Trump's Russian Collusion

[Kismet]

My point is not complicated. The NYT has become, by their own admission, a one story newspaper.
Trump Bad. Every day there must be a headline story that supports that meme.
That is what their readers demand & pay for.

I recommend the Showtime documentary series The Fourth Estate.
It's entertaining & now seems ironic.
It shows the extent to which the Times would go to generate their daily bombshells.
Now knowing how their story line fizzled out, it's rather pathetic.

It wasn't too long ago you were trashing the series (self-licking was the term you used). Now you are recommending it? Sadly, typical.

[Typical Lax Dad]

My point is not complicated. The NYT has become, by their own admission, a one story newspaper.
Trump Bad. Every day there must be a headline story that supports that meme.
That is what their readers demand & pay for.

I recommend the Showtime documentary series The Fourth Estate.
It's entertaining & now seems ironic.
It shows the extent to which the Times would go to generate their daily bombshells.
Now knowing how their story line fizzled out, it's rather pathetic.

It wasn't too long ago you were trashing the series (self-licking was the term you used). Now you are recommending it? Sadly, typical.

Yep. It’s sad. Have a happy thanksgiving.

[njbill]

I recommend the Showtime documentary series The Fourth Estate.
It's entertaining & now seems ironic.
It shows the extent to which the Times would go to generate their daily bombshells.
Now knowing how their story line fizzled out, it's rather pathetic.

I watched that series and enjoyed it. I wish they had continued it. Your takeaway seems to be that the series showed the Times puts spin on stories. Mine was just the opposite. I thought it showed how hard they work to try to get things right under the immense time pressures that now exist in their industry.

During Watergate, Nixon hated the Washington Post (“no reporter from the Washington Post is ever to be permitted in the White House”). Trump has a similar hatred of the press. As it did with Nixon and the Post, I think history will smile very kindly on the media and very critically of Trump.

[cradleandshoot]

MD - I was attending to a matter in Destin, FL at Jerry Jones house - yep I run in tight circles - weather was a tad chilly - where is your place? Still have never run into a Dartmouth or Hopkins grad - you all must go one to be doctors and lawyers excluding Bloomberg - that is interesting he is running for Prez. BTW reality smacks you in the face daily, it is how you deal with reality that matters. I grew up poor unlike many out here so I can get the reality - maybe you can as well over time - unimpressed with the college or degree it is what you do with it that matters.

RedfromMI - my grandfather was mayor of TC - my point was Russia was a point - many bad actors messing in our elections including Ukraine - step up as it ain't just the Russians messing- sorry I was down south for almost a week .

72 - had Hopkins had a good lax team, my son would have run into them in the NCAA's - NOPE. Homewood must have been built and created in 1920's? The turf must be original, I remember playing on that in the 1980's - be relevant again and maybe I would meet a Hopkins grad finally

afan, not a Fox fan- WSJ.

moving on to censuring - another bust. Schiff's eyes will really be bulging

We're over near Stuart. Harbour Ridge.
A lot of midwesterners.

Of course the college/degree matters far less than "what you do with it that matters". No argument there. Bugs me too when some see that as more than just one, rather early, indicator of 'smarts' and 'hard academic work'. Just not sure why someone earning a degree from a highly selective school, much less graduating with honors while playing a sport, would be seen as a negative...but it apparently it is for some folks. Seems strange to me, but then again, a lot of stuff seems strange to me these days.

And no, Ukraine didn't get involved in our election in '16. That's Trump/Fox/OANN/RT BS.
Some bad actors trying to get involved in '20, yes, but that's the Guiliani thread.

And no, Ukraine didn't get involved in our election in '16

You gots proof of that hombre? I am guessing that is your opinion. I can say that because since nobody in the US government ever investigated Ukraine meddling in 2016... we don't really know how many nations may have been diddle fritzing in our elections.

What we do know is that the conspiracy theory being peddled by Trump and the others is indeed total BS, emanating from Putin. According to our entire IC, and as validated by the heads of those agencies, all Trump appointees, and as further validated by the GOP Senate Intelligence Committee. Yes, they actually did investigate who was meddling and how and who wasn't.

Not sure anything can be locked down more than that.

This conspiracy theory is being described by the professionals as entirely Russian propaganda...but you want to buy Russian propaganda, go for it.

One thing for certain in this whole sordid affair is that there are no shortage of conspiracy theories. It is akin to the grassy knoll on steroids. There are a ton of possibilities to bounce back and forth. There just is not much proof to back any of them up. I wonder how our intell people could realistically put together anything. That would require a mole inside the Putin camp. Thatwould be a mole that would have a very short life span when discovered.

cradle,
I don't know whether there's human intelligence involved ("a mole"), or how much such, but I do know that computers leave tracks and such have been referenced, albeit obliquely, in various reports. These are not only understood by the IC but also have been explained to the Senate Intelligence Committee. Apparently, the evidence is overwhelming.

