Trump's Russian Collusion

[LandM]

MD,
I can speak French as good as the next person, fluent in many venues - my wife hates it and I absolutely hate the lectures when I do it. I was told - not sure what thread - to be civil and no mention of gloves (boxing) or having a bit of fun on a backyard brawl..........that to many is like cussing. When i hear that language I am always like ok tough guy what do you have - flipping someone off because you disagree with them is childish - kinda of like when you are pile driven so to be the man you flip the person off - here you just lost and were humiliated now you are flipping that person off - too funny.

[Trinity]

Tough guy Trump is blocking more than a dozen witnesses from testifying.
His White House, State Dept, DOD, OMB, and Energy Dept are defying subpoenas for thousands of documents. What guts!

OMB put a separate, earlier hold on Javelin missiles to Ukraine because Mulvaney was concerned that “Russia would react negatively,” according to State Dept. official Catherine Croft. Top to bottom, tough guys at the White House and the warfighters at OMB. All the other principals favored sending the weapons.

[jhu72]

aFan,
Fly-over again - never once said do not Impeach him, that is a right the people should have. What I have said is there is NOT the votes in the Senate to convict - if the top three Dems would have taken the time to discuss and compromise with the Senate could have been a possible different outcome. Instead the ram rod job by Schiff in combination with everyone and who are mostly career diplomats looks like piling on. Where is that WB who started all of this - it would be interesting to hear from him/her. What is next a call from the Mexican President? Every politician and their mother has been messing around in Ukraine - I say we have tea and go after all of them and we could use the tax savings to do your favorite thing - reduce the deficit.

There is now and was then NO CHANCE that anything any democrat or any one else could do that would convince republican Senators to convict his majesty. They are Trumpsuckers plain and simple.

[MDlaxfan76]

MD,
I can speak French as good as the next person, fluent in many venues - my wife hates it and I absolutely hate the lectures when I do it. I was told - not sure what thread - to be civil and no mention of gloves (boxing) or having a bit of fun on a backyard brawl..........that to many is like cussing. When i hear that language I am always like ok tough guy what do you have - flipping someone off because you disagree with them is childish - kinda of like when you are pile driven so to be the man you flip the person off - here you just lost and were humiliated now you are flipping that person off - too funny.

Huh, "speak French good" ??

Again, I have no idea why you are referring to me.

Are you saying that all the threats about fighting other posters were just figures of speech, like 'cussing'?
I'd assume so. Certainly hope so.

That said, I don't see threats of violence as equivalent to giving someone the bird but neither are preferred ways to communicate, IMO.

However, do you see any difference between A) being uncivil with each other on here and B) expressing disgust about a politician?

I see a huge difference.

[ABV 8.3%]

Tough guy Trump is blocking more than a dozen witnesses from testifying.
His White House, State Dept, DOD, OMB, and Energy Dept are defying subpoenas for thousands of documents. What guts!

OMB put a separate, earlier hold on Javelin missiles to Ukraine because Mulvaney was concerned that “Russia would react negatively,” according to State Dept. official Catherine Croft. Top to bottom, tough guys at the White House and the warfighters at OMB. All the other principals favored sending the weapons.

Be consistent please. When the traffic cone (you guys think anyone can beat trump) that YOU like ignore subpeona's.

Arrest them, please. If not, just be quiet about it.

[MDlaxfan76]

Tough guy Trump is blocking more than a dozen witnesses from testifying.
His White House, State Dept, DOD, OMB, and Energy Dept are defying subpoenas for thousands of documents. What guts!

OMB put a separate, earlier hold on Javelin missiles to Ukraine because Mulvaney was concerned that “Russia would react negatively,” according to State Dept. official Catherine Croft. Top to bottom, tough guys at the White House and the warfighters at OMB. All the other principals favored sending the weapons.

Be consistent please. When the traffic cone (you guys think anyone can beat trump) that YOU like ignore subpeona's.

Arrest them, please. If not, just be quiet about it.

"arrest them"??

I'm fine with holding them in contempt of Congress, levying fines, etc. for 'ignoring subpoenas' in Congressional oversight matters.
I'm also for the public coming down on them like a ton of bricks for the lack of transparency.

But there's a big difference between "ignoring subpoenas", claiming specific executive privilege matters on issues not involving alleged criminal activity and those definitely addressing such. There is no "executive privilege" covering crimes.

Much less is there executive privilege in impeachment proceedings, alleging impeachable " bribery, high crimes and misdemeanors".

Much less a blanket order to ignore any and all Congressional subpoenas, not in any way specific to a particular national interest. That's where we are with the Trump Administration.

