Trump's Russian Collusion

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
ggait
Posts: 4167
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:23 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by ggait »

...& precedent means nothing in your profession ? You see no long term implications or opportunity for abuse ?
What precedents are being violated?

As I have gassed on about previously, the reason for the House votes in the Nixon and Clinton cases was because (under House rules then in effect) such House vote was necessary to authorize subpoenas issuing from the committees. Under long since changed House rules, the committees now in action have standing power to issue subpoenas. So there is literally no reason to have a House vote now.

Also, in the Nixon and Clinton cases the House activities were preceded by extensive special counsel, independent counsel and grand jury investigations. ALL of those investigations were conducted in secret. In the Ukraine affiar, the investigation is being done directly by the House. So logically such House investigation should be in secret. Side note -- the Nixon and Clinton investigations (including grand jury materials) were delivered in full and unredacted to Congress. With Mueller, not so much.

Under the Constitution, impeachment articles consideration, impeachment trial and all votes and proceedings would be public proceedings (and would be nationally televised). Per the Constitution, CJ Roberts would be in charge of the trial and Senate rules (controlled by the GOP currently) would govern. This will be as public as anything could possibly be. And as fair to Trump as could possibly be. Although I thought the Clinton impeachment had a weak basis (as confirmed by the bi-partisan Senate votes which cleared Slick Willie), I don't recall the actual house and Senate proceedings as being unfair. Mostly I recall the gold stripes on Rhenquist's robes more than anything else.

So what precedential issues do you see, Salty?

To me, the Trump proceedings so far seem just fine. And as well or more grounded than the Clinton proceedings.
Last edited by ggait on Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32933
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

tech37 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:30 pm
seacoaster wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:09 pm
tech37 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:02 pm
foreverlax wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:00 pm
seacoaster wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:43 pm It is a remarkably clear and devastating statement of a President and his flunkies using American aid, appropriated by the Congress, to euchre domestic political favors from a vulnerable young democracy at war with Russia and dying in the thousands.

Sorry for the TDS.
Yep and it ain't the first. It won't matter a lick to those to any DTS (deranged/deplorable Trump supporter) ;)
And all this time I've simply been rooting for our country. Silly me...
Baloney. Wrap yourself in a flag, sure.

If you were rooting for the country, you’d be aghast at what Taylor — and everyone else — is saying. Instead, you roll out your faux moderate sham-clothes and suggest there is too much “subjectivity” in these various narratives to indict the president. Don’t pretend to loving the country more than others, you poseur.
I'm aghast at people who will go to any length to overturn a duly elected president. That's really bad for our democracy/republic and the country of course. As for the subjectivity, don't blame me... that rests at the feet of the countless lawyers who for decades have bent the laws to their advantage. Think about it counselor.
You sound like “not as old as old salt”....Clinton was duly elected.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
a fan
Posts: 18552
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:17 pm Evidence from Ukraine was sufficient to help convict Manafort.
Great. Investigate away.

You really care about American political corruption in foreign countries?
wahoomurf
Posts: 1844
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:51 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by wahoomurf »

Is Trump "Goodfella" Joe Pesci REDUX? Sounded kinda weird until I read this article from the conservative blog THE BULWARK/Intelligencer.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/ ... e-him.html
a fan
Posts: 18552
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by a fan »

youthathletics wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:10 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:00 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:52 pm I honestly am torn. To me, we are witness to the cruelties of politics and certainly there is an argument for the legal portion of these events.
Ok.

Maybe this will help. I think I can safely speak for the rest of the board, and see if I can help cut through the chaff....

If Trump had called the Ukr. President and said "I want you to investigate any corruption in your country that may have involved Americans"?

No one here would complain. Not only is that legal.... it's Trump's job. Further, as a secondary matter, none of us would have any issues with Trump withholding funds if Trump thought corruption was too severe, and those funds would be pointless.

But that's not what Trump did.


Trump waited until Biden was running for POTUS, and then he asked the Ukr. President to investigate Biden by name.


