Little history lesson from the last go round, in a letter to Pat:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html
"Dear Pat,
We have never met. But I have also had the heavy responsibility you face today of representing a presidency in an impeachment proceeding, and after reading the letter you sent to Congress last week I felt compelled to write you this letter and offer you some advice.
You are not the first White House official to view an impeachment inquiry as “highly partisan.” President Richard M. Nixon’s staff called the House Judiciary Committee a “kangaroo court ” and charged that it had violated the president’s due process. On the day of President Bill Clinton’s impeachment, one of my colleagues said that “nothing about this process has been fair.”
In 1998, we felt under siege. From the moment that independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr delivered his report to Congress in a convoy of SUVs, we knew Clinton would not receive a fair hearing. A relentless barrage of leaks from Congress and severe partisan attacks against the president followed.
We argued at the time, as you do in your letter, that Congress should provide additional procedural protections to the president. Although the House Judiciary Committee afforded us some measures, we still thought they were wholly inadequate. For example, instead of conducting its own investigation, the committee relied almost exclusively on Starr’s report, which had serious flaws. The House took only three months to adopt articles of impeachment, and we had only two days to present our witnesses. The president’s personal lawyer, David Kendall, had only 30 minutes to question Starr. We felt this was deeply unfair and a derogation of the House’s constitutional duty to investigate thoroughly whether impeachment was warranted.
But we never considered the possibility of refusing entirely to participate in the impeachment inquiry or completely blocking the House’s access to documents and witnesses. We understood that, regardless of how partisan the impeachment process was, we had the moral, ethical and legal obligation to operate within the bounds of our constitutional system.
The Constitution grants the “sole Power of Impeachment” to the House of Representatives. Confronted with an exercise of that power, the White House, of course, can and should push for procedural fairness. It is not enough, however, simply to assert, as you have, that the impeachment inquiry is “invalid ” and therefore that the president has no choice but to refuse to participate.
A total refusal to respect our constitutional system is without precedent. The founders understood, as Alexander Hamilton wrote , that impeachment, by its nature, “will seldom fail to agitate the passions of the whole community, and to divide it into parties more or less friendly or inimical to the accused.” Nevertheless, the White House cannot reject Congress’s authority on the mere grounds that it believes the House of Representatives seeks to “reverse” a past election and “influence” a future one.
If President Trump’s White House bears any resemblance to Nixon’s or Clinton’s, I assume you feel unfairly attacked. Nixon’s speechwriter, Pat Buchanan, accused “the big media” of distorting coverage of Nixon during his impeachment process, and we felt that Clinton was subjected to numerous unwarranted attacks. That said, we recognized that Congress’s motives for initiating an impeachment inquiry had no bearing on its constitutional authority to do so. We also understood that we had an independent and solemn responsibility to do our part to preserve our system of checks and balances by participating in the impeachment process.
You are not representing just any client. As White House counsel, you have a responsibility to serve the Office of the President, not the president himself. Your letter unfortunately conveys a different understanding.
You should object and make cogent legal arguments to resist what you perceive as congressional overreach. Indeed, we fought hard at times to ensure a degree of fairness to the proceedings, and I advise you to do the same. Be zealous in your advocacy. That’s expected and appropriate. But you do not have a right merely to will Congress’s authority away. It’s wrong to try, and it won’t work.
Moreover, such an ill-conceived and extra-constitutional strategy could cause lasting damage to the presidency and to the ability of the branches of government to function the way our founders envisioned. Of particular note, it could also inflict collateral damage on our justice system more generally, sending the message that subpoenas can be disregarded at will.
The White House counsel should convey respect for our constitutional system, not disregard for it, and defend the presidency without seeming to reject wholesale our constitutional system of checks and balances. I have confidence that our system is stronger than any one person, and you should, too.
My best,
Lanny"
Trump's Russian Collusion
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Lindsay Graham, whom I understand is a politician from North and/or South Carolina (USA), had a brilliant comment regarding complying with Subpoenas.BRAVO!
ORANGE? No flaming way. Trump's bird's nest is indeed Orange. Lindsay's is GOLDEN!
https://fortune.com/2018/08/22/lindsay- ... peachment/
POMPEO/BARR
ORANGE? No flaming way. Trump's bird's nest is indeed Orange. Lindsay's is GOLDEN!
https://fortune.com/2018/08/22/lindsay- ... peachment/
POMPEO/BARR
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Which one is Rudy? Curly, I guess, although Curly had some redeeming qualities. Any that Rudy ever had are now long gone.seacoaster wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:00 pm substituting as his envoys Moe, Larry and Curly for career diplomats with expertise in the region
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
They called themselves the Three Amigos.njbill wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:35 pmWhich one is Rudy? Curly, I guess, although Curly had some redeeming qualities. Any that Rudy ever had are now long gone.seacoaster wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:00 pm substituting as his envoys Moe, Larry and Curly for career diplomats with expertise in the region
So Rudy is Martin Short? Sondland Chevy Chase? Rick Perry Steve Martin?