Come on, Fatty, you understand these differences.
Stop with the Trumpist nonsense.

Be critical if the next guy or gal does any of this, but don't give this a pass.

[runrussellrun]

I always thought that a bench warrant was issued if one ignored a subpeona.

Guess that's just for the serfs, not our lords and ladies in Congress. But fine, if you want fine them, fine them. Is there a process in place for this? Did Eric Holder get fined? He certainly didn't lose his job.

Like wife #1, useless when it comes to enforcing rules/laws, our Congress is.

[Peter Brown]

There's nothing left to argue about on this topic. Everyone has their heels dug in; each successive post is a mind-numbing recitation of someone's core political philosophy with no ability to persuade anyone to change their opinion.

What will happen: Trump will be impeached by the House (biggest non-surprise ever) then get exonerated by the Senate (second biggest non-surprise ever). There will be no new revelations or facts.

In 2020, a wounded but angry Trump will square off a wounded Democratic nominee (each 'possible' new contender - Bloomberg, Deval Patrick - simply weakens the eventual Dem nominee).

Trump is likely to win re-election; Vegas has him crushing Warren.
https://www.predictit.org/markets/detai ... l-election

My prediction for 2021 fanlax politics forum:

wash rinse repeat.

Good news though....Lacrosse starts in 2 months!!!! Go Hounds!

[LandM]

MD,
In some street parlance, French means you can string a bunch of 4 letter words into a coherent (somewhat) message that basically tells the other person what the bird would do. Kinda like when you take a clean hit and start the 4 letter words - it is an old saying where I come from. Same with putting the gloves on - means boxing. I am ok with any French word - it is the flipping off of the President I take issue. I was taught it is not about the person occupying the Office BUT the Office. I was not a fan of Carter or Nixon but I respected the Office - protest, Impeach, call a hundred committees but do not flip off the Office - I hope that makes sense - PM if you have further questions.

[seacoaster]

PB may be right about his predictions, and we will rue the day we elected this charlatan. But this:

"There will be no new revelations or facts."

I don't think so. If you keep your eyes and ears open, keep reading what people are saying under oath, I think we are bound to learn about an Administration genuinely like no other before it, the ultimate in crony-political activities.

I know you won't believe it, and I suppose on balance I can't blame you, but I don't feel that support of impeachment is a purely partisan exercise, and I'd imagine there are a few posters here who feel the same way. Adherence to the public trust, and using the levers and powers of government for purposes which only advance the public trust, shouldn't be a partisan sentiment. If you told me that a Democrat had done the things we are seeing in the light of day that Trump and Mulvaney and Sondland and America's Mayor were up to, I am pretty certain I'd tell you to impeach him or her.

[seacoaster]

Interesting article on the thread topic:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ice-229911

[ggait]

Trump is likely to win re-election; Vegas has him crushing Warren.
https://www.predictit.org/markets/detai ... l-election

PB -- you need some help with the math. Maybe you should join the Wang Gang!

That's not a Warren/Trump head to head -- it is just odds on each person's chance to win the WH. Add up each Dem candidate's odds and you'll see that this market is predicting a Dem win.

https://www.predictit.org/markets/detai ... l-election

[old salt]

afan :
Nope. My version of isolationism pertains to our treaty-bound allies. Well, except Turkey, who If I were in charge, would be laughed out of NATO for literally defeating the entire purpose of NATO.

So that means: do we have a treaty, ratified by our Congress with a given nation? If the answer is no----no troops, no military aid, no arms. Now picture all those bases/troops/money coming home. That's my version of isolationism. If some country is sooooo freaking important....it should be easy to get Congress to sign up for a treaty with them, no?

OK. By your policy, even though we'd be laughing at Turkey, we'd support them as a NATO ally over our non-ally fighting partner SDF ?
obtw -- there's no mechanism to expel a NATO member.

Does your policy allow us to go after terrorists who attack US citizens (at home or abroad) & partner with non-treaty "allies" in the process.
We have a post-911 AUMF (with no end state or end date) which authorizes combat operations.

Our large scale presence in the ME dates back to Desert Shield/Storm in '91. We stayed for the next 12 years, policing no fly zones, bombing to protect Iraqi civilians & to enforce UN resolutions, & going back into Iraq for Operation Provide Comfort to protect the Iraqi Kurds,
All that was done with the approval of Congress, including assembling a 150 nation coalition to expel Iraqi forces from Kuwait.

