Trump's Russian Collusion

[RedFromMI]

The more that comes out about the WB, his tactics, lawyer & dealings with Schiff & staff, the less pure his motives & tactics appear & the more obvious it beomes that this is a well orchestrated palace coup, abusing the impeachment process to damage Trump going into the election.
Just read the WB lawyer's tweets to see what this really is.

How can the WB take out the President if, as you claim to think, Trump did nothing wrong?

This is twice now that FoxNation is claiming a coup.

The first was when the FBI plotted to investigate Russia and Trump and (drumroll) clear Trump of any wrongdoing.

Now the claim is that the WB reported a phone call that, according to FoxNation, had Trump (drumroll) doing nothing wrong. If that's true? How the F is this a conspiracy? Who cares what the WB said if it's merely a report of legal and ethical activity?

Wow. Those are some epic conspiracies. What's next? The Deep State "conspiring" to give Trump a hug? Oooooh. Devious!


FoxNation can't even get their conspiracy stories to make sense.

The WB basically noted that Trump was using foreign policy for personal gain. But the WB was really more like the person who smells smoke and sees flames and pulls the fire alarm (H/T to the congressman who just used that metaphor...). The fact is that multiple direct witnesses to both the call in questions and multiple other meetings/events back up what the WB indicated prove that something really was going on. The WB was just the messenger who brought information to light for the first time outside of the administration.

Trump had no interest in lowering the corruption in Ukraine. He specifically was encouraging _more_ corruption, because he expected a publicly announced investigation into a false conspiracy theory. One that might both help exonerate Russia over its already proven involvement in putting its thumbs on the scales in the 2016 election, and one that would also help raise questions about one of his more feared rivals for the next election. This is extortion/solicitation of a bribe. Criminal.

To say this is a palace coup is just absolutely a desperate move to try and head off any Rs who might vote to remove Trump. That is why there is so much flailing in trying to defend Trump - he seems to be pretty guilty by all the testimony so far. So rather than come up with actual evidence - attack the process. But of course with Trump himself in charge of the defense it is generally quite scattershot.

What is likely to save Trump in the Senate is the fact that the Rs standing for re-election are basically so scared of the TrumpNation that they don't dare go against the OD. Unless the Ds can get more of the public (and some of the "hard" Rs) to see he is more of a problem than a solution...

[old salt]

The more that comes out about the WB, his tactics, lawyer & dealings with Schiff & staff, the less pure his motives & tactics appear & the more obvious it beomes that this is a well orchestrated palace coup, abusing the impeachment process to damage Trump going into the election.
Just read the WB lawyer's tweets to see what this really is.

How can the WB take out the President if, as you claim to think, Trump did nothing wrong?
Stupid ? - yes. Illegal ? - no. Impeachabe -- not likely, based on what's been revealed so far.

This is twice now that FoxNation is claiming a coup.

The first was when the FBI plotted to investigate Russia and Trump and (drumroll) clear Trump of any wrongdoing.
Yeah. 3 years of Russiagte was great for Trump.

Now the claim is that the WB reported a phone call that, according to FoxNation, had Trump (drumroll) doing nothing wrong. If that's true? How the F is this a conspiracy? Who cares what the WB said if it's merely a report of legal and ethical activity?
First it was 3 years yelling "Russia, collusion". Now it will be a year of yelling "bribery, extortion, abuse of power".
The wheels go round & round.

Wow. Those are some epic conspiracies. What's next? The Deep State "conspiring" to give Trump a hug? Oooooh. Devious!

FoxNation can't even get their conspiracy stories to make sense.

The WB basically noted that Trump was using foreign policy for personal gain. But the WB was really more like the person who smells smoke and sees flames and pulls the fire alarm (H/T to the congressman who just used that metaphor...). The fact is that multiple direct witnesses to both the call in questions and multiple other meetings/events back up what the WB indicated prove that something really was going on. The WB was just the messenger who brought information to light for the first time outside of the administration.

Trump had no interest in lowering the corruption in Ukraine. He specifically was encouraging _more_ corruption, because he expected a publicly announced investigation into a false conspiracy theory. One that might both help exonerate Russia over its already proven involvement in putting its thumbs on the scales in the 2016 election, and one that would also help raise questions about one of his more feared rivals for the next election. This is extortion/solicitation of a bribe. Criminal.

To say this is a palace coup is just absolutely a desperate move to try and head off any Rs who might vote to remove Trump. That is why there is so much flailing in trying to defend Trump - he seems to be pretty guilty by all the testimony so far. So rather than come up with actual evidence - attack the process. But of course with Trump himself in charge of the defense it is generally quite scattershot.

