Trump's Russian Collusion

[old salt]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

[ABV 8.3%]

Assume that the story of the cell phone call in a Kiev restaurant checks out (likely since David Holmes apparently will testify tomorrow).

That one incident alone proves the whole case (even though there is an additional evidence mountain of corroboration). Direct ear witnesses hear Trump and Sondland talking about pushing the Ukes to investigate. And then Sondland admits/confesses that Trump just cares about Biden which is what Rudy is pushing.

There literally is no factual defense to that. There is literally no innocent explanation of those facts. What are you going to say -- it was a prank call and so it really wasn't Trump's voice? Sondland didn't know what he was talking about and it was all just a misundertanding?

There's also no doubt that the scheme is criminal bribery. 18 USC section 201(b)(2). There's also no doubt that Bribery is impeachable under the Constitution.

Now you know why Trump uses the language of a 5th grader. As sad as it sounds, the above is too complicated for most Americas. Heck, most of the Trump apologists here can't understand the above paragraph.

Hey, I have an idea! Let's cut funding to Education more! That'll help.

why even JOKE.....trump doesn't know how to cut funding. Put on hold......but not cut.

Did OBama get anything that would benefit the USA when he un Froze "aid" to Egypt ?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Assume that the story of the cell phone call in a Kiev restaurant checks out (likely since David Holmes apparently will testify tomorrow).

That one incident alone proves the whole case (even though there is an additional evidence mountain of corroboration). Direct ear witnesses hear Trump and Sondland talking about pushing the Ukes to investigate. And then Sondland admits/confesses that Trump just cares about Biden which is what Rudy is pushing.

There literally is no factual defense to that. There is literally no innocent explanation of those facts. What are you going to say -- it was a prank call and so it really wasn't Trump's voice? Sondland didn't know what he was talking about and it was all just a misundertanding?

There's also no doubt that the scheme is criminal bribery. 18 USC section 201(b)(2). There's also no doubt that Bribery is impeachable under the Constitution.

Now you know why Trump uses the language of a 5th grader. As sad as it sounds, the above is too complicated for most Americas. Heck, most of the Trump apologists here can't understand the above paragraph.

Hey, I have an idea! Let's cut funding to Education more! That'll help.

why even JOKE.....trump doesn't know how to cut funding. Put on hold......but not cut.

Did OBama get anything that would benefit the USA when he un Froze "aid" to Egypt ?

He didn’t get an investigation into Romney!!

[seacoaster]

Any bets whether the GOP dumps Castor (for Pollux?) and finds a lawyer who has examined a few witnesses before?

[old salt]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigoes & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

[Peter Brown]

End of day, this really is the situation where Trump shoots someone on 5th Avenue. And there's only two explanations for giving Trump a pass:

1. There's an election coming up.

2. Trump is not a GD liberal fool Democrat so I don't care what he did.

Just back from a business lunch in Gainesville, FLA (greatest state in the country, not for nothing). 2 women, 4 men. I asked at the end of the meal if anyone was paying attention to the Impeachment hearings; no one was (most common refrain: 'waste of money and time').

Then I asked them what they cared about most when it came to politics. #1 concern of the two women was late term abortion (before this lunch, I had zero idea what or if either was religious; they are). #1 concern of the men was economy, and they are happy with the one they have now.

Make of that what you will. I doubt that most of the board posters here know many people who care much about late-term abortion, but happy to be proven wrong.

The 'country' might not be hearing and seeing what many here are seeing and hearing.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigoes & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

You mean Ukraine’s aid wasn’t held up because the two teams couldn’t decide who was going to get credit for getting that government aid? I thought it was clear from yesterday’s testimony the the money was held up due to an inter-departmental turf war.....

[Typical Lax Dad]

End of day, this really is the situation where Trump shoots someone on 5th Avenue. And there's only two explanations for giving Trump a pass:

1. There's an election coming up.

2. Trump is not a GD liberal fool Democrat so I don't care what he did.

Just back from a business lunch in Gainesville, FLA (greatest state in the country, not for nothing). 2 women, 4 men. I asked at the end of the meal if anyone was paying attention to the Impeachment hearings; no one was (most common refrain: 'waste of money and time').

Then I asked them what they cared about most when it came to politics. #1 concern of the two women was late term abortion (before this lunch, I had zero idea what or if either was religious; they are). #1 concern of the men was economy, and they are happy with the one they have now.

Make of that what you will. I doubt that most of the board posters here know many people who care much about late-term abortion, but happy to be proven wrong.

The 'country' might not be hearing and seeing what many here are seeing and hearing.

Was with some of your aerospace buddies yesterday...they had different concerns....none with Boeing or Airbus, mind you.

[old salt]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigoes & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

You mean Ukraine’s aid wasn’t held up because the two teams couldn’t decide who was going to get credit for getting that government aid? I thought it was clear from yesterday’s testimony the the money was held up due to an inter-departmental turf war.....

