Trump's Russian Collusion

[old salt]

To help appreciate the urgency of this second batch of lethal military aid to Ukraine, here's what they got in the first batch, in addition to 150 Javelins.
https://www.military.com/kitup/2017/12/ ... raine.html
https://uawire.org/us-gives-ukraine-cou ... ery-radars
https://www.janes.com/article/87863/ukr ... ield-tests

That's why Amb Taylor couldn't tell Schiff that the delay lead to any additional Ukrainian casualties.

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... p-delayed/

The U.S. has committed more than $1.5 billion in security assistance to Ukraine since 2014, when Russian-backed separatists began driving tanks through eastern Ukraine. The latest equipment was largely more of the same aid the U.S. previously supplied, aimed at helping Ukraine monitor and secure its borders, deploy its forces more safely and effectively, and make progress toward NATO interoperability.

The Defense Department’s tranche was set to include sniper rifles, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, counter-artillery radars, electronic warfare detection and secure communications, night vision equipment, and military medical supplies and treatment. The department previously included counter-sniper equipment, Humvees and tactical drones as well.

The State Department funding included $115 million for a broad array of purposes, to buy American-produced weapons through the Foreign Military Financing program, but also to provide advisers and training to boost Ukraine’s NATO interoperability: English language labs, medical equipment and improvised bomb simulators. The funds could also pay for spare parts, sustainment and training for previously purchased U.S. gear.

What was the hold up?

Inter-governmental turf battle.

That explains it. Knew I could count on you. Can you post a copy of those inter-Government memos? I am sure they were all CYA and memorializing their actions.

Review Amb Taylor's testimony from today. He gives a play-by-play, tick-tock. Now, he's the official scorer.

Amb Taylor testified that he was part of the "regular" channel & Amb Volker, Amb Sondland & Rudy G were the "irregular" channel.

Taylor indicated that he was fine with the dual channels, so long as they were working toward the same "overall direction & purpose."
That being -- an Oval Office meeting & release of military aid, without delay.
Taylor only became concerned about the dual channels when their means about how to achieve th.ose goals began to diverge.
At that point, it became a turf battle, Taylor became alarmed & began expressing his concern to his State Dept superiors.

The memos should clear it all up. That’s how it’s done at most large organizations when trig battles occur. Post a link when you have a minute.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?466134-1/ ... eorge-kent

Were the memos introduced as evidence? Don’t want to scroll though 5 hours. At what minute mark should I look for the memos?

To review Amb Taylor's opening statement go to 00:48:55 on the video or scroll down on the transcript & click on Show Full Text.

I didn't see any exhibits of inter-departmental memos arguing about which department was going to give Ukraine aid. Where were the memos that discussed the delays because the two departments were battling over who would fund aid to Ukraine?

I have no idea what memos you're referencing. Taylor sent a classified cable to Pompeo expressing his concern.
The turf battle was between the regular & irregular channels.
As I indicated -- my post was based on Amb Taylor's testimony.

[a fan]

I have no idea what memos you're referencing. Taylor sent a classified cable to Pompeo expressing his concern.
The turf battle was between the regular & irregular channels.

Obviously TLD is making fun of your spin that this was a "turf battle" between the people Trump appointed to handle Ukraine---you know, actual Federal employees----and Rudy freaking Giuliani who literally has no standing to do ANYTHING on behalf of the United States.

You're trying to sell us that Giuliani and Taylor were both falling all over themselves to give the Ukrainians their military aid. And that Taylor was mad that Giuliani would give the Ukrainian aid first.

This, obviously, is a ridiculous explanation of what happened, and why Taylor was freaking out.

Hint: you're making no mention of the Giuliani's request to announce an investigation into Biden

[old salt]

I have no idea what memos you're referencing. Taylor sent a classified cable to Pompeo expressing his concern.
The turf battle was between the regular & irregular channels.

Obviously TLD is making fun of your spin that this was a "turf battle" between the people Trump appointed to handle Ukraine---you know, actual Federal employees----and Rudy freaking Giuliani who literally has no standing to do ANYTHING on behalf of the United States.

You're trying to sell us that Giuliani and Taylor were both falling all over themselves to give the Ukrainians their military aid. And that Taylor was mad that Giuliani would give the Ukrainian aid first.

This, obviously, is a ridiculous explanation of what happened, and why Taylor was freaking out.