What is likely to save Trump in the Senate is the fact that the Rs standing for re-election are basically so scared of the TrumpNation that they don't dare go against the OD. Unless the Ds can get more of the public (and some of the "hard" Rs) to see he is more of a problem than a solution...

That all conveniently ignores what the DNC & Chalupa did in 2016, & any details about a possible Biden family QPQ.
...nothing to see here, folks.

[ggait]

It's not unreasonable to ask for information about what came out of Ukraine during the '16 campaign & for an accounting of Biden family dealings with Ukraine.

Agree. It is not unreasonable for Trump to commit bribery:

"Whoever being a public official or person selected to be a public official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for being influenced in the performance of any official act."

18 U.S.C. Section 201

And of course also:

The President shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of...Bribery.

Article II, Section 4

[MDlaxfan76]

It wasn’t really Russia, says Salty.

Why aren’t we surprised?

[old salt]

It's not unreasonable to ask for information about what came out of Ukraine during the '16 campaign & for an accounting of Biden family dealings with Ukraine.

Agree. It is not unreasonable for Trump to commit bribery:

"Whoever being a public official or person selected to be a public official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for being influenced in the performance of any official act."

18 U.S.C. Section 201

And of course also:

The President shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of...Bribery.

Article II, Section 4

So Biden & family are immune from scrutiny because he's a declared candidate.
Too bad that didn't apply to Candidate Trump & family.
Comey, Mccabe, Strzok, Page & Associates might still be on the govt payroll.

[old salt]

It wasn’t really Russia, says Salty.

Why aren’t we surprised?

Stop it. I didn't say that & you know it.
Russian meddling. Ukrainian meddling.
Independent variables.
You're only curious about one.

[jhu72]

Bolton not testifying is probable a good thing. The impeachment will go forward without him. Orange Duce will be impeached picking up a few republican votes and then fail in the Senate with a few republican votes -- but will fail to remove. Further motivating the resistance. Bolton's book will come out and he will continue prosecuting the case against Trump. Stone's trial will wrap up, probably before impeachment really gets started. If found guilty, a good chance, this will likely just be more fuel for the anti-Trump fire, showing Trump to have lied about the Wikileaks and perhaps even been involved in illegal activities. Then we have all the House v Orange Duce cases (he will lose) which will lead to the democrats having more investigations of his finances and embarrassing him further and likely showing more wrong doing (not to mention the State of New York).

Trumpsuckers are going to have to swallow a whole lot of sewage to support this grifter.

[a fan]

tupid ? - yes. Illegal ? - no. Impeachabe -- not likely, based on what's been revealed so far.

Giuliani doesn't have Trump's immunity. We'll find out if what he did was illegal soon enough.

Yeah. 3 years of Russiagte was great for Trump.

It was FANTASTIC for Trump. Look how far you've come to defend anything and everything he does. You're convinced this is everyone's fault but Trump...so you support his lunacy more. Just like millions of your fellow Americans.

Steak dinner says he gets reelected because of this. Russia noise hid every single sin of Trump's that would normally freak American conservatives out. Ukraine is doing the same thing. It's worked flawlessly for Trump.

First it was 3 years yelling "Russia, collusion". Now it will be a year of yelling "bribery, extortion, abuse of power".
The wheels go round & round.

Yep. Non stop lying will do that.

Remember Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi? Who's fault is that? You are selling to us that Obama and Hilary were doe eyed victims taken down by a mean ol' media. The whole thing would have blown over had they not lied. Or if Hillary didn't set up her stupid email system. You wanna blame the media for Hillary's decision to set up that server? It's their fault for taking her down? Please.

You used to understand this. Now here you are, acting like Trump is the most angelic President ever, and the rest of us are Satan worshipping demons trying to take our innocent President down.

[a fan]

Trump had no interest in lowering the corruption in Ukraine.

Waiting for Trump and old salt to update us on how that important investigation is going. I'm sure arrests of other US citizens not named Biden are arriving any day now....

[old salt]

afan :
You used to understand this. Now here you are, acting like Trump is the most angelic President ever, and the rest of us are Satan worshipping demons trying to take our innocent President down.

Still do. I told you what I thought of Trump, from the beginning. That hasn't changed.
That doesn't mean I have to accept the things his enemies are doing to subvert & sabotage his Presidency.
I still support many of Trump's policies & I'm still confident the Republic can survive his manifest defects & shortcomings.
The status quo needed to be disrupted.
I just want something good to come from his time in office.
That would be possible if the concept of a loyal opposition still existed.

[Trinity]

Ali Chalupa, Dem consultant who GOP wants to testify re: Ukraine & 2016, says she's eager to—but thinks it's a bluff. "I’m the last person R's want to testify publicly. My testimony would be especially damaging to Trump, Manafort and Vladimir Putin...The GOP knows this.”