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Four Fools? Five clowns? Who knows?
Another Giuliani associate arrested at JFK airport. This is getting interesting.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/politics ... index.html
Change of schedule for the Giuliani associates charged with violating campaign finance laws. David Correia and Andrey Kukushkin will be arraigned tomorrow afternoon in SDNY, and the arraignment for Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman has been pushed back to 10/23
Another Giuliani associate arrested at JFK airport. This is getting interesting.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/politics ... index.html
Change of schedule for the Giuliani associates charged with violating campaign finance laws. David Correia and Andrey Kukushkin will be arraigned tomorrow afternoon in SDNY, and the arraignment for Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman has been pushed back to 10/23
“I don’t take responsibility at all.” —Donald J Trump
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
The guys arrested literally look like victims in the first John wick or a bad Nick cage movie...
I take exception to the besmirching of a fine 80s movie. Perhaps they’re more like characters in the original Mad Max?
I take exception to the besmirching of a fine 80s movie. Perhaps they’re more like characters in the original Mad Max?
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Today's State Dept pro (McKinley) testimony:
He quit over Ukraine.
He quit over using ambassadors overseas to advance a domestic political objective.
Next up, Amb. Sondland.
He quit over Ukraine.
He quit over using ambassadors overseas to advance a domestic political objective.
Next up, Amb. Sondland.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Now you are talking. The Nightrider and Toecutter. May we also add the Wez from The Road Warrior?Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:50 pm Perhaps they’re more like characters in the original Mad Max?
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Wave it all through, fellas. Americans don't care.
Nixon would still be President if these morally bankrupt voters were voting in the 70's.
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Americans didn't care for a long time under Nixon. It took nearly a year after Senate Hearings started for public support of Nixon's removal from office to reach 50%. It was near that on day 1 of the house impeachment inquiry for Trump.
Trump is starting from a much worse position due to his terrible policies and him being a terrible person. Even in this time of divisiveness, there is still a good amount of support for decency and the rule of law.
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Holmes -- your history is correct and I hope you are right. But my hunch is that you are wrong. Because our polarized politics of today are a completely different animal than what we had in the 70s and 80s.Trump is starting from a much worse position due to his terrible policies and him being a terrible person. Even in this time of divisiveness, there is still a good amount of support for decency and the rule of law.
In 1972, Nixon carried 49 states with the popular vote being 61R-38D. In 1984, Reagan won 59R-41D. Lots of Dems crossed over and voted R in those cycles. If the 2020 election was Jesus vs. Hitler, you would not see numbers like that. Negative partisanship rules.
Today, there is only a tiny tiny fraction of persuadable swing voters as compared to the olden days. 2018 was a legitimate Dem landslide at +8.6%. With so many people hard wired red or blue, it is close to impossible that public opinion can swing enough to boot Trump.
Nixon's net approval rating went from +48 at second inauguration to -36 at resignation. Both of those numbers are basically impossible today. Trump has been between -10 and -15 net approval since inauguration. He's -12.3 today. Even if he did shoot someone on 5th Avenue, he'd likely still be stuck inside that band.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Pelosi went after Trump on Syria during WH meeting, accusing him of once again advancing Putin’s interests: "All roads with you lead to Putin," Pelosi said, according to a senior Democratic aide. Trump just released the now iconic photo, I guess so we’ll feel sorry for him.
“I don’t take responsibility at all.” —Donald J Trump
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
You're correct in your analysis of current voters, but remember more than 2/5 of eligible voters don't vote. As well, just two presidencies ago W Bush had a 92% approval rating.ggait wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:04 pmHolmes -- your history is correct and I hope you are right. But my hunch is that you are wrong. Because our polarized politics of today are a completely different animal than what we had in the 70s and 80s.Trump is starting from a much worse position due to his terrible policies and him being a terrible person. Even in this time of divisiveness, there is still a good amount of support for decency and the rule of law.
In 1972, Nixon carried 49 states with the popular vote being 61R-38D. In 1984, Reagan won 59R-41D. Lots of Dems crossed over and voted R in those cycles. If the 2020 election was Jesus vs. Hitler, you would not see numbers like that. Negative partisanship rules.
Today, there is only a tiny tiny fraction of persuadable swing voters as compared to the olden days. 2018 was a legitimate Dem landslide at +8.6%. With so many people hard wired red or blue, it is close to impossible that public opinion can swing enough to boot Trump.