And it is 100% contrary to the BS about Ukraine (Crowdstrike) etc being peddled by Putin and Trump as an alternate theory.

One of the real shames of the Trump era has been this dumbing down of our public's capacity to recognize when those with expertise and experience actually do 'know' something with a very high degree of certainty and specificity, as is this case.

There's always been a 'dumb' factor in America, those highly suggestible folks willing to believe cockamamy conspiracy theories, but this has grown quite substantially, led by the 'useful idiot' in the White House.

Now he wants you to believe that he didn't send Rudy to Ukraine, not sure what he was doing there, has other clients other than him, Rudy was personally offended during the campaign...do you believe this new nonsense that Rudy wasn't actually representing him in Ukraine?

I do not doubt our intell people know a lot about what went on. I am just cynical enough to believe that Putin is well aware of evidence that would be left on a computer in any of these shenanigans. This becomes a cat and mouse game as to what intell is believable and what you are being spoon fed. I have no idea what the truth is. I also believe that Putins folks are smart enough to send our folks on a bunch of high tech wild goose chases. I am not much of a crook but I understand rule #1 is do not use a computer when doing your dirty dealings. At least if you do not want anybody finding what it is your up to.

jiminy cradle, that's some mighty big ostrich behavior there. You do understand that the hacking was done by computer and the bots and trolls were done by computer? This really ain't rocket science to understand that computers were used. And that such leaves tracks?

Now you imagine that Putin had someone leave those tracks leading back to Russian military intelligence on purpose???

Wow, the desperation to believe anything, I mean anything, other than that our IC nailed it down as the Russians...and very specific Russians at that.

youth appears to be right with you in such desperation.

And in your own desperation you constantly tell all of us about your Republican heritage. I know enough Republicans to understand that whatever you claim to be... you are not a Republican. The Republicans that I know would have given you the bums rush out the door, kicked you in your arse to the curb and informed you don't try and come back in. The Republican party is fouled up enough as it is, they don't need the blue blood Rockefellers such as yourself sending them farther into the abyss. One thing I can give your ilk of the republican party mucho credit for MD. Your type of snowflake Republican does one thing remarkably well.. you all are experts in the art of giving concession speeches when you get your asses handed to you on election night.

Mittens was a really swell guy that the Democrats eviscerated and turned into a snowflake Republican loser. I'm guessing Mittens was your perfect candidate. A candy ass light weight who would not say sheepdip about his Democrat opponents if his mouth was full of it. YOU MR MD are everything that is wrong with the Republican party. Trump may be an obnoxious weed and he ain't even a Republican. He is the only person posing as a republican with the balls to actually criticize Democrats and their supporters in the MSM. I am certain MD that you are more than comfy cozy listening to all those concession speeches. You represent the gutless, spineless and testicle less members of your party. Your pandering to all the FLP folks on this forum just to gain their approval tells me all I need to know about your intestinal fortitude. Carry on with your mission sir. Go sip some bubbly and snarf down some caviar and discuss all of the important issues of the day. If you are a Republican... they freaking deserve you 100%

cradle, you do seem to have quite the complex.
Was any of that diatribe remotely responsive and on point?

It was not that complicated to figure out. You in no way resemble any of the Republicans that I know. I don't know where you are coming from. You are a lifelong Republican that posts here all the time how much you dislike your own party. If you don't like them so much, become a Democrat. You spend all of your time here sounding like one. Were you upset at the treatment Mittens received when he was running for POTUS? I am guessing that Mittens was your kind of Republican. He is soft spoken, really nice hair, mild mannered and all around good guy. The Democrats put him through the meat grinder and made him look like a far right wing dirtbag. That is how the good guy Republicans you admire so much are treated. What is sad IMO MD is you don't acknowledge that fact nor do you seem to care. I did not like Mittens because I dislike all Republicans just out of principle. I was flabbergasted at the extent the Democrats dragged him through the mud and humiliated him at every chance. So much for good character and being a respectable and honest good guy. That sure didn't do Mittens very much good now did it? In retrospect... Mittens gave an awesome concession speech.

[MDlaxfan76]

As I said, cradle, you have quite the complex.

You dislike Republicans "out of principle" and yet hate the Democrats too.

And clearly you dislike me...because I'm not like other Republicans you know???

Is your dislike for me supposed to bother me?