Please call her, Nunes. She’s on a mission to testify. Anyone who wants to know what she’ll say need only listen to the podcast Gaslit Nation.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/1 ... ent-069817

[calourie]

afan :
You used to understand this. Now here you are, acting like Trump is the most angelic President ever, and the rest of us are Satan worshipping demons trying to take our innocent President down.

Still do. I told you what I thought of Trump, from the beginning. That hasn't changed.
That doesn't mean I have to accept the things his enemies are doing to subvert & sabotage his Presidency.
I still support many of Trump's policies & I'm still confident the Republic can survive his manifest defects & shortcomings.
The status quo needed to be disrupted.
I just want something good to come from his time in office.
That would be possible if the concept of a loyal opposition still existed.

Old Salt, I would somewhat respectfully submit that no good can come from the occupation of the position of POTUS by a man with as little regard for the truth and service to the nation that Trump has exhibited throughout much of his adult life and continues to exhibit repeatedly. That Trump is all about Trump is very difficult to refute, and how that approach to governing could begin to generate a "loyal opposition" is difficult to comprehend. Apparently you can explain it to yourself as you make a point of trying to explain it to others, but to not acknowledge that his behavior and actions have generated a goodly portion of the enemies that are now intent on removing him from office seems a trifle obtuse. I for one was willing to give him some time when he won the election to indicate a degree of fitness for the office he had succeeded in gaining, but quickly realized he was never going to develop even the slightest level of honesty and decency I would expect as a minimum requirement for occupying the office he currently holds, and trust me I have no illusions regarding my own sainthood. Anyway, on to the public hearings, and we shall see if any republicans or a significant percentage of undecideds can be convinced to leave the "dark side".

[seacoaster]

afan :
You used to understand this. Now here you are, acting like Trump is the most angelic President ever, and the rest of us are Satan worshipping demons trying to take our innocent President down.

Still do. I told you what I thought of Trump, from the beginning. That hasn't changed.
That doesn't mean I have to accept the things his enemies are doing to subvert & sabotage his Presidency.
I still support many of Trump's policies & I'm still confident the Republic can survive his manifest defects & shortcomings.
The status quo needed to be disrupted.
I just want something good to come from his time in office.
That would be possible if the concept of a loyal opposition still existed.

Old Salt, I would somewhat respectfully submit that no good can come from the occupation of the position of POTUS by a man with as little regard for the truth and service to the nation that Trump has exhibited throughout much of his adult life and continues to exhibit repeatedly. That Trump is all about Trump is very difficult to refute, and how that approach to governing could begin to generate a "loyal opposition" is difficult to comprehend. Apparently you can explain it to yourself as you make a point of trying to explain it to others, but to not acknowledge that his behavior and actions have generated a goodly portion of the enemies that are now intent on removing him from office seems a trifle obtuse. I for one was willing to give him some time when he won the election to indicate a degree of fitness for the office he had succeeded in gaining, but quickly realized he was never going to develop even the slightest level of honesty and decency I would expect as a minimum requirement for occupying the office he currently holds, and trust me I have no illusions regarding my own sainthood. Anyway, on to the public hearings, and we shall see if any republicans or a significant percentage of undecideds can be convinced to leave the "dark side".

Nicely stated. Good post.

[old salt]

afan :
You used to understand this. Now here you are, acting like Trump is the most angelic President ever, and the rest of us are Satan worshipping demons trying to take our innocent President down.

Still do. I told you what I thought of Trump, from the beginning. That hasn't changed.
That doesn't mean I have to accept the things his enemies are doing to subvert & sabotage his Presidency.
I still support many of Trump's policies & I'm still confident the Republic can survive his manifest defects & shortcomings.
The status quo needed to be disrupted.
I just want something good to come from his time in office.
That would be possible if the concept of a loyal opposition still existed.

Old Salt, I would somewhat respectfully submit that no good can come from the occupation of the position of POTUS by a man with as little regard for the truth and service to the nation that Trump has exhibited throughout much of his adult life and continues to exhibit repeatedly. That Trump is all about Trump is very difficult to refute, and how that approach to governing could begin to generate a "loyal opposition" is difficult to comprehend. Apparently you can explain it to yourself as you make a point of trying to explain it to others, but to not acknowledge that his behavior and actions have generated a goodly portion of the enemies that are now intent on removing him from office seems a trifle obtuse. I for one was willing to give him some time when he won the election to indicate a degree of fitness for the office he had succeeded in gaining, but quickly realized he was never going to develop even the slightest level of honesty and decency I would expect as a minimum requirement for occupying the office he currently holds, and trust me I have no illusions regarding my own sainthood. Anyway, on to the public hearings, and we shall see if any republicans or a significant percentage of undecideds can be convinced to leave the "dark side".

