Trump's Russian Collusion

[old salt]

So when do we get to find out who the whistleblower/disgruntled is? Is it really a former Biden campaign/office staffer?

Kra -- FYI the WB was outed weeks ago. Google will tell you his name in 0.000023 seconds. He's a CIA NSC guy who specializes in Russia and Ukraine. So (surprise!!) he thinks there's something fishy about Trump and Putin -- which is what 99.86% of the Russia/Ukraine specialists at NSC, CIA, DOS think too.

Since he was at CIA during the Obama years, his job would have been to work with Brennan (CIA director) and Biden (Obama point man on Ukraine). I've seen zero evidence that he ever worked in a political job for Biden.

He looks to be pretty much the same thing as Bill Taylor, LTC Vindman and all the other deep staters that have been coming in to testify. Since so many of those folks have testified (another one today -- deep stater Jennifer Williams assigned to Pence) and they've all said the same thing, we should be indifferent to whether the WB testifies or not.

No question. Ukraine has many friends & boosters within the NSC & IC. What do the voters know (or care) about Ukraine ?
How dare an elected President pursue a foreign policy that bucks that trend & resists getting pulled into Ukraine's conflict with Russia.

That is the Rs argument. Except it leaves out the only part that matters....investigating Trump's political opponent.

Didn't you agree that was wrong?

Wrong ? -- yes. // Illegal ? -- not based on what's been presented so far. // Impeachable ? -- tbd.

All that aside, 15 mos before an election, why should the Biden family be exempt from scrutiny ?
The aid to Ukraine (as appropriated by Congress) was contingent upon Ukraine taking concrete action to reduce corruption.
Zelensky was just elected on an anti-corruption platform.
It's reasonable for the President to hold him to that.
If Trump felt that the State Dept bureaucrats were not pursuing his policy & had "gone native", it's not surprising that he would pursue an alternate channel.

Ukraine co-operated with the DNC in the 2016 election, resulting in Manafort being fired & subsequently prosecuted & convicted. Rightly so.
I want to know everything about the Biden's dealings with Ukraine in general, & Barisma specifically.
US voters are entitled to that information, early enough to matter. If there's no there, there -- it will benefit candidate Biden.

[a fan]

I don't trust Schiff in the least after his last go around with Rove approximately ten plus years ago. Nothing more than a shrill!!

No argument here. He's not helping the perception of what's going on with Trump.

[ggait]

Zelensky was just elected on an anti-corruption platform.
It's reasonable for the President to hold him to that.

Come on Salty. Everyone, including all the deep staters and also the three amigos, was anti-corruption. But under the influence of Trump and Rudy, it turned into a focus on only two possible investigations. Which just happened to be the ones helpful to Trump in the upcoming election. "Corruption" is a legit policy. But it is not legit when "corruption" becomes the pretext and cover word for govt funded oppo research.

I'm sure there were dozens of corrupt Uke companies that merited investigation. Yet Burisma is the ONLY company that was targeted. And a key piece was that Burisma had to be publicly announced. It really wasn't so much about the investigation -- it was about the announcement. That is very telling.

Sondland's testimony describes it well:

“You know, this whole thing was sort of a continuum, starting at the May 23rd meeting, ending up at the end of the line when the transcript of the call came out. And as I said to counsel, it started as talk to Rudy, then others talk to Rudy. Corruption was mentioned. Then, as time went on—and, again, I can’t nail down the dates—then let’s get the Ukrainians to give a statement about corruption. And then, no, corruption isn’t enough, we need to talk about the 2016 election and the Burisma investigations. And it was always described to me as ongoing investigations that had been stopped by the previous administration and they wanted them started up again. That’s how it was always described. And then finally at some point I made the Biden-Burisma connection, and then the transcript was released. So I can’t tell you on that continuum when, what dates, but that’s kind of what happened. It kept—it kept getting more insidious as [the] timeline went on.”

[seacoaster]

Bill Cohen weighs in on the party with which he used to, anyway, be affiliated:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... elessness/

"Cohen has no doubt that Trump has abused his power and committed impeachable acts. He starts with Trump’s public accusations and threats against lawmakers. “Certainly that’s an abuse of power. There’s nothing like the president basically inciting [attacks].” Trump does this, Cohen says, when he suggests a “civil war” would occur if he were ousted. “Now we have people walking around with AR-15s and AK-47s. What are we doing here?”

Cohen talks in terms Republicans rarely do these days. He sees the presidency as a fiduciary role, a position of trust. “We hold fiduciaries to a higher standard than we do anyone else,” he explains. “Power must be entrusted to someone, but no one can be trusted with power.” Hence, we have our checks and balances. For Cohen, Trump’s conduct unquestionably is impeachable. “It’s not a close call for me,” he says.