Nixon's net approval rating went from +48 at second inauguration to -36 at resignation. Both of those numbers are basically impossible today. Trump has been between -10 and -15 net approval since inauguration. He's -12.3 today. Even if he did shoot someone on 5th Avenue, he'd likely still be stuck inside that band.
Active voters are polarized, but you have a very large portion of inactive Americans that can be energized if they see fit to act. There is much more that unites us than divides us.
It's a tough environment for sure, but there are still a few slivers of hope for sanity out there. If we give up trying, then our adversaries have won.
- MDlaxfan76
- Posts: 27139
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Well, one thing is for sure: it's all being put to the test.holmes435 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:51 pmYou're correct in your analysis of current voters, but remember more than 2/5 of eligible voters don't vote. As well, just two presidencies ago W Bush had a 92% approval rating.ggait wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:04 pmHolmes -- your history is correct and I hope you are right. But my hunch is that you are wrong. Because our polarized politics of today are a completely different animal than what we had in the 70s and 80s.Trump is starting from a much worse position due to his terrible policies and him being a terrible person. Even in this time of divisiveness, there is still a good amount of support for decency and the rule of law.
In 1972, Nixon carried 49 states with the popular vote being 61R-38D. In 1984, Reagan won 59R-41D. Lots of Dems crossed over and voted R in those cycles. If the 2020 election was Jesus vs. Hitler, you would not see numbers like that. Negative partisanship rules.
Today, there is only a tiny tiny fraction of persuadable swing voters as compared to the olden days. 2018 was a legitimate Dem landslide at +8.6%. With so many people hard wired red or blue, it is close to impossible that public opinion can swing enough to boot Trump.
Nixon's net approval rating went from +48 at second inauguration to -36 at resignation. Both of those numbers are basically impossible today. Trump has been between -10 and -15 net approval since inauguration. He's -12.3 today. Even if he did shoot someone on 5th Avenue, he'd likely still be stuck inside that band.
Active voters are polarized, but you have a very large portion of inactive Americans that can be energized if they see fit to act. There is much more that unites us than divides us.
It's a tough environment for sure, but there are still a few slivers of hope for sanity out there. If we give up trying, then our adversaries have won.
I'm hoping we'll show up and ace it.
But it sure isn't a slam dunk that'll happen.
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Take the Trump regime and LOCK THEM UP!
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.
Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
GOP Senators are elected politicians. So they only care about voters. And they primarily only care about GOP voters.You're correct in your analysis of current voters, but remember more than 2/5 of eligible voters don't vote. Active voters are polarized, but you have a very large portion of inactive Americans that can be energized if they see fit to act.
Support for removing Trump among GOP voters has increased dramatically. It is now all the way up to...18%.
Removal support among Indies is up to 49%, but that number is extremely misleading. Because most nominal independents have a pretty strong partisan lean when you scratch the surface. So 49% basically means that Dem-leaning Indies support removal and GOP-leaning Indies do not.
Bottom line, you'll need to see that 18% number double before removal can even be thought of as a possibility. Could happen, but no signs it is happening yet.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
Public opinion polls measuring a desire to impeach and remove President Clinton never got above 35%.
Just sayin’...
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Just sayin’...
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"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
and he was impeached, but not removed. And IMHO, there would have been a pretty good chance he would have been re-elected if that had been his first term.
STILL somewhere back in the day....
...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
...and waiting/hoping for a tinfoil hat emoji......
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
"Did he also mention to me in [the] past the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely.... No question about that. But that's it, and that's why we held up the money."
WH Chief of Staff Mulvaney.
That's OK, right? Holding congressionally-approved aid up to an ally facing the Russians on its frontier, in an effort to extract a promise to help with an investigation of the other domestic political party? All cool? Obama does this, it'd be no prob, right? Tan Suit? Binder clip? What does Trey think?
WH Chief of Staff Mulvaney.
That's OK, right? Holding congressionally-approved aid up to an ally facing the Russians on its frontier, in an effort to extract a promise to help with an investigation of the other domestic political party? All cool? Obama does this, it'd be no prob, right? Tan Suit? Binder clip? What does Trey think?
Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Public Opinion Starting to Turn.
That's what you would expect.Public opinion polls measuring a desire to impeach and remove President Clinton never got above 35%.
Just sayin’...
Clinton was basically at zero removal risk the entire time and everyone knew that. The Senate was GOP controlled (55R and 45D) at that time. Clinton got 10 GOP votes on the perjury charge and 5 GOP votes on the obstruction charge. TL/DR -- it was a complete joke.
While Trump is clearly more at risk than Clinton, he's much much much closer to Clinton than Nixon.
Sentiment against Trump could certainly change. But to really be at risk, you'd need to add about 20 points to the current removal sentiment of the GOP and of Indies.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.