Hint: you're making no mention of the Giuliani's request to announce an investigation into Biden

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.
Taylor was happy to have them as allies. They came back from Zelensky's inaugural supportive of the Oval Office mtg & releasing the aid. Except for Rudy, they were all enthusiastic in support of Zelensky. Taylor turned on them when Sondland couldn't convince Trump to go along without insisting on the investigation.
If Taylor thought Rudy would deliver the aid & the mtg, he'd have welcomed his help.
Taylor just wanted the aid & mtg, without the political strings. He didn't care who got the credit.

[a fan]

Did you watch Amb Taylor ?
Amb Volker, Amb Somdland, & Secy Perry (the 3 Amigoes) are also your exalted Federal employees.
They, along with Rudy G, comprised the Irregular Channel.

I must have missed that part.

So in the Taylor hearing today, you heard Taylor say that he, Sondland, Perry, and Giuliani were all pushing to get the Ukr President to announce that Hunter Biden was under investigation?

Because that's the "irregular" part of this entire mess.

Giuliani has. no. standing. He was there to go after Biden. It's RIDICULOUS to act like he was involved for any other reason. Stop acting like you think this was all normal....it's just not working.

[seacoaster]

Democrat Logic, defined clearly, buy a democrat: https://twitter.com/RepMattGaetz/status ... 23362?s=20 #ClownShow #WhackaMole

This is just sad. Citing Matt G for anything is just silly. Jordan's "point"? Beside the point and irrelevant.

[Kismet]

gg - we must have been watching a different channel - no points were scored - I would call it a loss or min a tie. Not sure what you saw.

Sondland talks directly to Trump on 7/26 (day after the infamous 7/25 call) out in the open in front of witnesses who will now be testifying. And then Sondland says in front of witnesses: "President Trump cares more about the investigations of Biden, which Giuliani was pressing for.”

That may not be points on the board -- yet. But that is an alley oop pass that can be dunked when Gordo comes back to testify next week.

Also note that Sondland cel call with Trump occurred in a Kiev restaurant on unsecured phones so not only those with Sondland were listening in but so were the Russians and any number of other intelligence people from both friendly and unfriendly countries. Curious as to how some here who routinely defend Trump feel about this very ill-advised practice of routinely talking on unsecured cel phone? It seems NUTS to me.

[seacoaster]

gg - we must have been watching a different channel - no points were scored - I would call it a loss or min a tie. Not sure what you saw.

Sondland talks directly to Trump on 7/26 (day after the infamous 7/25 call) out in the open in front of witnesses who will now be testifying. And then Sondland says in front of witnesses: "President Trump cares more about the investigations of Biden, which Giuliani was pressing for.”

That may not be points on the board -- yet. But that is an alley oop pass that can be dunked when Gordo comes back to testify next week.

Also note that Sondland cel call from Trump occurred in a Kiev restaurant on unsecured phones so not only those with Sondland were listening in but so were the Russians and any number of other intelligence people from both friendly and unfriendly countries. Curious as to how some here who routinely defend Trump feel about this very ill-advised practice of routinely talking on unsecured cel phone? It seems NUTS to me.

Here's an overview of the hearing and testimony that LandM apparently missed while he was getting a snack from the kitchen:

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... ton-070837

[Trinity]

“I never thought we’d see the day when Republicans would make career civil servants & war heroes the bad guys in defense of a life-long liberal, draft-dodging conman, or that only Democrats could be relied upon to defend our national security & the rule of law.”

John Ziegler, Conservative

“This is simple. Keep it simple. The White House released security assistance to Ukraine only after Congress started asking questions. Why? Considering that Bolton, Giuliani, Mulvaney, and others may have pertinent first-hand testimony, why won’t President Trump let them testify?” Rep J Amash

[youthathletics]

Far too many are treating this like it is some legal/moral testimony to the credibility of partisan politics. I think we all should take a break, hop off our high horses, and share a toast of a spirit we each enjoy.

Cheers!

[Trinity]

Those weren’t partisans yesterday. Cheers!

[LandM]

Sea - I have a man cave office in each location - cheese balls, chocolates, fiddle faddle and NA beer in fridge. I do not need someone to tell me how to think. I can deduce that on my own.

Trinity - so what - many a good friends are Academy graduates who cares and most are combat veterans - ok - I am married to a career state employee - management confidential - so what - she would b$tch about stuff and when asked why not change the problem - she would say that is the way it has always been done. Your tax dollars protecting the home turf.

CU77 - although I appreciate the list of 44 Presidents - doubtful anyone of their hands were clean - might want to do some research and NOT just provide a list.

What I heard is that the first two witnesses never had contact with DT. If I was to believe the he said, she said out here DT is a slimeball because a nephew, cousin, kid or family member was scre$ed by him. Why then would these people do business with him? I have never done business with him so I have no opinion but if I followed the he said, she said he would be just another arse contractor.

