Memorial Day so that these young men can fit other things into their lives? Maybe leave it alone? Maybe everything doesn't have to keep expanding and having the ante upped to the point of stupidity?

now someone go tell those kids to get off my lawn!

[Cooter]

If you want to grow the game beyond the stereotypical socioeconomic group (say top 20% by income) Finals weekend, whether Mem Day or otherwise, should maintain its current form: 2 separate weekends with separate travel costs and extra workdays off can be a financial burden for some families and fans of whichever teams are good enough to make the finals. And it would be an extra cost for those two fortunate schools at a time when every extra penny is scrutinzed.

It should be hoped that it doesn't come down to that the family of teams that make the finals are a large chunk of the attendance.

It could be an increase in costs for families coming from a long ways off (CA, TX,...). Although they wouldn't have to stay as long if they did come. It could be advantageous for families of teams that happened to lose in the semifinals. Of course, the games would be televised.

-When you say, "whether Mem Day or otherwise", the logic of your final statement does not hold, because if you moved the final four to a later weekend, then 4 teams would have to spend the extra costs.

[Kinduv]

1 was qu0ted!!!!