Do you consider Desert Storm lawful ? Do we have any ongoing obligation to the nations which joined that coalition as our "allies" for that operation, who remain impacted still ? Many remained our "allies" in our invasion of Iraq in '03 & subsequent campaign against ISIS which is still ongoing.

[old salt]

OMB put a separate, earlier hold on Javelin missiles to Ukraine because Mulvaney was concerned that “Russia would react negatively,” according to State Dept. official Catherine Croft. Top to bottom, tough guys at the White House and the warfighters at OMB. All the other principals favored sending the weapons.

Did the military aid authorized by Congress specify more Javelins ?
Have the Ukrainians expended any of the 150 Javelins they received in 2018 ?
I'd ask LTC Vindmann, but he doesn't know when Ukraine received their first batch of Javelins.

[RedFromMI]

So Gates, testifying in the Roger Stone trial has made it clear that Trump knew that Stone was a conduit to Wikileaks. Conflicts with Trump's written answers to Mueller - making it seem that the OD has lied in his responses.

Isn't that what Bill Clinton's impeachment was essentially about - lying in a court proceeding? I do suppose lying to the FBI/Justice is not quite the same level...

[dislaxxic]

According to Huckleberry Graham, the Senate's resident weasel, Clinton's impeachment was ALL ABOUT "cleansing the Office".

That little dweeb needs to be run out of office tarred and feathered on a rail...

..

[a fan]

afan :
Nope. My version of isolationism pertains to our treaty-bound allies. Well, except Turkey, who If I were in charge, would be laughed out of NATO for literally defeating the entire purpose of NATO.

So that means: do we have a treaty, ratified by our Congress with a given nation? If the answer is no----no troops, no military aid, no arms. Now picture all those bases/troops/money coming home. That's my version of isolationism. If some country is sooooo freaking important....it should be easy to get Congress to sign up for a treaty with them, no?

OK. By your policy, even though we'd be laughing at Turkey, we'd support them as a NATO ally over our non-ally fighting partner SDF ?
obtw -- there's no mechanism to expel a NATO member.

Does your policy allow us to go after terrorists who attack US citizens (at home or abroad) & partner with non-treaty "allies" in the process.
We have a post-911 AUMF (with no end state or end date) which authorizes combat operations.

Our large scale presence in the ME dates back to Desert Shield/Storm in '91. We stayed for the next 12 years, policing no fly zones, bombing to protect Iraqi civilians & to enforce UN resolutions, & going back into Iraq for Operation Provide Comfort to protect the Iraqi Kurds,
All that was done with the approval of Congress, including assembling a 150 nation coalition to expel Iraqi forces from Kuwait.

Do you consider Desert Storm lawful ? Do we have any ongoing obligation to the nations which joined that coalition as our "allies" for that operation, who remain impacted still ? Many remained our "allies" in our invasion of Iraq in '03 & subsequent campaign against ISIS which is still ongoing.

I moved this conversation to National Security thread.

[old salt]

Because I don't believe that Trump intended to not release the aid.

Great. Why did he hold it in the first place? This'll be a swell story from you....why did Trump place a hold on that aid?

You're seriously so stubborn that you're going to pretend you're so stupid, that gee whiz, you can't figure out what Trump was doing with the Ukraine and Biden.

No one is buying your act here. You know exactly what Trump did. You know it's wrong. But you're so mad at the Dems, the media, and anyone except Trump that you're going to pretend like you don't get why Trump is being impeached.

There's millions of guys just like you, all across our country.

You are BEGGING for Karma to exact a toll for this silliness.

The WB, his sleazy tweeting coup plotting lawyer, & Schiff.

There it is. This is a battle over who you hate more.

And the little D's lose that battle with you every time.

You're making my pont. The MSM only cover's Ukraine when they can somehow turn it into a knock on Trump.[/color]

Knock on Trump? Oh, heaven's no. Everything Trump and his personal lawyer did in the Ukraine makes perfect sense. Any day now, the now famous and super serious investigation into US crime in the Ukraine will bear fruit, right?

Personally? I think we should destroy the REAL villains here: namely, anyone who tell us what, precisely, the leader of the free word is doing.

Any suggestions as to how we can do this? Can we switch from America to the DDR for the rest of the year? Borrow their laws and methods? The leaks that give Americans facts about what their leaders are doing will go away, that's for doggone sure.

Hit it out of the park!

+1000

Another Oscar for the hyperbolic drama queen. The more that comes out, the less there, there.

I know you worship unelected federal bureaucrats & think they can do no wrong, but the President sets our foreign policy.

This is an overhyped telephone game about a policy dispute. Yes.Trump was using the release of the aid for leverage.
There's no evidence that the aid would not be released by 30 Sept.