The "who gets credit" red herring came from afan. I never raised it.
"Interagency turf battle" is my characterization of what this dispute is.
4 of the 5 members of the irregular channel were also govt officials.

[njbill]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigoes & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

Sure, back channels are old as the hills. They helped resolve the Cuban missile crisis. What Rudy was doing doesn’t qualify as a back channel, however. He was not doing anything to further U.S. diplomatic interests. Rather, he was seeking to further Trump’s personal and political interests. His efforts, in fact, undermined U.S. policy, which was to root out corruption in the Ukraine. Rudy was trying to further corruption. As soon as Taylor recognized that, he stopped supporting what Rudy and his gang of misfits were doing.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigoes & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

You mean Ukraine’s aid wasn’t held up because the two teams couldn’t decide who was going to get credit for getting that government aid? I thought it was clear from yesterday’s testimony the the money was held up due to an inter-departmental turf war.....

The "who gets credit" red herring came from afan. I never raised it.
"Interagency turf battle" is my characterization of what this dispute is.
4 of the 5 members of the irregular channel were also govt officials.

And Hillary was just careless with Benghazi... just a characterization... no biggie...

[old salt]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigoes & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

You mean Ukraine’s aid wasn’t held up because the two teams couldn’t decide who was going to get credit for getting that government aid? I thought it was clear from yesterday’s testimony the the money was held up due to an inter-departmental turf war.....

The "who gets credit" red herring came from afan. I never raised it.
"Interagency turf battle" is my characterization of what this dispute is.
4 of the 5 members of the irregular channel were also govt officials.

And Hillary was just careless with Benghazi... just a characterization... no biggie...

And Hillary wasn't prosecuted or impeached for Benghazi.
Trump should use her "what difference does it make ?" defense.

[jhu72]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigoes & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

Sure, back channels are old as the hills. They helped resolve the Cuban missile crisis. What Rudy was doing doesn’t qualify as a back channel, however. He was not doing anything to further U.S. diplomatic interests. Rather, he was seeking to further Trump’s personal and political interests. His efforts, in fact, undermined U.S. policy, which was to root out corruption in the Ukraine. Rudy was trying to further corruption. As soon as Taylor recognized that, he stopped supporting what Rudy and his gang of misfits were doing.

… and his own!

[Typical Lax Dad]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigoes & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

You mean Ukraine’s aid wasn’t held up because the two teams couldn’t decide who was going to get credit for getting that government aid? I thought it was clear from yesterday’s testimony the the money was held up due to an inter-departmental turf war.....

The "who gets credit" red herring came from afan. I never raised it.
"Interagency turf battle" is my characterization of what this dispute is.
4 of the 5 members of the irregular channel were also govt officials.

And Hillary was just careless with Benghazi... just a characterization... no biggie...

And Hillary wasn't prosecuted or impeached for Benghazi.
Trump should use her "what difference does it make ?" defense.

Trump doesn’t have to. You are doing swell.

[calourie]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigoes & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

You mean Ukraine’s aid wasn’t held up because the two teams couldn’t decide who was going to get credit for getting that government aid? I thought it was clear from yesterday’s testimony the the money was held up due to an inter-departmental turf war.....

The "who gets credit" red herring came from afan. I never raised it.
"Interagency turf battle" is my characterization of what this dispute is.
4 of the 5 members of the irregular channel were also govt officials.

And Hillary was just careless with Benghazi... just a characterization... no biggie...

And Hillary wasn't prosecuted or impeached for Benghazi.
Trump should use her "what difference does it make ?" defense.

Old Salt, as the argument goes, policy issues and disagreements are not or shouldn't be impeachable, soliciting foreign government interference for personal or political gain is. It's the gist of the Constitution you apparently at one time swore to uphold. Reread the darn thing and see if you don't agree one of its' main intentions if not its' main intention is to proscribe autocrats (like at the time King George, and now with the Dumpster) from gaining or consolidating power which is precisely who Trump is and what he was trying to do with his Ukraine shenanigans. Giuliani, Sondland and Mulvaney should all be indicted for signing up for this cockamamey back channell scheme to subvert the Constitution.

[Peter Brown]

Your head is so far up your you know what that you haven't caught on that both Hillary and Trump are skating. And Hillary supporters and Trump supporters like you will fall all over themselves, telling us that they didn't break laws.

'Trump supporters like me'...

a fan: my #1 obsession is civil liberties; do you truly think I am a 'Trump fan'? It's fairly apparent to me that here on Laxfan if you are not a Trump enemy, many will loudly claim you a Trump fan. It stands to reason! Sentence first, trial later!

Is any nuance allowed on these boards?

[jhu72]

A second diplomatic staffer overheard Trump and Sondland's call that "didn't take place". Let the spin begin.