And is any aspect of your attack on me personally actually responsive to the prior discussion or otherwise on point?

Yes, I'm a lifelong Republican, always vote both general and midterms, have never voted D in a Presidential election before. Conservative in tone, conservative fiscally, moderate-progressive socially, forward leaning engagement internationally, heavy on soft power over hard power whenever possible. Yup, that description is no longer welcome in the Trumpist cowed GOP. In todays' Trumpist GOP you are expected to actually hate and despise the Dems. Sorry, that's not me.

My only point is that folks like me are not going to vote for Trump in 2020. Some may not vote at all, some may vote third party like I did in 2016, some may vote D for the first time in their lives. I will be doing the latter even if it's someone I really hope isn't the nominee for them.

But I'm not prepared to become a Democrat. To the contrary, I want Trumpism to suffer an ignominious defeat, sufficient to break the fever hold over the GOP. I want the GOP to re-boot and compete not as an anti-science, reactionary, bigoted, nativist, aggressively authoritarian movement but rather as an intellectually sound counterweight to the left.

Democracy needs that balance.

[seacoaster]

Both Romney and McCain were good candidates, and both lost to a generational political talent. They both embodied a lot about the GOP that is -- or was -- absolutely standard fare, and both got pushed into corners that were more to the right than they really were, by the so-called activist base that imposed litmus tests on them, particularly in the primaries. If McCain hadn't chosen Palin, I think he may have been the President and probably would have been a pretty fair one. Neither of them would have been impeached had they become President, because both had a basic -- and I mean fundamental -- moral compass. The GOP's two losses in 2007 and 2011 could have pushed the party into changing back to the party of Eisenhower and Rockefeller. Instead, it was seduced by the loud, battering, and ratings-helpful voices of division, and aimed the country at a defeat in the popular vote and a narrow electoral college win.

C&S's ranting, hysteria-laden, middle-school'ish (c'mon man, "Mittens"?) diatribes about MDLaxfan's suitability as a Republican is an outcome of this: he has been seduced into division. He sees himself as a social victim who the politicians "don't hear" and "don't care about." Nobody loves him. Sad face emoji....

MDLaxfan isn't perfect. But he also hasn't gone anywhere; his party departed on a train to the Pity Party.

[cradleandshoot]

As I said, cradle, you have quite the complex.

You dislike Republicans "out of principle" and yet hate the Democrats too.

And clearly you dislike me...because I'm not like other Republicans you know???

Is your dislike for me supposed to bother me?

And is any aspect of your attack on me personally actually responsive to the prior discussion or otherwise on point?

Yes, I'm a lifelong Republican, always vote both general and midterms, have never voted D in a Presidential election before. Conservative in tone, conservative fiscally, moderate-progressive socially, forward leaning engagement internationally, heavy on soft power over hard power whenever possible. Yup, that description is no longer welcome in the Trumpist cowed GOP. In todays' Trumpist GOP you are expected to actually hate and despise the Dems. Sorry, that's not me.

My only point is that folks like me are not going to vote for Trump in 2020. Some may not vote at all, some may vote third party like I did in 2016, some may vote D for the first time in their lives. I will be doing the latter even if it's someone I really hope isn't the nominee for them.

But I'm not prepared to become a Democrat. To the contrary, I want Trumpism to suffer an ignominious defeat, sufficient to break the fever hold over the GOP. I want the GOP to re-boot and compete not as an anti-science, reactionary, bigoted, nativist, aggressively authoritarian movement but rather as an intellectually sound counterweight to the left.

Democracy needs that balance.

You have me all wrong. I do not dislike you. I just do not understand what type of Republican you are. You confuse the hell out of me. You do understand you rip on your party here all the time and seem to always be in agreement with every FLP person that posts on this forum. I don't recall you EVER being critical of anything they post. I have come to my own conclusion that you are too afraid to draw their wrath and have them jump on your back. I would much appreciate you growing a back bone and standing up for your party once in awhile. It is okay to speak your mind. My experience tells me that when the folks here on the FLP side want to rip on you, you probably have hit a raw nerve with them. I hope you and your family have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

My wife and I are getting ready to head to my sisters house for our own celebration. the best part is that politics never ever enters into the days enjoyment. Outside of my sister and my kids, all of my family have passed on. I refuse to let politics ruin that. One last thought, I hope you never think I honestly dislike you. I just have a problem when it comes to being able to filter the thoughts in my head. When the thought is there it comes out the way it comes out. The people that I truly dislike are the people I will not talk to or respond to at all. I may not have the first clue about what kind of Republican you are, but we have more in common than you think. You are able to express your opinion in a more respectful manner than I do at times. I am working on that but I still have a very long ways to go.