On Ukraine and Trump’s holdup of aid to extract election fodder, Cohen says, “I think it was perfectly corrupt.” He suggests that this is part of a pattern we have seen ever since Trump demanded that then-FBI director James B. Comey pledge personal loyalty. “We’re on the road to tyranny if people don’t step up,” Cohen says bluntly.

On Russia more generally, Cohen says, Russian President Vladimir Putin “wants to reconstruct the former Soviet Union under a Russian flag.” Everything from Trump supporting Brexit (weakening the European Union) to his raising doubts about NATO to his “undermining the CIA” by siding with Putin serves Putin’s interests. Cohen thinks the answer may lie “in those tax returns” Trump is hellbent on keeping secret.

Cohen, who still travels the world and speaks to business and government leaders, says, “We’re still number one in terms of power, but our credibility and trustworthiness is called into question” when other countries see that Trump was ready to endanger Ukraine. “There is less fear of the United States, but also less admiration,” he says glumly. And it’s that moral authority, not just military power, that allows the United States to influence events in the world, Cohen notes.

In his mind, the impeachment process has been handled correctly, keeping witnesses from syncing up their testimony. “They have to do what the special prosecutor [in Watergate] did,” he says, recalling the long period of private meetings and interviews before Watergate’s public hearings. “I think if you took a vote now in the Senate, all but one or two … virtually all would acquit,” he surmises. “But we are still a long way to go.” He thinks it is possible that upon hearing the witnesses the public’s attitude may shift, and when voters shift so will some Republicans.

As for Collins, he says: “She is very methodical. She’s not as liberal as people think. She’s a moderate Republican. I think what she will do is go through all the evidence and do what she thinks is right.” Maine is an odd state — half rural and conservative, half urban and liberal. He concedes, “It’s a no-win situation for her whatever she does.”

I couldn’t help but observe that there is no Republican, not a one, in the Senate who is as thoughtful, measured or informed about the world as Cohen. The Senate, he acknowledges, has lost a lot of power, in large part because it has given up power, as we’ve seen with Trump’s evasion of confirmation for top officials. However, it has also lost power, from my vantage point, because the quality of men and women in that body has gone downhill precipitously since Cohen was there. I’m not optimistic it can regain some former luster by behaving responsibly in the impeachment process."

Yeah, he must just be crazy. He probably "needs help." This is what the "benefit of the doubt" and "patience" with, and then support of, an incurious, feckless, narcissist will get you.

[old salt]

Zelensky was just elected on an anti-corruption platform.
It's reasonable for the President to hold him to that.

Come on Salty. Everyone, including all the deep staters and also the three amigos, was anti-corruption. But under the influence of Trump and Rudy, it turned into a focus on only two possible investigations. Which just happened to be the ones helpful to Trump in the upcoming election. "Corruption" is a legit policy. But it is not legit when "corruption" becomes the pretext and cover word for govt funded oppo research.

I'm sure there were dozens of corrupt Uke companies that merited investigation. Yet Burisma is the ONLY company that was targeted. And a key piece was that Burisma had to be publicly announced. It really wasn't so much about the investigation -- it was about the announcement. That is very telling.

Sondland's testimony describes it well:

“You know, this whole thing was sort of a continuum, starting at the May 23rd meeting, ending up at the end of the line when the transcript of the call came out. And as I said to counsel, it started as talk to Rudy, then others talk to Rudy. Corruption was mentioned. Then, as time went on—and, again, I can’t nail down the dates—then let’s get the Ukrainians to give a statement about corruption. And then, no, corruption isn’t enough, we need to talk about the 2016 election and the Burisma investigations. And it was always described to me as ongoing investigations that had been stopped by the previous administration and they wanted them started up again. That’s how it was always described. And then finally at some point I made the Biden-Burisma connection, and then the transcript was released. So I can’t tell you on that continuum when, what dates, but that’s kind of what happened. It kept—it kept getting more insidious as [the] timeline went on.”

What other corrupt Ukrainian companies hired family members of US govt officials ?
There's already an acknowledged link between the Biden's & Barisma.
The Prosecutor Biden demanded to be fired was investigating Barisma.
What did he find ? What did his successor(s) find ? Not unreasonable questions.
It's not oppo research if there's legit reason for investigation.

[foreverlax]

So when do we get to find out who the whistleblower/disgruntled is? Is it really a former Biden campaign/office staffer?