Sorry. I'm not willing to write off the USA just because Trump is the President & concede that nothing positive can transpire during his time in office.
Obviously, I focus on our military. I've never felt better about the state of our military.
Some of that is due to Trump, some despite Trump.
I remain confident that most Americans, whether they support Trump or not, are better than him.
He too will pass from the scene.
I agree with those who have opined that the tactics used by those attempting to remove him, may result in him staying longer.

[RedFromMI]

The WB basically noted that Trump was using foreign policy for personal gain. But the WB was really more like the person who smells smoke and sees flames and pulls the fire alarm (H/T to the congressman who just used that metaphor...). The fact is that multiple direct witnesses to both the call in questions and multiple other meetings/events back up what the WB indicated prove that something really was going on. The WB was just the messenger who brought information to light for the first time outside of the administration.

Trump had no interest in lowering the corruption in Ukraine. He specifically was encouraging _more_ corruption, because he expected a publicly announced investigation into a false conspiracy theory. One that might both help exonerate Russia over its already proven involvement in putting its thumbs on the scales in the 2016 election, and one that would also help raise questions about one of his more feared rivals for the next election. This is extortion/solicitation of a bribe. Criminal.

To say this is a palace coup is just absolutely a desperate move to try and head off any Rs who might vote to remove Trump. That is why there is so much flailing in trying to defend Trump - he seems to be pretty guilty by all the testimony so far. So rather than come up with actual evidence - attack the process. But of course with Trump himself in charge of the defense it is generally quite scattershot.

What is likely to save Trump in the Senate is the fact that the Rs standing for re-election are basically so scared of the TrumpNation that they don't dare go against the OD. Unless the Ds can get more of the public (and some of the "hard" Rs) to see he is more of a problem than a solution...

That all conveniently ignores what the DNC & Chalupa did in 2016, & any details about a possible Biden family QPQ.
...nothing to see here, folks.

Actually it is _immaterial_ to Trump's guilt or not what the DNC did. What Trump did was a crime. Repeat - a crime. And one can make a good case that the particular crime was bribery (solicitation to a bribe more specifically). That is a particular crime listed as impeachable.

But that is not the only crime Trump seems to have committed. Lying to Mueller is another. Obstruction of justice is detailed in the Mueller probe.

[calourie]

The admission of guilt in Trump's own transcript has brought on the impeachment process. No deep state required. Undeniable impeachable conduct, which we SHOULD NOT "just get over". It's a huge part of the reason for the existence of the U.S. Constitution, moreso than the military.

[RedFromMI]

The admission of guilt in Trump's own transcript has brought on the impeachment process. No deep state required. Undeniable impeachable conduct, which we SHOULD NOT "just get over". It's a huge part of the reason for the existence of the U.S. Constitution, moreso than the military.

And that is not a verbatim transcript anyway - the released document is a call summary. But the fact it is not word-for-word a transcript does not seem to provide any wiggle room for the apparent crime. Plenty of fact witnesses have backed up the original WB concern.

If a more verbatim transcript actually existed, it has not been released. That means it either does not exist, or does not do anything to support the untenable presidential position that the call was "perfect."

And there is plenty of evidence piling up that the effort to force an announcement of investigation was much more extensive than one phone call.

[ggait]

So Biden & family are immune from scrutiny because he's a declared candidate.

No. But you can't commit a crime (bribery) to get something investigated. That's Banana Republican. If you want Biden investigated, do it the legit way.

Have DOJ do it using proper channels. And don't insist on a deliverable of a public announcement up front before any investigation begins. Or if you are looking for political dirt, just get the RNC to use RNC funds to hire Chris Steele to go check it out for you. That's what Hill did -- legal oppo research. If Steele finds something, turn it over to DOJ. That's fine too.

The way Trump went about this (Giuliani, Lev, all in secret, no legit US govt officials know what's going on, questionable legality, go before the microphones, etc. etc.) completely destroys the idea that this was a valid legal exercise.

[seacoaster]

"Sorry. I'm not willing to write off the USA just because Trump is the President..."

Forgive me, but this is an astonishingly obtuse thing to say on the plain and unambiguous facts in front of us. The USA is functionally the structure and functions of the Constitution. You're willingness to just let Trump's conduct pass is, in practice, writing off the USA. Do you not get the asymmetry of what you do and say? Oath much? At all, anymore?

[jhu72]

News from the Stone trial.

Gates claims Trump was in the loop on the Wikileaks even though Orange Duce claimed he was not.