[cradleandshoot]

Both Romney and McCain were good candidates, and both lost to a generational political talent. They both embodied a lot about the GOP that is -- or was -- absolutely standard fare, and both got pushed into corners that were more to the right than they really were, by the so-called activist base that imposed litmus tests on them, particularly in the primaries. If McCain hadn't chosen Palin, I think he may have been the President and probably would have been a pretty fair one. Neither of them would have been impeached had they become President, because both had a basic -- and I mean fundamental -- moral compass. The GOP's two losses in 2007 and 2011 could have pushed the party into changing back to the party of Eisenhower and Rockefeller. Instead, it was seduced by the loud, battering, and ratings-helpful voices of division, and aimed the country at a defeat in the popular vote and a narrow electoral college win.

C&S's ranting, hysteria-laden, middle-school'ish (c'mon man, "Mittens"?) diatribes about MDLaxfan's suitability as a Republican is an outcome of this: he has been seduced into division. He sees himself as a social victim who the politicians "don't hear" and "don't care about." Nobody loves him. Sad face emoji....

MDLaxfan isn't perfect. But he also hasn't gone anywhere; his party departed on a train to the Pity Party.

I love you too coaster. It is not like you are not just has guilty as hysterical ranting and raving as I am prone to doing. What is wrong with Mittens? It is a hell of a lot nicer than a lot of the things the Democrats called him when he was running for POTUS, You must have forgot about that though.

[MDlaxfan76]

As I said, cradle, you have quite the complex.

You dislike Republicans "out of principle" and yet hate the Democrats too.

And clearly you dislike me...because I'm not like other Republicans you know???

Is your dislike for me supposed to bother me?

And is any aspect of your attack on me personally actually responsive to the prior discussion or otherwise on point?

Yes, I'm a lifelong Republican, always vote both general and midterms, have never voted D in a Presidential election before. Conservative in tone, conservative fiscally, moderate-progressive socially, forward leaning engagement internationally, heavy on soft power over hard power whenever possible. Yup, that description is no longer welcome in the Trumpist cowed GOP. In todays' Trumpist GOP you are expected to actually hate and despise the Dems. Sorry, that's not me.

My only point is that folks like me are not going to vote for Trump in 2020. Some may not vote at all, some may vote third party like I did in 2016, some may vote D for the first time in their lives. I will be doing the latter even if it's someone I really hope isn't the nominee for them.

But I'm not prepared to become a Democrat. To the contrary, I want Trumpism to suffer an ignominious defeat, sufficient to break the fever hold over the GOP. I want the GOP to re-boot and compete not as an anti-science, reactionary, bigoted, nativist, aggressively authoritarian movement but rather as an intellectually sound counterweight to the left.

Democracy needs that balance.

You have me all wrong. I do not dislike you. I just do not understand what type of Republican you are. You confuse the hell out of me. You do understand you rip on your party here all the time and seem to always be in agreement with every FLP person that posts on this forum. I don't recall you EVER being critical of anything they post. I have come to my own conclusion that you are too afraid to draw their wrath and have them jump on your back. I would much appreciate you growing a back bone and standing up for your party once in awhile. It is okay to speak your mind. My experience tells me that when the folks here on the FLP side want to rip on you, you probably have hit a raw nerve with them. I hope you and your family have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

My wife and I are getting ready to head to my sisters house for our own celebration. the best part is that politics never ever enters into the days enjoyment. Outside of my sister and my kids, all of my family have passed on. I refuse to let politics ruin that. One last thought, I hope you never think I honestly dislike you. I just have a problem when it comes to being able to filter the thoughts in my head. When the thought is there it comes out the way it comes out. The people that I truly dislike are the people I will not talk to or respond to at all. I may not have the first clue about what kind of Republican you are, but we have more in common than you think. You are able to express your opinion in a more respectful manner than I do at times. I am working on that but I still have a very long ways to go.

Well, if you don't actually "dislike" me, how about cutting out the dripping disdain ala this bit of charm:

"I am certain MD that you are more than comfy cozy listening to all those concession speeches. You represent the gutless, spineless and testicle less members of your party. Your pandering to all the FLP folks on this forum just to gain their approval tells me all I need to know about your intestinal fortitude."

Listen, I'm just not in the angry, hate the other guy, simply because of Red team Blue Team, mode that some on both the left and the right seem to want to always do. I reject that regardless of party.

Right now, the folks in power, serious power, are the worst of the worst in that regard. They are also beyond simply dishonest and corrupt, they are truly dangerous. Of course, that's just my opinion. If that seems to make me come across as allied with others who likewise see Trump and his cronies and enablers that way, so be it.

