Progressive Ideology

[DMac]

While I think Andy and his brother exaggerate a whole lot about the racism they experienced growing up, I sure don't see anything wrong with what he's saying here. Think this is another mountain being built from a mole hill.

“They used an expression that southern Italians were called, I believe they were saying southern Italians, Sicilians — I’m half Sicilian — were called, quote-unquote and pardon my language, but I’m just quoting the Times: ‘n----r wops.’ N-word wops, as a derogatory comment,” Cuomo told host Alan Chartock."
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/10/n ... rview.html

There was a heavy population of Italians where I grew up and they used wop, daygo, guinea constantly.
Was the norm and no one took offense. Of course that was before we built mountains from mole hills as
much as we do today and people weren't nearly as thin skinned as they are today. Seems to me as if people had a much better sense of humor and didn't make such a big deal out of everything. JMHO.

His use of the N-word was highly inappropriate. If you don’t understand that, then you’re still living in the 1950s (or modern day Alabama).

DocBarrister

I get it that this is your MO, Doc, but you really have to stop going to these kind of extremes in these kind of discussions. Just a little reminder that I was the one who called you out as the biggest racist, hands down, of anyone on this forum during Her Holiness' run for President. Your distaste for the white man and his ways could not have been made more clear. This is just another shot by you at a white guy that completely misses the mark.
Couple of questions:
Do we all agree that blacks own the N word, made it their own, and are the only ones who are "allowed" to use it? While I don't like it and it makes uncomfortable, I do get it. Just as it's okay for one sailor to call another a squid, an Italian to call another Italian a guinea, Irish folks calling one another Micks, etc, etc, etc.
If we agree that blacks can use the N word, why can't a n-word wop use it too, why can't they own their word too?
(Again, I think Andy and bro highly exaggerate the racism they experienced growing up and if someone called them a n-word wop they likely responded with, "Go phuk yourself you potato pickin' Mick", but you won't get that part from him or bro.)
No, it was not inappropriate, he was quoting what was printed in the NYT, but one word from the quote has been isolated and things are being blown way out of proportion here. Just the facts, ma'am.
I will agree with MDlax, Ffg, and the ever gentlemanly and thoughtful seacoaster's opinions of what I said here and disregard yours.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Yeah, Italians weren't considered "White" and those terms were pretty dang offensive for a long time and they started fights and worse. They were heavily discriminated against heavily. And the Irish, and Polish, others. Eventually they assimilated and united against newer immigrants.

Enough people lost their sh*t that they murdered gay people, black people, the Irish, trans people, Italians and others regularly for the past few hundred years. True Blue Americans, Bowery Boys, Dead Rabbits, "Nativists" and more.

We gloss over so much nowadays, it wasn't some rosy past we lived in fifty years ago where no one got offended.

Geezuz H, you guys are just absolutely brutal and putting that mountain out of a mole hill thing on full display. I lived in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 2000s. I lived in the far north and far south, the east coast and the west coast, Japan and Germany too. You guys think I've had my eyes closed the whole time?
Reading your stuff you'd think everyone was afraid to go outside and mingle with others fer krissakes.
"it wasn't some rosy past we lived in fifty years ago where no one got offended." I never said that, I simply said people weren't as thin skinned as they are today and I maintain that. Before you guys go nuts again, that doesn't as much as insinuate that it was a perfect world where women were treated fairly, no gay person ever got assaulted, no black person was ever treated unfairly, and that no unicorns or rabbits ever died.
Holy schidt!!!!!

Let me suggest a slightly different take on "thin-skinned" that may help you feel a bit better about it.

As others have pointed out, and you have acknowledged, folks who were 'different' faced serious consequences, including beatings, death, job discrimination, housing discrimination...ETC. The choice to be "thin-skinned" could literally get you killed. Or lose your job. If you dared speak up, it put a spotlight on you for those most unsympathetic to your 'difference', your objection to insult, your objection to discrimination.

And much of this was government sanctioned. Even the lynchings.

Folks didn't really have a choice to be "thin-skinned", to speak up.

Given my sense of your heart, I'm sure you will agree that it is truly wonderful that folks can now speak up with far, far less likely negative ramifications.

Perhaps it's better to celebrate that reality instead of being resentful that we need to therefore be a little more careful, more nuanced, in our language ourselves and how we listen to others?

BTW, I have no opinion on whatever Cuomo said...haven't followed it yet.

People didn't have a choice to be thin skinned is accurate.