Foreign policy is influenced by domestic political considerations -- what a shock.
It's not unreasonable to ask for information about what came out of Ukraine during the '16 campaign & for an accounting of Biden family dealings with Ukraine. Trump has also been using the imbalance in military aid to shame our EU/NATO allies into doing more. There was a NATO summit sched for late Sept.

Of course the officials in the State Dept, DoD & NSC who work with their Ukrainian counterparts develop as affinity for the Ukrainian cause, as do the Congress members influenced by their lobbyists. Trump has been begrudging of releasing ALL foreign aid & expects something in return, whoever the recipient.

The more that comes out about the WB, his tactics, lawyer & dealings with Schiff & staff, the less pure his motives & tactics appear & the more obvious it beomes that this is a well orchestrated palace coup, abusing the impeachment process to damage Trump going into the election.
Just read the WB lawyer's tweets to see what this really is.

[a fan]

The more that comes out about the WB, his tactics, lawyer & dealings with Schiff & staff, the less pure his motives & tactics appear & the more obvious it beomes that this is a well orchestrated palace coup, abusing the impeachment process to damage Trump going into the election.
Just read the WB lawyer's tweets to see what this really is.

How can the WB take out the President if, as you claim to think, Trump did nothing wrong?

This is twice now that FoxNation is claiming a coup.

The first was when the FBI plotted to investigate Russia and Trump and (drumroll) clear Trump of any wrongdoing.

Now the claim is that the WB reported a phone call that, according to FoxNation, had Trump (drumroll) doing nothing wrong. If that's true? How the F is this a conspiracy? Who cares what the WB said if it's merely a report of legal and ethical activity?

Wow. Those are some epic conspiracies. What's next? The Deep State "conspiring" to give Trump a hug? Oooooh. Devious!


FoxNation can't even get their conspiracy stories to make sense.

[jhu72]

Because I don't believe that Trump intended to not release the aid.

Great. Why did he hold it in the first place? This'll be a swell story from you....why did Trump place a hold on that aid?

You're seriously so stubborn that you're going to pretend you're so stupid, that gee whiz, you can't figure out what Trump was doing with the Ukraine and Biden.

No one is buying your act here. You know exactly what Trump did. You know it's wrong. But you're so mad at the Dems, the media, and anyone except Trump that you're going to pretend like you don't get why Trump is being impeached.

There's millions of guys just like you, all across our country.

You are BEGGING for Karma to exact a toll for this silliness.

The WB, his sleazy tweeting coup plotting lawyer, & Schiff.

There it is. This is a battle over who you hate more.

And the little D's lose that battle with you every time.

You're making my pont. The MSM only cover's Ukraine when they can somehow turn it into a knock on Trump.[/color]

Knock on Trump? Oh, heaven's no. Everything Trump and his personal lawyer did in the Ukraine makes perfect sense. Any day now, the now famous and super serious investigation into US crime in the Ukraine will bear fruit, right?

Personally? I think we should destroy the REAL villains here: namely, anyone who tell us what, precisely, the leader of the free word is doing.

Any suggestions as to how we can do this? Can we switch from America to the DDR for the rest of the year? Borrow their laws and methods? The leaks that give Americans facts about what their leaders are doing will go away, that's for doggone sure.

Hit it out of the park!

+1000

Another Oscar for the hyperbolic drama queen. The more that comes out, the less there, there.

I know you worship unelected federal bureaucrats & think they can do no wrong, but the President sets our foreign policy.

This is an overhyped telephone game about a policy dispute. Yes.Trump was using the release of the aid for leverage.
There's no evidence that the aid would not be released by 30 Sept.

Foreign policy is influenced by domestic political considerations -- what a shock.
It's not unreasonable to ask for information about what came out of Ukraine during the '16 campaign & for an accounting of Biden family dealings with Ukraine. Trump has also been using the imbalance in military aid to shame our EU/NATO allies into doing more. There was a NATO summit sched for late Sept.

Of course the officials in the State Dept, DoD & NSC who work with their Ukrainian counterparts develop as affinity for the Ukrainian cause, as do the Congress members influenced by their lobbyists. Trump has been begrudging of releasing ALL foreign aid & expects something in return, whoever the recipient.

The more that comes out about the WB, his tactics, lawyer & dealings with Schiff & staff, the less pure his motives & tactics appear & the more obvious it beomes that this is a well orchestrated palace coup, abusing the impeachment process to damage Trump going into the election.
Just read the WB lawyer's tweets to see what this really is.

Trump lover fewmets.