I'm also much more likely to be in agreement with those leaning progressive in social matters than I am those who are bigoted, nativists in their leanings. I come by that honestly and can indeed securely say that my views used to be representative of a large part of the GOP, often the most ascendant wing.

But boy oh boy are those views remotely tolerated by the Trumpists? Nope.

But here's the even stranger aspect: for many Trumpists, the ideological leanings seem irrelevant, the only thing that matters is loyalty/fealty to Trump. The heck with the Constitution even.

Thank you for the kind wishes re Thanksgiving; same to you and yours.
I'm about to go hit a few golf balls with my 84 yr old mom and my wife (who like me doesn't play this game) and then we'll enjoy a Thanksgiving dinner with friends. First Thanksgiving without my dad.

We too plan to steer away from politics and focus instead on our many blessings. Peace, brother.

[old salt]

My point is not complicated. The NYT has become, by their own admission, a one story newspaper.
Trump Bad. Every day there must be a headline story that supports that meme.
That is what their readers demand & pay for.

I recommend the Showtime documentary series The Fourth Estate.
It's entertaining & now seems ironic.
It shows the extent to which the Times would go to generate their daily bombshells.
Now knowing how their story line fizzled out, it's rather pathetic.

It wasn't too long ago you were trashing the series (self-licking was the term you used). Now you are recommending it? Sadly, typical.

Yep. It’s sad. Have a happy thanksgiving.

You took my recommendation as a positive ? It's now illustrative of how hard they worked to fabricate their major story line.
The self-licking Pulitzer celebration is particularly delicious, given the way the their bombshells blewback & they were hoisted with their own petard via a leak of their staff meeting.
I recommend the documentary as a cautionary tale on runaway advocacy journalism.

I recommend the Showtime documentary series The Fourth Estate.
It's entertaining & now seems ironic.
It shows the extent to which the Times would go to generate their daily bombshells.
Now knowing how their story line fizzled out, it's rather pathetic.

I watched that series and enjoyed it. I wish they had continued it. Your takeaway seems to be that the series showed the Times puts spin on stories. Mine was just the opposite. I thought it showed how hard they work to try to get things right under the immense time pressures that now exist in their industry.

During Watergate, Nixon hated the Washington Post (“no reporter from the Washington Post is ever to be permitted in the White House”). Trump has a similar hatred of the press. As it did with Nixon and the Post, I think history will smile very kindly on the media and very critically of Trump.

They worked hard to create stories where there were none. Flogging their inside sources to hype any scrap of information into a major headline story. They have zero objectivity.

[a fan]

From your perspective? Sure. There's "no story there".

Remind me again: how many felony convictions are we up to now for Trump associates? So sure. If you don't count that, and the fact that Mueller told us that yes, Trump and his crew TRIED to collude with Russia....and then as a kicker, add that Mueller told us that you can't indict Trump for obstruction of Justice while he is POTUS? Then there's all the nonstop lying about anything Russia by anyone who's anywhere near Trump.

Yep. If you ignore all that? NYTimes is insane for wasting ink, and there was "no story" to be found surrounding Trump and Russia. They should have covered the Westminster Dog Show instead.

Oddly, you have the exact opposite opinion when it comes to media investigating Hunter Biden. That, obviously, clearly is an enormous story, while Trump and his crew's felonious work was a nothing sandwich.

Happy thanksgiving, old salt!

[Typical Lax Dad]

My point is not complicated. The NYT has become, by their own admission, a one story newspaper.
Trump Bad. Every day there must be a headline story that supports that meme.
That is what their readers demand & pay for.

I recommend the Showtime documentary series The Fourth Estate.
It's entertaining & now seems ironic.
It shows the extent to which the Times would go to generate their daily bombshells.
Now knowing how their story line fizzled out, it's rather pathetic.

It wasn't too long ago you were trashing the series (self-licking was the term you used). Now you are recommending it? Sadly, typical.

Yep. It’s sad. Have a happy thanksgiving.

You took my recommendation as a positive ? It's now illustrative of how hard they worked to fabricate their major story line.
The self-licking Pulitzer celebration is particularly delicious, given the way the their bombshells blewback & they were hoisted with their own petard via a leak of their staff meeting.
I recommend the documentary as a cautionary tale on runaway advocacy journalism.

I recommend the Showtime documentary series The Fourth Estate.
It's entertaining & now seems ironic.
It shows the extent to which the Times would go to generate their daily bombshells.
Now knowing how their story line fizzled out, it's rather pathetic.