Afan - not the FBI or DOJ - dealt with those clowns once - you put allot of faith in what I consider to be the Apple Dumpling gang.

Tried to post a youtube video of Rodney D going back to college with his son. He is in a class with a prof who is trying to teach class about starting a business - Rodney tries to explain politician hand-outs; unions; skimming the neighbors etc. Whether you all like it or not that was what was elected.

[LandM]

Forgot - unprotected call on cell - go for it and I agree but also go for the unprotected server that had 30,000 emails drained, bleached and phones and equipment smashed - treat EVERY government employee in the manner you treat the lowest paid government employee - might earn some respect.

[MDlaxfan76]

Forgot - unprotected call on cell - go for it and I agree but also go for the unprotected server that had 30,000 emails drained, bleached and phones and equipment smashed - treat EVERY government employee in the manner you treat the lowest paid government employee - might earn some respect.

The hypocrisy is rich from you LandM.

But politics ain't bean bag, so some of it is expected in the right wing media fog you clearly live in, just as it exists in the left wing fog.

What I don't understand is why posters don't remember that not one of us here (LP at the time) defended HRC's server, etc. The most 'lib' of posters thought that was wrong. Their only push back was that it was driven by her 'paranoia' about being scrutinized and thus, desire to make it harder for her enemies to do so. That may or may not be the best 'fit' explanation, but none of the most 'lib' posters much less the rest of us defended HRC's posture as appropriate security procedures.

If you weren't on LP, ok, but that's the way it was discussed.

Given how 'outraged' Trump was about this, campaigning hard on it, tweeting constantly about it, the lack of ANY security measures by Trump is truly appalling, beyond simply amazingly hypocritical. His disregard for information security is well documented.

For these corrupt, inept useful idiots, apparently the best way for "security" is to have the very most sensitive meetings with no witnesses at all, and for those that have witnesses, and which go less than 'perfect', scramble to put records of such in a 'vault' away from prying eyes.

[ABV 8.3%]

Appropriations; Does the President have legal authority to withhold ALL funds/aid that have been approved by Congress? Even domestic aid-funds?

Pretty bad system if ONE person can halt the distribution of legally voting on funds. Anyone wanna change it?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Appropriations; Does the President have legal authority to withhold ALL funds/aid that have been approved by Congress? Even domestic aid-funds?

Pretty bad system if ONE person can halt the distribution of legally voting on funds. Anyone wanna change it?

I saw your boy is entering the race! I thought about you immediately!

[Peter Brown]

But politics ain't bean bag, so some of it is expected in the right wing media fog you clearly live in, just as it exists in the left wing fog.

Why is that when someone has a different opinion from the prevailing liberal ethos, that person is always accused of being 'in the tank for Fox' or 'lives in a right-wing fog''? Most of our media's reporting, Dan Rather's reporting (omg), or Walter Cronkite's for that matter, has proven so often wrong time and time again post-action, yet the prevailing liberal angle (even after being proven wrong!) is always that they are the ones who are correct and you're the dolt... Most people see this hypocrisy, but some here clearly do not.

As ever, when one screams the loudest about any one thing, it is so often more true that the person screaming is the one guiltiest of what they clamor about...in this case, my hunch is the Left lives in a left wing fog and is embarrassed to admit to being incapable of independent thought.

[Peter Brown]

“I never thought we’d see the day when Republicans would make career civil servants & war heroes the bad guys in defense of a life-long liberal, draft-dodging conman, or that only Democrats could be relied upon to defend our national security & the rule of law.”

John Ziegler, Conservative

“This is simple. Keep it simple. The White House released security assistance to Ukraine only after Congress started asking questions. Why? Considering that Bolton, Giuliani, Mulvaney, and others may have pertinent first-hand testimony, why won’t President Trump let them testify?” Rep J Amash

Ziggy!

(btw, Ziggy is as conservative as Joe Walsh, meaning he's really nothing more than an opportunist; he'd as easily call himself a liberal if that's where the cash lay)

[Brooklyn]

tRUMP's Dream Team

[Trinity]

“The Republican use of blatantly false conspiracy narratives about Ukraine, plus their attacks on our core institutions, will divide our country further, and will help make Russian (and other) disinformation campaigns more successful in future. Happening before our eyes.”

Anne Applebaum

[seacoaster]

“The Republican use of blatantly false conspiracy narratives about Ukraine, plus their attacks on our core institutions, will divide our country further, and will help make Russian (and other) disinformation campaigns more successful in future. Happening before our eyes.”

Anne Applebaum

Exactly what Fiona Hill said too. But what would she know.