[old salt]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigos) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigos & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

Sure, back channels are old as the hills. They helped resolve the Cuban missile crisis. What Rudy was doing doesn’t qualify as a back channel, however. He was not doing anything to further U.S. diplomatic interests. Rather, he was seeking to further Trump’s personal and political interests. His efforts, in fact, undermined U.S. policy, which was to root out corruption in the Ukraine. Rudy was trying to further corruption. As soon as Taylor recognized that, he stopped supporting what Rudy and his gang of misfits were doing.

You're overstating my position. Amb Taylor was OK with the "irregular channel" so long as it moved the process toward his desired outcome, with no strings attached. He lost his tolerance for the "irregular channel" when he came to view it as an obstruction.

Actually, the 3 Amigos were helping his cause. They were trying to find a way to get the aid approved & a WH meeting set, while placating Trump.
Rudy, Mulvaney & Trump himself were the obstacles.
The WB blew things up before the 3 Amigos could succeed as fixers, get the aid & WH mtg approved, & Zelensky to announce an investigation, to include Biden & Burisma.
The WB was protecting Biden. He (& his associates) could not tolerate an investigation of Biden/Burisma.

[MDlaxfan76]

Peter Brown wrote
Dan Rather's reporting (omg), or Walter Cronkite's for that matter, has proven so often wrong time and time again post-action, yet the prevailing liberal angle (even after being proven wrong!) is always that they are the ones who are correct and you're the dolt...

Since it was so often, and time and time again, I'm wondering if you can show me a few of the many times Cronkite's reports were proven wrong. I actually think he was mighty fussy about truth and accuracy when reporting, and I think he'd be the first to step up and correct any inaccuracies in his reports if he were aware of them.
Are you even old enough to have seen Cronkite delivering us the news every night?
If you haven't watched any of Rather's, The Big Interview with Dan Rather, I highly
recommend you do, he does a great job with them.

Among many other matters and emblematic of how liberal orthodoxy inserts itself into 'trusted' news sources in the US (even after they almost always prove unreliable because of their partisanship), Cronkite was an active supporter of the USSR in its very worst days. Hard to look past that fact...

https://www.aim.org/aim-column/the-terr ... -cronkite/

Rather is an unhinged mental midget with no equal; even today, on MSNBC (of course), he perma-smirks like an insane clown while discussing the only topic he seems comfortable with, bashing Republicans (and by that I mean ALL Republicans). His publication of phony W Bush documents must go down as one of the most egregiously fraudulent media conveyances of all time. I won't even bother to discuss the 'Kenneth Frequency' insanity.

wow, "one world" true believer. My gosh, he favored international laws!!! The horror.
Fascinating source.
Nah, you're not in the right wing fog. Nope not you!

Again, unresponsive PB.
You were asked for some examples when Cronkite had been incorrect in his reporting.

hmmm, "The Soviet threat is a myth".

You agree obviously.

That's your example?
From this source, quoting a supposed Russian interview???

No, I think there was a very real "soviet threat"...if Cronkite said that, I'd like to understand what he meant, the context etc.
If he's saying that the Soviets were no more of a threat to the US than the US was to the USSR, in terms of whether we'd push the button as a preemptive stoke, that appears to have been borne out through release of classified materials, if I recall correctly. Both countries wanted to avoid that, yet both thought the other was capable of a preemptive strike.

But perhaps he meant something different...again IF he said it.

[old salt]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

Taylor called out the "Irregular channel" by name. Those 4 + Mick Mulvaney, the WH COS/OMB.

I'm not saying it's normal. Amb Taylor acknowledged that back channels are not unprecedented & can sometime be helpful.
He seemed to welcome the support of the 3 Amigoes & the Senators who visited Ukraine, until he learned about the hold & the request for investigations.

You mean Ukraine’s aid wasn’t held up because the two teams couldn’t decide who was going to get credit for getting that government aid? I thought it was clear from yesterday’s testimony the the money was held up due to an inter-departmental turf war.....

The "who gets credit" red herring came from afan. I never raised it.
"Interagency turf battle" is my characterization of what this dispute is.
4 of the 5 members of the irregular channel were also govt officials.

And Hillary was just careless with Benghazi... just a characterization... no biggie...

And Hillary wasn't prosecuted or impeached for Benghazi.
Trump should use her "what difference does it make ?" defense.

Old Salt, as the argument goes, policy issues and disagreements are not or shouldn't be impeachable, soliciting foreign government interference for personal or political gain is. It's the gist of the Constitution you apparently at one time swore to uphold. Reread the darn thing and see if you don't agree one of its' main intentions if not its' main intention is to proscribe autocrats (like at the time King George, and now with the Dumpster) from gaining or consolidating power which is precisely who Trump is and what he was trying to do with his Ukraine shenanigans. Giuliani, Sondland and Mulvaney should all be indicted for signing up for this cockamamey back channell scheme to subvert the Constitution.

As I've said before. Impeachment is a Constitutional process. If enough of our fellow citizens share your interpretation & Trump is removed from office, I will salute smartly & carry on.