I watched that series and enjoyed it. I wish they had continued it. Your takeaway seems to be that the series showed the Times puts spin on stories. Mine was just the opposite. I thought it showed how hard they work to try to get things right under the immense time pressures that now exist in their industry.

During Watergate, Nixon hated the Washington Post (“no reporter from the Washington Post is ever to be permitted in the White House”). Trump has a similar hatred of the press. As it did with Nixon and the Post, I think history will smile very kindly on the media and very critically of Trump.

They worked hard to create stories where their were none. Flogging their inside sources to hype any scrap of information into a major headline story. They have zero objectivity.

How many libel laws have the NYT lost for fabricating stories. Have a nap.

[old salt]

...& sleep through a Bills win. (burp !)

They haven't been sued by Nunes yet.

[Typical Lax Dad]

...& sleep through a Bills win. (burp !)

They haven't been sued by Nunes yet.

Your hero. Best of luck to him.

[njbill]

How is Nunes’ case against the cow going?

[a fan]

The cow isn't talking.

[cradleandshoot]

As I said, cradle, you have quite the complex.

You dislike Republicans "out of principle" and yet hate the Democrats too.

And clearly you dislike me...because I'm not like other Republicans you know???

Is your dislike for me supposed to bother me?

And is any aspect of your attack on me personally actually responsive to the prior discussion or otherwise on point?

Yes, I'm a lifelong Republican, always vote both general and midterms, have never voted D in a Presidential election before. Conservative in tone, conservative fiscally, moderate-progressive socially, forward leaning engagement internationally, heavy on soft power over hard power whenever possible. Yup, that description is no longer welcome in the Trumpist cowed GOP. In todays' Trumpist GOP you are expected to actually hate and despise the Dems. Sorry, that's not me.

My only point is that folks like me are not going to vote for Trump in 2020. Some may not vote at all, some may vote third party like I did in 2016, some may vote D for the first time in their lives. I will be doing the latter even if it's someone I really hope isn't the nominee for them.

But I'm not prepared to become a Democrat. To the contrary, I want Trumpism to suffer an ignominious defeat, sufficient to break the fever hold over the GOP. I want the GOP to re-boot and compete not as an anti-science, reactionary, bigoted, nativist, aggressively authoritarian movement but rather as an intellectually sound counterweight to the left.

Democracy needs that balance.

You have me all wrong. I do not dislike you. I just do not understand what type of Republican you are. You confuse the hell out of me. You do understand you rip on your party here all the time and seem to always be in agreement with every FLP person that posts on this forum. I don't recall you EVER being critical of anything they post. I have come to my own conclusion that you are too afraid to draw their wrath and have them jump on your back. I would much appreciate you growing a back bone and standing up for your party once in awhile. It is okay to speak your mind. My experience tells me that when the folks here on the FLP side want to rip on you, you probably have hit a raw nerve with them. I hope you and your family have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

My wife and I are getting ready to head to my sisters house for our own celebration. the best part is that politics never ever enters into the days enjoyment. Outside of my sister and my kids, all of my family have passed on. I refuse to let politics ruin that. One last thought, I hope you never think I honestly dislike you. I just have a problem when it comes to being able to filter the thoughts in my head. When the thought is there it comes out the way it comes out. The people that I truly dislike are the people I will not talk to or respond to at all. I may not have the first clue about what kind of Republican you are, but we have more in common than you think. You are able to express your opinion in a more respectful manner than I do at times. I am working on that but I still have a very long ways to go.

Well, if you don't actually "dislike" me, how about cutting out the dripping disdain ala this bit of charm:

"I am certain MD that you are more than comfy cozy listening to all those concession speeches. You represent the gutless, spineless and testicle less members of your party. Your pandering to all the FLP folks on this forum just to gain their approval tells me all I need to know about your intestinal fortitude."

Listen, I'm just not in the angry, hate the other guy, simply because of Red team Blue Team, mode that some on both the left and the right seem to want to always do. I reject that regardless of party.

Right now, the folks in power, serious power, are the worst of the worst in that regard. They are also beyond simply dishonest and corrupt, they are truly dangerous. Of course, that's just my opinion. If that seems to make me come across as allied with others who likewise see Trump and his cronies and enablers that way, so be it.

I'm also much more likely to be in agreement with those leaning progressive in social matters than I am those who are bigoted, nativists in their leanings. I come by that honestly and can indeed securely say that my views used to be representative of a large part of the GOP, often the most ascendant wing.

But boy oh boy are those views remotely tolerated by the Trumpists? Nope.

But here's the even stranger aspect: for many Trumpists, the ideological leanings seem irrelevant, the only thing that matters is loyalty/fealty to Trump. The heck with the Constitution even.