Kra -- FYI the WB was outed weeks ago. Google will tell you his name in 0.000023 seconds. He's a CIA NSC guy who specializes in Russia and Ukraine. So (surprise!!) he thinks there's something fishy about Trump and Putin -- which is what 99.86% of the Russia/Ukraine specialists at NSC, CIA, DOS think too.

Since he was at CIA during the Obama years, his job would have been to work with Brennan (CIA director) and Biden (Obama point man on Ukraine). I've seen zero evidence that he ever worked in a political job for Biden.

He looks to be pretty much the same thing as Bill Taylor, LTC Vindman and all the other deep staters that have been coming in to testify. Since so many of those folks have testified (another one today -- deep stater Jennifer Williams assigned to Pence) and they've all said the same thing, we should be indifferent to whether the WB testifies or not.

No question. Ukraine has many friends & boosters within the NSC & IC. What do the voters know (or care) about Ukraine ?
How dare an elected President pursue a foreign policy that bucks that trend & resists getting pulled into Ukraine's conflict with Russia.

That is the Rs argument. Except it leaves out the only part that matters....investigating Trump's political opponent.

Didn't you agree that was wrong?

Wrong ? -- yes. // Illegal ? -- not based on what's been presented so far. // Impeachable ? -- tbd.

All that aside, 15 mos before an election, why should the Biden family be exempt from scrutiny ?
The aid to Ukraine (as appropriated by Congress) was contingent upon Ukraine taking concrete action to reduce corruption.
Zelensky was just elected on an anti-corruption platform.
It's reasonable for the President to hold him to that.
If Trump felt that the State Dept bureaucrats were not pursuing his policy & had "gone native", it's not surprising that he would pursue an alternate channel.

Ukraine co-operated with the DNC in the 2016 election, resulting in Manafort being fired & subsequently prosecuted & convicted. Rightly so.
I want to know everything about the Biden's dealings with Ukraine in general, & Barisma specifically.
US voters are entitled to that information, early enough to matter. If there's no there, there -- it will benefit candidate Biden.

Agreed. Agreed. Impeachable, as the scholars say, is what the House decides.

Scrutiny of candidates, all for it. Trump asked a foreign power to investigate his opponent...that is something entirely different then what you are suggesting.

Agree that money we give should be used the way it's offered, under the parameters we pick. As it should be. Congress never authorized money ONLY IF Ukraine investigates Biden.

So in pursuit of his "theory" he decides to circumvent his own State Department and DOJ, by using his personal lawyer to ensure he gets an investigation of a political oppoenet, before the money is released. Got it. I keep looking for Trump's tweet on all the other corruption he wants exposed. Guess it will come after Infrastructure Week and Tax Cuts 2.0

You are wrapped around the axle that Hunter used his name to make money and yet you don't give a fig that Trump was negotiating and lying about trying to do a deal in Moscow...as the Russians were interfering in our election.

Nor do you seem to care a lick Trump's spawn and their "corrupt" activities....like taking $50k for giving a campaign speech at a public university, which came out of student fees.

Quite a gap in consistency in that view point.

[old salt]

So when do we get to find out who the whistleblower/disgruntled is? Is it really a former Biden campaign/office staffer?

Kra -- FYI the WB was outed weeks ago. Google will tell you his name in 0.000023 seconds. He's a CIA NSC guy who specializes in Russia and Ukraine. So (surprise!!) he thinks there's something fishy about Trump and Putin -- which is what 99.86% of the Russia/Ukraine specialists at NSC, CIA, DOS think too.

Since he was at CIA during the Obama years, his job would have been to work with Brennan (CIA director) and Biden (Obama point man on Ukraine). I've seen zero evidence that he ever worked in a political job for Biden.

He looks to be pretty much the same thing as Bill Taylor, LTC Vindman and all the other deep staters that have been coming in to testify. Since so many of those folks have testified (another one today -- deep stater Jennifer Williams assigned to Pence) and they've all said the same thing, we should be indifferent to whether the WB testifies or not.

No question. Ukraine has many friends & boosters within the NSC & IC. What do the voters know (or care) about Ukraine ?
How dare an elected President pursue a foreign policy that bucks that trend & resists getting pulled into Ukraine's conflict with Russia.

That is the Rs argument. Except it leaves out the only part that matters....investigating Trump's political opponent.

Didn't you agree that was wrong?

Wrong ? -- yes. // Illegal ? -- not based on what's been presented so far. // Impeachable ? -- tbd.