See the difference? One, he's doing his job. The other, he's using his power as President to go after a political rival.

And Trump TOLD YOU he did this. That fact is not up for debate.


Does that help?
Already beat this horse to death a few weeks back. There is no 'quo', so therefore there can be no quid pro quo.
Who said anything about quid pro quo?

Wait: are you operating under the understanding that it's ok for our President ask a foreign leader to investigate a political rival so long as the President doesn't offer the foreign leader something in return?

Do I have that right?
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 18046
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by old salt »

ggait wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:31 pm
...& precedent means nothing in your profession ? You see no long term implications or opportunity for abuse ?
What precedents are being violated?

As I have gassed on about previously, the reason for the House votes in the Nixon and Clinton cases was because (under House rules then in effect) such House vote was necessary to authorize subpoenas issuing from the committees. Under long since changed House rules, the committees now in action have standing power to issue subpoenas. So there is literally no reason to have a House vote now.

Also, in the Nixon and Clinton cases the House activities were preceded by extensive special counsel, independent counsel and grand jury investigations. ALL of those investigations were conducted in secret. In the Ukraine affiar, the investigation is being done directly by the House. So logically such House investigation should be in secret. Side note -- the Nixon and Clinton investigations (including grand jury materials) were delivered in full and unredacted to Congress. With Mueller, not so much.

Under the Constitution, impeachment articles consideration, impeachment trial and all votes and proceedings would be public proceedings (and would be nationally televised). Per the Constitution, CJ Roberts would be in charge of the trial and Senate rules (controlled by the GOP currently) would govern. This will be as public as anything could possibly be. And as fair to Trump as could possibly be. Although I thought the Clinton impeachment had a weak basis (as confirmed by the bi-partisan Senate votes which cleared Slick Willie), I don't recall the actual house and Senate proceedings as being unfair. Mostly I recall the gold stripes on Rhenquist's robes more than anything else.

So what precedential issues do you see, Salty?

To me, the Trump proceedings so far seem just fine. And as well or more grounded than the Clinton proceedings.
What Schiff is doing is unprecedented & is an abuse of the HPSCI's mission of oversight of the IC.

Andy McCarthy explains why it's nothing like a Grand Jury inquiry.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/andrew- ... he-secrecy
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 18046
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by old salt »

old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:17 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:48 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:42 pm Why is everyone so opposed to an inquiry into Burisma & US influence peddling ?
The govt of Ukraine gladly gave the DNC & Ms Chalupa the goods on Manafort.
Why the selective curiousty about Ukrainian lobbying & influence peddling ?
1. Trump "forgot" to do this until Joe Biden declared his candidacy. Got a reason for that? And is the Ukraine the only country where
there might be US influence peddling? Great. So show me those investigations first. Then I'll buy the idea that this is important work.

2. If the Ukraine is really this corrupt, you can't trust one single piece of "evidence" we turn up, good or bad. It's pointless to do this.

3. Putin is there. So anything that is reported will have his disinformation campaign all over it. That's bad.

4. That's not what Trump asked for. Trump didn't ask for an investigation into US corruption. He asked for an investigation into Joe Biden. As you and I discussed before, these are not the same things.
Evidence from Ukraine was sufficient to help convict Manafort.

During Crossfire Hurricane, was it OK for the FBI (& Fusion GPS) to look into Candidate Trump's family business connections with Russians ?

There's a new President & Prosecutor General in Ukraine. Bill Taylor says they're good guys now.

Glenn Simpson, Christopher Steele, Nellie Ohr & Sidney Blumenthal had lots of contact with officials inside the DoJ & State Dept.
...& Trump asked Z-sky to look into a lot more than just Biden (or the Crowd Strike server).
Read the transcript -- Biden was just an obtw.
ggait
Posts: 4167
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:23 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by ggait »

As a lawyer, I have to say that is about the weakest legal sauce I’ve ever read.

But it is better than WH counsel Cippollone’s hysterical letter. That was the worst.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 15228
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by youthathletics »

old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:43 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:17 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:48 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:42 pm Why is everyone so opposed to an inquiry into Burisma & US influence peddling ?
The govt of Ukraine gladly gave the DNC & Ms Chalupa the goods on Manafort.
Why the selective curiousty about Ukrainian lobbying & influence peddling ?
1. Trump "forgot" to do this until Joe Biden declared his candidacy. Got a reason for that? And is the Ukraine the only country where
there might be US influence peddling? Great. So show me those investigations first. Then I'll buy the idea that this is important work.

2. If the Ukraine is really this corrupt, you can't trust one single piece of "evidence" we turn up, good or bad. It's pointless to do this.

3. Putin is there. So anything that is reported will have his disinformation campaign all over it. That's bad.

4. That's not what Trump asked for. Trump didn't ask for an investigation into US corruption. He asked for an investigation into Joe Biden. As you and I discussed before, these are not the same things.
Evidence from Ukraine was sufficient to help convict Manafort.

During Crossfire Hurricane, was it OK for the FBI (& Fusion GPS) to look into Candidate Trump's family business connections with Russians ?

There's a new President & Prosecutor General in Ukraine. Bill Taylor says they're good guys now.

Glenn Simpson, Christopher Steele, Nellie Ohr & Sidney Blumenthal had lots of contact with officials inside the DoJ & State Dept.
...& Trump asked Z-sky to look into a lot more than just Biden (or the Crowd Strike server).
Read the transcript -- Biden was just an obtw.
Maybe afan will listen to you. Even in the 15 page testimony today they reference pre-election.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
a fan
Posts: 18552
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:35 pm What Schiff is doing is unprecedented & is an abuse of the HPSCI's mission of oversight of the IC.
You have used the word unprecedented twice now.

This is factually wrong. No grey area.


If you, McCarthy, and FoxNation honestly want to actually follow precedent? You're complaining to the wrong guy.

Pelosi isn't the phone call. You need to call AG Barr....he needs to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Trump. That's what AG Elliot Richardson did under Nixon.

Is that what you're calling for? You're mad at Barr for not calling an SP?




https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/c ... er-realize
User avatar
old salt
Posts: 18046
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:44 am

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:58 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:35 pm What Schiff is doing is unprecedented & is an abuse of the HPSCI's mission of oversight of the IC.
You have used the word unprecedented twice now.

This is factually wrong. No grey area.


If you, McCarthy, and FoxNation honestly want to actually follow precedent? You're complaining to the wrong guy.

Pelosi isn't the phone call. You need to call AG Barr....he needs to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Trump. That's what AG Elliot Richardson did under Nixon.

Is that what you're calling for? You're mad at Barr for not calling an SP?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/c ... er-realize
The HPSCI has never been used for this sort of thing.
Impeachment hearings have been done by the Judiciary Committee.
User avatar
dislaxxic
Posts: 4605
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 11:00 am
Location: Moving to Montana Soon...

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by dislaxxic »

Yeah, I was about to award SC the Post of the Day for working in the word euchre.

Clapping emoji, twice.

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
jhu72
Posts: 14153
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by jhu72 »

old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:02 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:58 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:35 pm What Schiff is doing is unprecedented & is an abuse of the HPSCI's mission of oversight of the IC.
You have used the word unprecedented twice now.

This is factually wrong. No grey area.


If you, McCarthy, and FoxNation honestly want to actually follow precedent? You're complaining to the wrong guy.

Pelosi isn't the phone call. You need to call AG Barr....he needs to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Trump. That's what AG Elliot Richardson did under Nixon.

Is that what you're calling for? You're mad at Barr for not calling an SP?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/c ... er-realize
The HPSCI has never been used for this sort of thing.
Impeachment hearings have been done by the Judiciary Committee.
… and so will this one when there is actually The Impeachment Hearing, according Nancy Pelosi.
Image STAND AGAINST FASCISM
a fan
Posts: 18552
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by a fan »

youthathletics wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:49 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:43 pm
...& Trump asked Z-sky to look into a lot more than just Biden (or the Crowd Strike server).
Read the transcript -- Biden was just an obtw.
Maybe afan will listen to you. Even in the 15 page testimony today they reference pre-election.
I did read it. Did you?

If this is some benign request, why did he name Biden? Biden was already covered by his general request to look into corruption, no?
a fan
Posts: 18552
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:02 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:58 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:35 pm What Schiff is doing is unprecedented & is an abuse of the HPSCI's mission of oversight of the IC.
You have used the word unprecedented twice now.

This is factually wrong. No grey area.


If you, McCarthy, and FoxNation honestly want to actually follow precedent? You're complaining to the wrong guy.

Pelosi isn't the phone call. You need to call AG Barr....he needs to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Trump. That's what AG Elliot Richardson did under Nixon.

Is that what you're calling for? You're mad at Barr for not calling an SP?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/c ... er-realize
The HPSCI has never been used for this sort of thing.
Impeachment hearings have been done by the Judiciary Committee.
Again, I don't know why you keep doing this, but It's right in the link.

Here you go:

May 18, 1973

Attorney General Elliot Richardson appoints Archibald Cox as special prosecutor to lead the investigation into Nixon’s reelection campaign and Watergate. Cox was a respected attorney and law professor, and had served as the United States solicitor general under Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson.



And then AN ENTIRE YEAR LATER:

May 9, 1974

The House Judiciary Committee starts impeachment proceedings against Nixon.



So the precedent is: AG appoints and SP first, and then after the SP does his work, impeachment proceedings begin.


So I ask again: if you're genuinely upset precedent isn't being followed, why aren't you directing your ire to AG Barr?
ggait
Posts: 4167
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:23 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by ggait »

Is that what you're calling for? You're mad at Barr for not calling an SP?
Yup. If you really want to follow the precedent, that's what you'd do. With Barr, of course, recusing himself from the SC process. And that investigation would be done privately, fyi.

And things will be getting handed off to House Judiciary pretty soon. Guaranteed.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
User avatar
youthathletics
Posts: 15228
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by youthathletics »

a fan wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:10 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:49 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:43 pm
...& Trump asked Z-sky to look into a lot more than just Biden (or the Crowd Strike server).
Read the transcript -- Biden was just an obtw.
Maybe afan will listen to you. Even in the 15 page testimony today they reference pre-election.
I did read it. Did you?

If this is some benign request, why did he name Biden? Biden was already covered by his general request to look into corruption, no?
Yes I read it, even quoted and posted about it earlier this evening.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
User avatar
dislaxxic
Posts: 4605
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 11:00 am
Location: Moving to Montana Soon...

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by dislaxxic »

old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:35 pm What Schiff is doing is unprecedented & is an abuse of the HPSCI's mission of oversight of the IC.

Andy McCarthy explains why it's nothing like a Grand Jury inquiry.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/andrew- ... he-secrecy
Solid horse hockey. McCarthy thinks the American People “deserve” a public hearing. BS. Nowhere Man. Don’t know what he’s missin’

Sorta like how the American People deserved a vote on Merrill Garland?

Moronic.

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
jhu72
Posts: 14153
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Gather evidence steadily, go to trial in the Senate.

Post by jhu72 »

dislaxxic wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:19 pm
old salt wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:35 pm What Schiff is doing is unprecedented & is an abuse of the HPSCI's mission of oversight of the IC.

Andy McCarthy explains why it's nothing like a Grand Jury inquiry.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/andrew- ... he-secrecy
Solid horse hockey. McCarthy thinks the American People “deserve” a public hearing. BS. Nowhere Man. Don’t know what he’s missin’

Sorta like how the American People deserved a vote on Merrill Garland?

Moronic.

..
These people can't defend Orange Duce on this one so all they have is a baseless process argument.
Image STAND AGAINST FASCISM
Post Reply

Return to “POLITICS”