Thank you for the kind wishes re Thanksgiving; same to you and yours.
I'm about to go hit a few golf balls with my 84 yr old mom and my wife (who like me doesn't play this game) and then we'll enjoy a Thanksgiving dinner with friends. First Thanksgiving without my dad.

We too plan to steer away from politics and focus instead on our many blessings. Peace, brother.

"I am certain MD that you are more than comfy cozy listening to all those concession speeches. You represent the gutless, spineless and testicle less members of your party. Your pandering to all the FLP folks on this forum just to gain their approval tells me all I need to know about your intestinal fortitude."

I use similar vernacular to many of my friends and coworkers. The statement says what it says. IMO there is a huge problem in the Republican party of having the courage to stand up for what you believe in while under harsh criticism from the Democrats and the media. I do believe you are pandering to most of the FLP folks on this forum because you rarely if ever call them out when they spout hooey. If I did not like you or respect you I would not respond to you at all. I admit I can be way too blunt with what I say and how I say it. I will never be a diplomat but I will never pee on your leg and tell you it is raining out.

[MDlaxfan76]

As I said, cradle, you have quite the complex.

You dislike Republicans "out of principle" and yet hate the Democrats too.

And clearly you dislike me...because I'm not like other Republicans you know???

Is your dislike for me supposed to bother me?

And is any aspect of your attack on me personally actually responsive to the prior discussion or otherwise on point?

Yes, I'm a lifelong Republican, always vote both general and midterms, have never voted D in a Presidential election before. Conservative in tone, conservative fiscally, moderate-progressive socially, forward leaning engagement internationally, heavy on soft power over hard power whenever possible. Yup, that description is no longer welcome in the Trumpist cowed GOP. In todays' Trumpist GOP you are expected to actually hate and despise the Dems. Sorry, that's not me.

My only point is that folks like me are not going to vote for Trump in 2020. Some may not vote at all, some may vote third party like I did in 2016, some may vote D for the first time in their lives. I will be doing the latter even if it's someone I really hope isn't the nominee for them.

But I'm not prepared to become a Democrat. To the contrary, I want Trumpism to suffer an ignominious defeat, sufficient to break the fever hold over the GOP. I want the GOP to re-boot and compete not as an anti-science, reactionary, bigoted, nativist, aggressively authoritarian movement but rather as an intellectually sound counterweight to the left.

Democracy needs that balance.

You have me all wrong. I do not dislike you. I just do not understand what type of Republican you are. You confuse the hell out of me. You do understand you rip on your party here all the time and seem to always be in agreement with every FLP person that posts on this forum. I don't recall you EVER being critical of anything they post. I have come to my own conclusion that you are too afraid to draw their wrath and have them jump on your back. I would much appreciate you growing a back bone and standing up for your party once in awhile. It is okay to speak your mind. My experience tells me that when the folks here on the FLP side want to rip on you, you probably have hit a raw nerve with them. I hope you and your family have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

My wife and I are getting ready to head to my sisters house for our own celebration. the best part is that politics never ever enters into the days enjoyment. Outside of my sister and my kids, all of my family have passed on. I refuse to let politics ruin that. One last thought, I hope you never think I honestly dislike you. I just have a problem when it comes to being able to filter the thoughts in my head. When the thought is there it comes out the way it comes out. The people that I truly dislike are the people I will not talk to or respond to at all. I may not have the first clue about what kind of Republican you are, but we have more in common than you think. You are able to express your opinion in a more respectful manner than I do at times. I am working on that but I still have a very long ways to go.

Well, if you don't actually "dislike" me, how about cutting out the dripping disdain ala this bit of charm:

"I am certain MD that you are more than comfy cozy listening to all those concession speeches. You represent the gutless, spineless and testicle less members of your party. Your pandering to all the FLP folks on this forum just to gain their approval tells me all I need to know about your intestinal fortitude."

Listen, I'm just not in the angry, hate the other guy, simply because of Red team Blue Team, mode that some on both the left and the right seem to want to always do. I reject that regardless of party.

Right now, the folks in power, serious power, are the worst of the worst in that regard. They are also beyond simply dishonest and corrupt, they are truly dangerous. Of course, that's just my opinion. If that seems to make me come across as allied with others who likewise see Trump and his cronies and enablers that way, so be it.

I'm also much more likely to be in agreement with those leaning progressive in social matters than I am those who are bigoted, nativists in their leanings. I come by that honestly and can indeed securely say that my views used to be representative of a large part of the GOP, often the most ascendant wing.

But boy oh boy are those views remotely tolerated by the Trumpists? Nope.