All that aside, 15 mos before an election, why should the Biden family be exempt from scrutiny ?
The aid to Ukraine (as appropriated by Congress) was contingent upon Ukraine taking concrete action to reduce corruption.
Zelensky was just elected on an anti-corruption platform.
It's reasonable for the President to hold him to that.
If Trump felt that the State Dept bureaucrats were not pursuing his policy & had "gone native", it's not surprising that he would pursue an alternate channel.

Ukraine co-operated with the DNC in the 2016 election, resulting in Manafort being fired & subsequently prosecuted & convicted. Rightly so.
I want to know everything about the Biden's dealings with Ukraine in general, & Barisma specifically.
US voters are entitled to that information, early enough to matter. If there's no there, there -- it will benefit candidate Biden.

Agreed. Agreed. Impeachable, as the scholars say, is what the House decides.

Scrutiny of candidates, all for it. Trump asked a foreign power to investigate his opponent...that is something entirely different then what you are suggesting.

Agree that money we give should be used the way it's offered, under the parameters we pick. As it should be. Congress never authorized money ONLY IF Ukraine investigates Biden.

So in pursuit of his "theory" he decides to circumvent his own State Department and DOJ, by using his personal lawyer to ensure he gets an investigation of a political oppoenet, before the money is released. Got it. I keep looking for Trump's tweet on all the other corruption he wants exposed. Guess it will come after Infrastructure Week and Tax Cuts 2.0

You are wrapped around the axle that Hunter used his name to make money and yet you don't give a fig that Trump was negotiating and lying about trying to do a deal in Moscow...as the Russians were interfering in our election.

Nor do you seem to care a lick Trump's spawn and their "corrupt" activities....like taking $50k for giving a campaign speech at a public university, which came out of student fees.

Quite a gap in consistency in that view point.

Trump & family dealings with Russia were investigated, exhaustively.
Why the fear of investigation of Biden & family dealings with Ukraine, China or any other potential conflicts of interest ?

[a fan]

Why the fear of investigation of Biden & family dealings with Ukraine, China or any other potential conflicts of interest ?

Because conflict of interest are ok now, remember?

[foreverlax]

So when do we get to find out who the whistleblower/disgruntled is? Is it really a former Biden campaign/office staffer?

Kra -- FYI the WB was outed weeks ago. Google will tell you his name in 0.000023 seconds. He's a CIA NSC guy who specializes in Russia and Ukraine. So (surprise!!) he thinks there's something fishy about Trump and Putin -- which is what 99.86% of the Russia/Ukraine specialists at NSC, CIA, DOS think too.

Since he was at CIA during the Obama years, his job would have been to work with Brennan (CIA director) and Biden (Obama point man on Ukraine). I've seen zero evidence that he ever worked in a political job for Biden.

He looks to be pretty much the same thing as Bill Taylor, LTC Vindman and all the other deep staters that have been coming in to testify. Since so many of those folks have testified (another one today -- deep stater Jennifer Williams assigned to Pence) and they've all said the same thing, we should be indifferent to whether the WB testifies or not.

No question. Ukraine has many friends & boosters within the NSC & IC. What do the voters know (or care) about Ukraine ?
How dare an elected President pursue a foreign policy that bucks that trend & resists getting pulled into Ukraine's conflict with Russia.

That is the Rs argument. Except it leaves out the only part that matters....investigating Trump's political opponent.

Didn't you agree that was wrong?

Wrong ? -- yes. // Illegal ? -- not based on what's been presented so far. // Impeachable ? -- tbd.

All that aside, 15 mos before an election, why should the Biden family be exempt from scrutiny ?
The aid to Ukraine (as appropriated by Congress) was contingent upon Ukraine taking concrete action to reduce corruption.
Zelensky was just elected on an anti-corruption platform.
It's reasonable for the President to hold him to that.
If Trump felt that the State Dept bureaucrats were not pursuing his policy & had "gone native", it's not surprising that he would pursue an alternate channel.

Ukraine co-operated with the DNC in the 2016 election, resulting in Manafort being fired & subsequently prosecuted & convicted. Rightly so.
I want to know everything about the Biden's dealings with Ukraine in general, & Barisma specifically.
US voters are entitled to that information, early enough to matter. If there's no there, there -- it will benefit candidate Biden.

Agreed. Agreed. Impeachable, as the scholars say, is what the House decides.

Scrutiny of candidates, all for it. Trump asked a foreign power to investigate his opponent...that is something entirely different then what you are suggesting.

Agree that money we give should be used the way it's offered, under the parameters we pick. As it should be. Congress never authorized money ONLY IF Ukraine investigates Biden.

So in pursuit of his "theory" he decides to circumvent his own State Department and DOJ, by using his personal lawyer to ensure he gets an investigation of a political oppoenet, before the money is released. Got it. I keep looking for Trump's tweet on all the other corruption he wants exposed. Guess it will come after Infrastructure Week and Tax Cuts 2.0

You are wrapped around the axle that Hunter used his name to make money and yet you don't give a fig that Trump was negotiating and lying about trying to do a deal in Moscow...as the Russians were interfering in our election.

Nor do you seem to care a lick Trump's spawn and their "corrupt" activities....like taking $50k for giving a campaign speech at a public university, which came out of student fees.

Quite a gap in consistency in that view point.

Trump & family dealings with Russia were investigated, exhaustively.
Why the fear of investigation of Biden & family dealings with Ukraine, China or any other potential conflicts of interest ?

I have said from day one, regardless of who it is, investigate away. I have been consistent on this since Slick Willy. Clinton corruption? Find it and nail them.

[old salt]

Why the fear of investigation of Biden & family dealings with Ukraine, China or any other potential conflicts of interest ?

Because conflict of interest are ok now, remember?

Investigation may well prove that the Biden family conflicts of interest were ok.
Won't know unless investigated.
Clear Uncle Joe. Som'b!tch !

[a fan]

You're being coy today.

FBI directing an investigation? Solid. No problems.

Trump or (snicker) Giuliani? Come on.

[ggait]

I have said from day one, regardless of who it is, investigate away. I have been consistent on this since Slick Willy. Clinton corruption? Find it and nail them.

And how you do this is to get the FBI and DOJ (somewhat objective, independent and professional organizations) to do the investigating.

What you don't do is squeeze an ally using public money in order to get them to work with Rudy and Lev.

And if you want oppo research, you use your own campaign dollars (not public resoources) to do that. Have the RNC hire Christopher Steele if you want. That's fine too.

[MDlaxfan76]

Painfully, there are few Bill Cohens.

And Salty sure ain't one.

[foreverlax]

I have said from day one, regardless of who it is, investigate away. I have been consistent on this since Slick Willy. Clinton corruption? Find it and nail them.

And how you do this is to get the FBI and DOJ (somewhat objective, independent and professional organizations) to do the investigating.

What you don't do is squeeze an ally using public money in order to get them to work with Rudy and Lev.

And if you want oppo research, you use your own campaign dollars (not public resoources) to do that. Have the RNC hire Christopher Steele if you want. That's fine too.

Agreed. Should be black and white...felt like it used to be.

[Trinity]

George Kent brought a bazooka and used it. Explodes the cover story on the gangster Trump.

[old salt]

You're being coy today.

FBI directing an investigation? Solid. No problems.

Trump or (snicker) Giuliani? Come on.

Trump's just asking the Ukrainian govt to do the same thing now that they did in 2016.
Give Rudy the same sort of stuff they gave Chalupa.

[seacoaster]

George Kent brought a bazooka and used it. Explodes the cover story on the gangster Trump.

Just getting to this:

https://apps.npr.org/documents/document ... Transcript

[a fan]

You're being coy today.

FBI directing an investigation? Solid. No problems.

Trump or (snicker) Giuliani? Come on.

Trump's just asking the Ukrainian govt to do the same thing now that they did in 2016.
Give Rudy the same sort of stuff they gave Chalupa.

Nope. Not even close.

Did Biden or Obama call the Ukrainian President and ask him to investigate Trump? Nope.

Or send (and again, I can't believe Republicans are acting like this is no big deal) Trump's personal lawyer to a foreign country, acting like he has some State sanction authority....and looking to gin up dirt on Biden.

You know all this, and are just having fun with me here. Which is fine.

[Trinity]

Did Obama orchestrate a campaign of lies against the American Ambassador? C’mon Salty, these dirtbags went way too far. Now they’re gonna smear the Colonel after outing Deep Whistle. Bolton pussed out today. Huge surprise. Not. Officials with more to lose than Bolton are willing to perform their duty and testify while Bolton waits for an invitation from a court.
Phil Mudd tonight on Rudy and Donny—these are a bunch of cowards.

[foreverlax]

Did Obama orchestrate a campaign of lies against the American Ambassador? C’mon Salty, these dirtbags went way too far. Now they’re gonna smear the Colonel after outing Deep Whistle. Bolton pussed out today. Huge surprise. Not. Officials with more to lose than Bolton are willing to perform their duty and testify while Bolton waits for an invitation from a court.
Phil Mudd tonight on Rudy and Donny—these are a bunch of cowards.

crickets....