[MDlaxfan76]

While I think Andy and his brother exaggerate a whole lot about the racism they experienced growing up, I sure don't see anything wrong with what he's saying here. Think this is another mountain being built from a mole hill.

“They used an expression that southern Italians were called, I believe they were saying southern Italians, Sicilians — I’m half Sicilian — were called, quote-unquote and pardon my language, but I’m just quoting the Times: ‘n----r wops.’ N-word wops, as a derogatory comment,” Cuomo told host Alan Chartock."
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/10/n ... rview.html

There was a heavy population of Italians where I grew up and they used wop, daygo, guinea constantly.
Was the norm and no one took offense. Of course that was before we built mountains from mole hills as
much as we do today and people weren't nearly as thin skinned as they are today. Seems to me as if people had a much better sense of humor and didn't make such a big deal out of everything. JMHO.

His use of the N-word was highly inappropriate. If you don’t understand that, then you’re still living in the 1950s (or modern day Alabama).

DocBarrister

I get it that this is your MO, Doc, but you really have to stop going to these kind of extremes in these kind of discussions. Just a little reminder that I was the one who called you out as the biggest racist, hands down, of anyone on this forum during Her Holiness' run for President. Your distaste for the white man and his ways could not have been made more clear. This is just another shot by you at a white guy that completely misses the mark.
Couple of questions:
Do we all agree that blacks own the N word, made it their own, and are the only ones who are "allowed" to use it? While I don't like it and it makes uncomfortable, I do get it. Just as it's okay for one sailor to call another a squid, an Italian to call another Italian a guinea, Irish folks calling one another Micks, etc, etc, etc.
If we agree that blacks can use the N word, why can't a n-word wop use it too, why can't they own their word too?
(Again, I think Andy and bro highly exaggerate the racism they experienced growing up and if someone called them a n-word wop they likely responded with, "Go phuk yourself you potato pickin' Mick", but you won't get that part from him or bro.)
No, it was not inappropriate, he was quoting what was printed in the NYT, but one word from the quote has been isolated and things are being blown way out of proportion here. Just the facts, ma'am.
I will agree with MDlax, Ffg, and the ever gentlemanly and thoughtful seacoaster's opinions of what I said here and disregard yours.

DocB,
Did you actually take a look at what Cuomo said, how he said it, the context it was said in...you know, his intent?

I'm surprised that you would condemn it (I don't know all the history you and DMac may have) if you've looked at it.

I hadn't been aware of the event, so looked to see for myself.
Maybe I'm truly missing something, but sure looks like an ok, careful, usage in context.

[youthathletics]

Target employees say company cut hours after raising wages: https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/ ... after.html

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

While I think Andy and his brother exaggerate a whole lot about the racism they experienced growing up, I sure don't see anything wrong with what he's saying here. Think this is another mountain being built from a mole hill.

“They used an expression that southern Italians were called, I believe they were saying southern Italians, Sicilians — I’m half Sicilian — were called, quote-unquote and pardon my language, but I’m just quoting the Times: ‘n----r wops.’ N-word wops, as a derogatory comment,” Cuomo told host Alan Chartock."
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/10/n ... rview.html

There was a heavy population of Italians where I grew up and they used wop, daygo, guinea constantly.
Was the norm and no one took offense. Of course that was before we built mountains from mole hills as
much as we do today and people weren't nearly as thin skinned as they are today. Seems to me as if people had a much better sense of humor and didn't make such a big deal out of everything. JMHO.

on the word "wop", i offer this (consider the source!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... onceptions

The anti-Italian slur wop did not originate from an acronym for "without papers" or "without passport", as is widely believed;[110][111][111][112] it is actually derived from the term guappo (roughly meaning thug), and was in use by 1908,[113][114] predating modern immigration laws.[115]

holmes- you drew an interesting point about italians not being considered whites at one point. there are definitely some gray areas when it comes to race...

im just happy we are having an open discussion!

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

While I think Andy and his brother exaggerate a whole lot about the racism they experienced growing up, I sure don't see anything wrong with what he's saying here. Think this is another mountain being built from a mole hill.

“They used an expression that southern Italians were called, I believe they were saying southern Italians, Sicilians — I’m half Sicilian — were called, quote-unquote and pardon my language, but I’m just quoting the Times: ‘n----r wops.’ N-word wops, as a derogatory comment,” Cuomo told host Alan Chartock."
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/10/n ... rview.html

There was a heavy population of Italians where I grew up and they used wop, daygo, guinea constantly.
Was the norm and no one took offense. Of course that was before we built mountains from mole hills as
much as we do today and people weren't nearly as thin skinned as they are today. Seems to me as if people had a much better sense of humor and didn't make such a big deal out of everything. JMHO.

His use of the N-word was highly inappropriate. If you don’t understand that, then you’re still living in the 1950s (or modern day Alabama).

DocBarrister

well any use of the word should be inappropriate, no?

unless for example, you are a college professor reading a passage to your class? what if you're a witness testifying in court? a museum curator teaching of the words' evils? an actress on stage reading her lines???

if context and intention matters- then the word is not inherently hurtful.

good luck trying to figure out what someone is thinking when they uttered a word. excellent point d-mac makes above.

[MDlaxfan76]

While I think Andy and his brother exaggerate a whole lot about the racism they experienced growing up, I sure don't see anything wrong with what he's saying here. Think this is another mountain being built from a mole hill.

“They used an expression that southern Italians were called, I believe they were saying southern Italians, Sicilians — I’m half Sicilian — were called, quote-unquote and pardon my language, but I’m just quoting the Times: ‘n----r wops.’ N-word wops, as a derogatory comment,” Cuomo told host Alan Chartock."
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/10/n ... rview.html

There was a heavy population of Italians where I grew up and they used wop, daygo, guinea constantly.
Was the norm and no one took offense. Of course that was before we built mountains from mole hills as
much as we do today and people weren't nearly as thin skinned as they are today. Seems to me as if people had a much better sense of humor and didn't make such a big deal out of everything. JMHO.

His use of the N-word was highly inappropriate. If you don’t understand that, then you’re still living in the 1950s (or modern day Alabama).

DocBarrister

well any use of the word should be inappropriate, no?

unless for example, you are a college professor reading a passage to your class? what if you're a witness testifying in court? a museum curator teaching of the words' evils? an actress on stage reading her lines???

if context and intention matters- then the word is not inherently hurtful.

good luck trying to figure out what someone is thinking when they uttered a word. excellent point d-mac makes above.

"good luck"???
You just shared several examples in which it's quite easy to understand context and intent. Seems to me that before we go off our rockers in condemnation of a particular usage it's simple common sense to look at the context, what the person appears to intend, and any other background information that may provide further understanding of intent or context.

In this one, sure seems like Cuomo's intent wasn't to give offense, to be hurtful. Not hard at all to see that.

That said, there are definitely edge issues around being sensitive to the possibility of being misunderstood and thus there's some responsibility for making it clear. Again, that appears to be what Cuomo did in this case.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

im gonna open my window now and shout it out to the streets.

how will any listeners react? hey i didnt mean it maliciously, so we're cool.

will they know what's going on between my own two ears? moreso than i do?

[Typical Lax Dad]

im gonna open my window now and shout it out to the streets.

how will any listeners react? hey i didnt mean it maliciously, so we're cool.

will they know what's going on between my own two ears? moreso than i do?

you should shout it out here....

[DMac]

I think you can pull it off, Chairman, get yourself one of those gongs and give the boys a hollar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAELs42aZt4

[6x6]

Watch it there honky, who you calling boys....

[Typical Lax Dad]

I think you can pull it off, Chairman, get yourself one of those gongs and give the boys a hollar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAELs42aZt4

Great minds think a like. You beat me to it!

[Typical Lax Dad]

Watch it there honky, who you calling boys....

[DocBarrister]

While I think Andy and his brother exaggerate a whole lot about the racism they experienced growing up, I sure don't see anything wrong with what he's saying here. Think this is another mountain being built from a mole hill.

“They used an expression that southern Italians were called, I believe they were saying southern Italians, Sicilians — I’m half Sicilian — were called, quote-unquote and pardon my language, but I’m just quoting the Times: ‘n----r wops.’ N-word wops, as a derogatory comment,” Cuomo told host Alan Chartock."
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2019/10/n ... rview.html

There was a heavy population of Italians where I grew up and they used wop, daygo, guinea constantly.
Was the norm and no one took offense. Of course that was before we built mountains from mole hills as
much as we do today and people weren't nearly as thin skinned as they are today. Seems to me as if people had a much better sense of humor and didn't make such a big deal out of everything. JMHO.

His use of the N-word was highly inappropriate. If you don’t understand that, then you’re still living in the 1950s (or modern day Alabama).

DocBarrister

I get it that this is your MO, Doc, but you really have to stop going to these kind of extremes in these kind of discussions. Just a little reminder that I was the one who called you out as the biggest racist, hands down, of anyone on this forum during Her Holiness' run for President. Your distaste for the white man and his ways could not have been made more clear. This is just another shot by you at a white guy that completely misses the mark.
Couple of questions:
Do we all agree that blacks own the N word, made it their own, and are the only ones who are "allowed" to use it? While I don't like it and it makes uncomfortable, I do get it. Just as it's okay for one sailor to call another a squid, an Italian to call another Italian a guinea, Irish folks calling one another Micks, etc, etc, etc.
If we agree that blacks can use the N word, why can't a n-word wop use it too, why can't they own their word too?
(Again, I think Andy and bro highly exaggerate the racism they experienced growing up and if someone called them a n-word wop they likely responded with, "Go phuk yourself you potato pickin' Mick", but you won't get that part from him or bro.)
No, it was not inappropriate, he was quoting what was printed in the NYT, but one word from the quote has been isolated and things are being blown way out of proportion here. Just the facts, ma'am.
I will agree with MDlax, Ffg, and the ever gentlemanly and thoughtful seacoaster's opinions of what I said here and disregard yours.

DocB,
Did you actually take a look at what Cuomo said, how he said it, the context it was said in...you know, his intent?

I'm surprised that you would condemn it (I don't know all the history you and DMac may have) if you've looked at it.

I hadn't been aware of the event, so looked to see for myself.
Maybe I'm truly missing something, but sure looks like an ok, careful, usage in context.

Yes, I did. The fact that even many well-intentioned folks like Cuomo (and DMAC is not well-intentioned in this regard) seemingly don’t understand why the comment was highly inappropriate is quite telling about how far we must still go in eliminating racism (even the unintentional kind) from our daily discourse and interactions. I have had more than a few professional colleagues say something to me that was intended as praise or friendly chat but that was, in essence, clearly based on racist notions of ethnicity. I don’t expect people to be perfect and rarely call people out when they make such mistakes ... and I’m sure I have made similar mistakes.

However, I am not the Governor of New York. He got called out on his mistake, and he should own up to it.

For the well-intentioned among you, it might be time for some introspection. For the non-well-intentioned among you, maybe it’s time to realize that blatant racism is still unseemly, even in the Trump Era.

DocBarrister

[dislaxxic]

WARREN WANTS TO END VOUCHERS AND TAX CREDITS FOR PRIVATE SCHOOLS AND REIN IN CHARTERS

Should private schools get gubmint help? Erstwile GOP socialists, any thoughts??

..

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

im gonna open my window now and shout it out to the streets.

how will any listeners react? hey i didnt mean it maliciously, so we're cool.

will they know what's going on between my own two ears? moreso than i do?

you should shout it out here....

exactly.

see? laxdad gets it.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

I think you can pull it off, Chairman, get yourself one of those gongs and give the boys a hollar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAELs42aZt4

just watched it recently, a few months ago.

any different than cosmo kramer???

[Typical Lax Dad]

im gonna open my window now and shout it out to the streets.

how will any listeners react? hey i didnt mean it maliciously, so we're cool.

will they know what's going on between my own two ears? moreso than i do?

you should shout it out here....

exactly.

see? laxdad gets it.

Yep. Let me know how it goes over down there..... Or let me know when you head down that way to shout it and I can see it for myself

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

one of two things occurred- either no one heard it (offensive?), or everyone who heard it knows that i didnt really mean it, so they were just ok with it

[MDlaxfan76]

im gonna open my window now and shout it out to the streets.

how will any listeners react? hey i didnt mean it maliciously, so we're cool.

will they know what's going on between my own two ears? moreso than i do?

you should shout it out here....

exactly.

see? laxdad gets it.

Yep. Let me know how it goes over down there..... Or let me know when you head down that way to shout it and I can see it for myself

Pretty sure the fellas would discern Chairman's ill intent in such shout just fine.
What's puzzling is that Chairman seems to imagine that him shouting out a window, anywhere, is going to interpreted otherwise. The only difference is folks taking notice enough to be offended, and why that's the case. Some on here seem to think folks are just "over sensitive".

They likewise won't understand the immense offensiveness of those, like Trump, using the word "lynching" to describe a fully judicial process such as impeachment.

Doc, I really gotta disagree with you on this re Cuomo in specific and indeed whether the word can be used, carefully and intentionally, by those who really should be concerned about their intent being understood. In this case, I think we can see that Cuomo understands the power of the word and indeed is suggesting that we take seriously that power. But perhaps I'm still missing something about his usage that you see.

I've personally managed to avoid using the word entirely, using the common euphemism. I'd recommend that unless there's a darn compelling reason to do otherwise.