But here's the even stranger aspect: for many Trumpists, the ideological leanings seem irrelevant, the only thing that matters is loyalty/fealty to Trump. The heck with the Constitution even.

Thank you for the kind wishes re Thanksgiving; same to you and yours.
I'm about to go hit a few golf balls with my 84 yr old mom and my wife (who like me doesn't play this game) and then we'll enjoy a Thanksgiving dinner with friends. First Thanksgiving without my dad.

We too plan to steer away from politics and focus instead on our many blessings. Peace, brother.

"I am certain MD that you are more than comfy cozy listening to all those concession speeches. You represent the gutless, spineless and testicle less members of your party. Your pandering to all the FLP folks on this forum just to gain their approval tells me all I need to know about your intestinal fortitude."

I use similar vernacular to many of my friends and coworkers. The statement says what it says. IMO there is a huge problem in the Republican party of having the courage to stand up for what you believe in while under harsh criticism from the Democrats and the media. I do believe you are pandering to most of the FLP folks on this forum because you rarely if ever call them out when they spout hooey. If I did not like you or respect you I would not respond to you at all. I admit I can be way too blunt with what I say and how I say it. I will never be a diplomat but I will never pee on your leg and tell you it is raining out.

I'd appreciate less personal attack. I don't know about you, but being described in any sense as "gutless, spineless and testicle less" would be an insult that would likely get you a punch in the mouth in a bar or backyard. Or if in a work setting, fired.

I don't know which posters you describe as "FLP" but I'm pretty sure I don't have any issue with challenging views with which I disagree. What you may be seeing, however, is that on many of the disagreements that get aired in these threads, I find myself agreeing more with those leaning 'left' than those leaning 'right'.

I think this is because of the extreme divisiveness of the Trumpist movement, the overt bigotry and nativism, the overt misogyny, the overt disrespect for the rule of law, the overt anti-science hubris...I can go on and on. I don't see those aspects of Trumpism as 'conservative', nor do I see this wild debt build-up as 'conservative'.

So, in this moment in which the power being exercised in America is being led by the most disreputable of human beings, surrounded by fawning sycophants as enablers and co-conspirators in fraud and in the destruction of positive norms of decency and honesty, it really isn't a surprise that this perspective aligns me more with others who feel the same than with those who apologize for or 'explain' Trump.

But you can bet your sweet bippy that I'll be strongly challenging of an authoritarian from the left if such emerges in response, if/when the pendulum of power swings the other way.

[ABV 8.3%]

Both Romney and McCain were good candidates, and both lost to a generational political talent. They both embodied a lot about the GOP that is -- or was -- absolutely standard fare, and both got pushed into corners that were more to the right than they really were, by the so-called activist base that imposed litmus tests on them, particularly in the primaries. If McCain hadn't chosen Palin, I think he may have been the President and probably would have been a pretty fair one. Neither of them would have been impeached had they become President, because both had a basic -- and I mean fundamental -- moral compass. The GOP's two losses in 2007 and 2011 could have pushed the party into changing back to the party of Eisenhower and Rockefeller. Instead, it was seduced by the loud, battering, and ratings-helpful voices of division, and aimed the country at a defeat in the popular vote and a narrow electoral college win.

C&S's ranting, hysteria-laden, middle-school'ish (c'mon man, "Mittens"?) diatribes about MDLaxfan's suitability as a Republican is an outcome of this: he has been seduced into division. He sees himself as a social victim who the politicians "don't hear" and "don't care about." Nobody loves him. Sad face emoji....

MDLaxfan isn't perfect. But he also hasn't gone anywhere; his party departed on a train to the Pity Party.

Senator John was the embodiment, nay the poster child, of the TAATS swamp......there are JUST some things people say that are unforgivable. I have several years to go before I reach McLames age. Hopefully I'll have better judement.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... johnmccain

The puzzle is explained partly by the US press, which barely reported the story. The Washington Post broke it in June 1998 but declined to relate the joke on the grounds it was “too vile to repeat” gee fellas......guess it's NOT the story that they DON'T cover that matter.

And, of course, calling illegals that cross the border as rapists, drug dealers, murders.....this wasn't TRUMP....this was MCLAME. HORRIBLE candidate. He was so stupid, he picked Palin.

"...drug and human smuggling, home invasions, MURDER " Donald S. said this on the 30 Rock escalators in 1986. Or...was it....a GOOD candidate.

Here comes the "your idiot whataboutisms, retorted, directly, to MY whataboutism comment......but, you can, I can't got it......COMMENTS.

[runrussellrun]

Trump being Trump.....such an embarassment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg