JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[3rdPersonPlural]

Ultimately, we don’t yet know whether Trump’s withdrawal from Syria had a quid pro quo component, despite so many reports of similar agreements. Lacking any other decent explanation, the possibilities are harrowing. The only thing we can ascertain for sure is that Trump’s cheese is quickly sliding off his cracker in the face of his likely impeachment. We also know that Trump clearly didn’t make this decision based on a nuanced understanding of Middle East policy, nor was it the result of advice from career foreign policy experts. What else could it be — and what new devilry is waiting for us tomorrow? We need real answers, and soon.

https://www.salon.com/2019/10/08/what-s ... ind-reels/

Any guesses?

[jhu72]

Top Military Officers Unload on Trump

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... mp/598360/

Author Mark Bowden:

Military officers are sworn to serve whomever voters send to the White House. Cognizant of the special authority they hold, high-level officers epitomize respect for the chain of command, and are extremely reticent about criticizing their civilian overseers. That those I spoke with made an exception in Trump’s case is telling, and much of what they told me is deeply disturbing. In 20 years of writing about the military, I have never heard officers in high positions express such alarm about a president. Trump’s pronouncements and orders have already risked catastrophic and unnecessary wars in the Middle East and Asia, and have created severe problems for field commanders engaged in combat operations. Frequently caught unawares by Trump’s statements, senior military officers have scrambled, in their aftermath, to steer the country away from tragedy. How many times can they successfully do that before faltering?

(my bolding)

Bowden is the author of "Black Hawk Down"...

Five basic characterizations of Trump:

1. He disdains experience
2. He trusts only his own instincts
3. He resists coherent strategy
4. "He is reflexively contrary"
5. He has a simplistic and antiquated notion of soldiering

Great (and scary) read...

Good read but for the most part obvious (observable) from the outside. I am struck by how the above list of characteristics tracks with what I perceive as characteristics of a great many of his working class supporters.

[RedFromMI]

Top Military Officers Unload on Trump

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... mp/598360/

Author Mark Bowden:

Military officers are sworn to serve whomever voters send to the White House. Cognizant of the special authority they hold, high-level officers epitomize respect for the chain of command, and are extremely reticent about criticizing their civilian overseers. That those I spoke with made an exception in Trump’s case is telling, and much of what they told me is deeply disturbing. In 20 years of writing about the military, I have never heard officers in high positions express such alarm about a president. Trump’s pronouncements and orders have already risked catastrophic and unnecessary wars in the Middle East and Asia, and have created severe problems for field commanders engaged in combat operations. Frequently caught unawares by Trump’s statements, senior military officers have scrambled, in their aftermath, to steer the country away from tragedy. How many times can they successfully do that before faltering?

(my bolding)

Bowden is the author of "Black Hawk Down"...

Five basic characterizations of Trump:

1. He disdains experience
2. He trusts only his own instincts
3. He resists coherent strategy
4. "He is reflexively contrary"
5. He has a simplistic and antiquated notion of soldiering

Great (and scary) read...

Good read but for the most part obvious (observable) from the outside. I am struck by how the above list of characteristics tracks with what I perceive as characteristics of a great many of his working class supporters.

It is also the mark of someone who fails to learn from history and is doomed to repeat it...

I just don't like being along for the ride.

[jhu72]

Top Military Officers Unload on Trump

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... mp/598360/

Author Mark Bowden:

Military officers are sworn to serve whomever voters send to the White House. Cognizant of the special authority they hold, high-level officers epitomize respect for the chain of command, and are extremely reticent about criticizing their civilian overseers. That those I spoke with made an exception in Trump’s case is telling, and much of what they told me is deeply disturbing. In 20 years of writing about the military, I have never heard officers in high positions express such alarm about a president. Trump’s pronouncements and orders have already risked catastrophic and unnecessary wars in the Middle East and Asia, and have created severe problems for field commanders engaged in combat operations. Frequently caught unawares by Trump’s statements, senior military officers have scrambled, in their aftermath, to steer the country away from tragedy. How many times can they successfully do that before faltering?

(my bolding)

Bowden is the author of "Black Hawk Down"...

Five basic characterizations of Trump:

1. He disdains experience
2. He trusts only his own instincts
3. He resists coherent strategy
4. "He is reflexively contrary"
5. He has a simplistic and antiquated notion of soldiering

Great (and scary) read...

Good read but for the most part obvious (observable) from the outside. I am struck by how the above list of characteristics tracks with what I perceive as characteristics of a great many of his working class supporters.

It is also the mark of someone who fails to learn from history and is doomed to repeat it...

I just don't like being along for the ride.

I'll second that!

[MDlaxfan76]

Trump can apply pressure to Erdogan, and he's not doing that.

Trump just got blindsided by Erdogan.
Our military, diplomats & IC thought we had an agreement with the Turks that was working.
We still don't know what the Turks will do & if the SDF will resist.
Trump has limited options & leverage over Erdogan.
We need Turkey as an ally more than they need us.
It's their southern border, not ours.

That is a truly ridiculous assertion. Your efforts to defend Trump have really become repugnant.

I’m no fan of US troops in Syria, but we are there and the United States made promises to the Syrian Kurdish militias. They were on the frontlines against ISIS in Syria and hold over 10,000 ISIS fighters in camps that they control (who will escape if Erdogan, who is thought to have provided illicit support to ISIS, massacres the Kurds). Many thousands of Kurds died fighting ISIS at the insistence of the United States.

And now we’re simply going to abandon them and let Erdogan slaughter them. All because Trump impulsively decided to leave without performing any of the necessary diplomatic and military groundwork to depart in an organized manner.

Should note that this move serves Erdogan (despite Trump’s “threat” against Turkey after Republican members of Congress complained). By the way, Trump has his name on two towers in Istanbul, which have “earned” Trump millions.

It also serves Putin and his ally, Iran. Just another indication that Trump is an agent of Russia, which has largely financed the Trump Organization.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/07/middle ... 9999999999

America’s allies all over the world are noting Trump’s betrayal of the Syrian Kurds. Who’s going to trust us now after Trump gave up the Kurds for slaughter?

DocBarrister

Repugnant. +1

[a fan]

Liberals don’t screw allies.

If the Kurds are allies? Great. Draw up a military agreement.

Remember that Bush sold us on the idea that Iraqi citizen as well as countries in that region were our allies. That wasn't true. And we paid the price for Bush's line of thinking.

We haven't had a liberal President since FDR. Obama was center-right. But even still, I'd wager we could find Iraqi citizens who felt betrayed that he left Iraq "too soon".

We can support the Kurds without using our troops. You of all people should understand that. You're just hitting Trump on this issue because he's Trump.

[old salt]

Trump can apply pressure to Erdogan, and he's not doing that.

Trump just got blindsided by Erdogan.
Our military, diplomats & IC thought we had an agreement with the Turks that was working.
We still don't know what the Turks will do & if the SDF will resist.
Trump has limited options & leverage over Erdogan.
We need Turkey as an ally more than they need us.
It's their southern border, not ours.

That is a truly ridiculous assertion. Your efforts to defend Trump have really become repugnant.

I’m no fan of US troops in Syria, but we are there and the United States made promises to the Syrian Kurdish militias. They were on the frontlines against ISIS in Syria and hold over 10,000 ISIS fighters in camps that they control (who will escape if Erdogan, who is thought to have provided illicit support to ISIS, massacres the Kurds). Many thousands of Kurds died fighting ISIS at the insistence of the United States.

And now we’re simply going to abandon them and let Erdogan slaughter them. All because Trump impulsively decided to leave without performing any of the necessary diplomatic and military groundwork to depart in an organized manner.

Should note that this move serves Erdogan (despite Trump’s “threat” against Turkey after Republican members of Congress complained). By the way, Trump has his name on two towers in Istanbul, which have “earned” Trump millions.

It also serves Putin and his ally, Iran. Just another indication that Trump is an agent of Russia, which has largely financed the Trump Organization.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/07/middle ... 9999999999

America’s allies all over the world are noting Trump’s betrayal of the Syrian Kurds. Who’s going to trust us now after Trump gave up the Kurds for slaughter?

DocBarrister

Repugnant. +1

So what would you geniuses do ?
Leave our 50 Rangers exposed ?
Doc says Trump OK'd Erdogan's move.
What's the basis for that assertion ?
Read the POLITICO article.

[old salt]

Ultimately, we don’t yet know whether Trump’s withdrawal from Syria had a quid pro quo component, despite so many reports of similar agreements. Lacking any other decent explanation, the possibilities are harrowing. The only thing we can ascertain for sure is that Trump’s cheese is quickly sliding off his cracker in the face of his likely impeachment. We also know that Trump clearly didn’t make this decision based on a nuanced understanding of Middle East policy, nor was it the result of advice from career foreign policy experts. What else could it be — and what new devilry is waiting for us tomorrow? We need real answers, and soon.

https://www.salon.com/2019/10/08/what-s ... ind-reels/

Any guesses?

We had 50 troops, in 2 border outposts, in vulnerable positions.
Trump withdrew them to elsewhere in Syria.
He hasn't withdrawn the rest of our forces from Syria.

Maybe this will get the EUros & Arab states moving to take custody of their IS fighters & families being held prisoner.
The media speculation is getting way ahead of what's happening along the Turkish-Syrian border.

[old salt]

Assad's outreach to the Syrian Kurds :

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/ ... 45495.html

Syrian minister calls on Kurds to reconcile with government

Faisal Mekdad, Syria's deputy foreign minister, called on Syrian Kurds to rejoin the government side rather than "plunge into the abyss" as Kurdish militias in the country's northeast brace for an imminent Turkish attack.

"The homeland welcomes all its sons and Damascus will solve all Syrian problems in a positive way, away from violence," Mekdad was quoted as saying by the pro-government Al-Watan newspaper.

"We advise those who have gone astray to return to the nation, because the nation is their final destiny," he added, vowing to "defend all Syrian territory".

Mekdad's comments were the first Syrian government reaction since Trump's announcement on withdrawing US troops from the northern region.

[old salt]

If Turkey invades, their likely first phase :

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/ ... 08983.html

Syria's northeastern border region with Turkey stretches 480km (300 miles) from the Euphrates River in the west to the border with Iraq in the east. The area is currently controlled by the SDF.

Turkey is yet to reveal the exact scope of its planned incursion. It had previously suggested it would carry out military operations east of the Euphrates, prior to agreeing in early August on the so-called "safe zone" plan with the US, under which Kurdish forces would be pulled back from the Turkey-Syria border.

For now, Ankara's plans could focus on a stretch of territory about 100km (60 miles) wide along the border, between the towns of Ras al-Ain and Tel Abyad, from where the YPG withdrew in late August.

On Monday, a US official told Reuters News Agency that US forces had already pulled out from border posts in the thinly populated area, which has historically had a strong Arab presence.

This looks like an opening gambit (with minimal resistance & casualties) as a show of determination, then see the reaction.

[foreverlax]

So what would you geniuses do ?

Wow tough question - I would listen to people actually qualified to offer insight vs doing stupid crap in a half-a$$sed attempt to fulfill a campaign promise.

Trump makes his decisions based on hubris and the Dunning Kruger Effect.

[old salt]

Best detail I could find on the Turk's initial (air?)strike to cut SDF reinforcement/resupply routes :

https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/turk ... 30841.html

DAMASCUS (UrduPoint News / Sputnik - 08th October, 2019) Two bridges were destroyed at a checkpoint on the border between Syria and Iraq as a result of Turkish airstrikes on Monday, the Sham FM radio reported.

"Turkish airstrikes against the Samalka checkpoint on the border with Iraq led to the destruction of two bridges at the crossing located in the northeast of Hasakah province," the radio station said in a broadcast.

The Samalka checkpoint is controlled by the Arab-Kurdish units of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF).

The Syrian state television reported earlier that Turkish aircraft attacked an SDF base inear the city of al-Malikiya in Hasakah province.

al-Malikiya

The "airstrike" might have been a mortar attack :

https://smartnews-agency.com/en/album/2 ... akah#65152

Al-Hasakah, Syria, Apr. 4, 2018. Two civilian cars return from the Samalka checkpoint crossing after Turkish forces dropped mortar shells on the crossing between the territory of Iraqi Kurdistan and the governorate of al-Hasakah, Northeastern Syria. The shelling injured two members of the Asayish security forces of the Kurdish Autonomous Administration. The shells were dropped near the checkpoint crossing between the cities of al-Qamishli and al-Malikiyah. The Asayish ordered the civilians to leave the crossing, causing all traffic to stop. One of the shells targeted the checkpoint of Asayish near the village of Kharab Ashk from the al-Malikiyah side, wounding two Asayish fighters. The International Coalition uses the crossing to reinforce the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), and it is also a busy crossing for trade and civilian traffic. Turkey threatens to launch further military operations similar to the Olive Branch Operation in the areas controlled by the Kurdish People’s Protection Units, which is the main component of the SDF.

The Semalka border crossing is a pontoon bridge across the Tigris established by the Kurdistan Regional Government during the Syrian Civil War about 1 km (0.62 mi) downstream from the Iraqi–Syrian–Turkish tripoint, and just north of Faysh Khabur in Iraq.

[DocBarrister]

Liberals don’t screw allies.

If the Kurds are allies? Great. Draw up a military agreement.

Remember that Bush sold us on the idea that Iraqi citizen as well as countries in that region were our allies. That wasn't true. And we paid the price for Bush's line of thinking.

We haven't had a liberal President since FDR. Obama was center-right. But even still, I'd wager we could find Iraqi citizens who felt betrayed that he left Iraq "too soon".

We can support the Kurds without using our troops. You of all people should understand that. You're just hitting Trump on this issue because he's Trump.

I’m hardly alone in criticizing Trump’s betrayal of the Kurds. Republicans, Democrats, the Pentagon, national security advisers, and U.S. allies have all criticized this decision. If you have a problem with that, take it up with them.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

Apparently the feckless EUros expect their citizens who joined IS & are now prisoners, to be tried & detained indefinitely in NE Syria, ...by somebody else.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 10/08/2019

European officials were angered and taken aback Monday by the Trump administration’s abrupt decision to withdraw U.S. troops from the Syrian-Turkish border, as Turkey prepares a long-awaited offensive on U.S.-allied Kurdish forces in the region.

“Any unilateral action could have significant humanitarian consequences and would not provide the conditions for the safe and voluntary return of refugees to their areas of origin,” the French Foreign Ministry said in a statement. “It would undermine the stability of this region and our direct efforts on the ground.”

Norbert Röttgen, head of the foreign affairs committee in the German parliament, was more direct. The U.S. “troop withdrawal from northern Syria constitutes another abrupt and destabilizing foreign policy move by the United States,” he said.
“This damages U.S. credibility and stability in the entire region. The planned Turkish offensive is contrary to international law and further militarizes the Kurdish conflict,” he added.

“Renewed armed hostilities in the northeast will not only exacerbate civilian suffering and lead to massive displacement but will also risk severely undermining current political efforts,” European Commission spokeswoman Maja Kocijancic told reporters Monday, stopping short of mentioning President Trump by name.

While defending the withdrawal decision, Trump lashed out at European allies early Monday, taking aim at their reluctance to repatriate citizens who went to fight for the Islamic State in Syria and now are imprisoned in Kurdish-controlled camps near the Syrian border.

“Europe did not want them back, they said you keep them USA,” Trump tweeted. “I said ‘NO, we did you a great favor and now you want us to hold them in U.S. prisons at tremendous cost. They are yours for trials.’”

[a fan]

So "everyone else thinks that", so you do, too...is that it?

Nice.

Our men and women are out of another un-winnable, pointless battle in a country 99.99% of Americans can't find on a map.

Works for me.

[HooDat]

So "everyone else thinks that", so you do, too...is that it?

Nice.

Our men and women are out of another un-winnable, pointless battle in a country 99.99% of Americans can't find on a map.

Works for me.

me too.

Tulsi is getting the stiff-arm from the Dems because she would do the same thing. Gotta love the fact that a woman won't be given a reasonable chance at the Dem nomination because she is too dovish. Because what we really need is Biden or Warren..

[DocBarrister]

This should put to rest any idiotic notion that Erdogan “blindsided” or “forced” Trump into allowing Turkey to invade Syria. Trump, who has significant personal commercial interests in Turkey, ENDORSED Turkey’s invasion.


WASHINGTON — In a major shift in United States military policy in Syria, the White House said on Sunday that President Trump had given his endorsement for a Turkish military operation that would sweep away American-backed Kurdish forces near the border in Syria.

Turkey considers the Kurdish forces to be a terrorist insurgency, and has long sought to end American support for the group.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/us/p ... syria.html

Trump betrayed the Kurds, and he did it willingly, probably to protect his commercial interests in Turkey.

DocBarrister

[MDlaxfan76]

This should put to rest any idiotic notion that Erdogan “blindsided” or “forced” Trump into allowing Turkey to invade Syria. Trump, who has significant personal commercial interests in Turkey, ENDORSED Turkey’s invasion.


WASHINGTON — In a major shift in United States military policy in Syria, the White House said on Sunday that President Trump had given his endorsement for a Turkish military operation that would sweep away American-backed Kurdish forces near the border in Syria.

Turkey considers the Kurdish forces to be a terrorist insurgency, and has long sought to end American support for the group.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/us/p ... syria.html

Trump betrayed the Kurds, and he did it willingly, probably to protect his commercial interests in Turkey.

DocBarrister

The latter bit about Trump's motivation is speculative, but the rest appears to be confirmed.
And he did it without warning the Kurds, without consultation from his own advisors, and without consultation of our allies.
Which is why R's are going nuts, not just D's.

But Salty, true to form, says this is the right move by Trump...gee, what does Russia think?

[old salt]

This should put to rest any idiotic notion that Erdogan “blindsided” or “forced” Trump into allowing Turkey to invade Syria. Trump, who has significant personal commercial interests in Turkey, ENDORSED Turkey’s invasion.


WASHINGTON — In a major shift in United States military policy in Syria, the White House said on Sunday that President Trump had given his endorsement for a Turkish military operation that would sweep away American-backed Kurdish forces near the border in Syria.

Turkey considers the Kurdish forces to be a terrorist insurgency, and has long sought to end American support for the group.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/us/p ... syria.html

Trump betrayed the Kurds, and he did it willingly, probably to protect his commercial interests in Turkey.

DocBarrister

The latter bit about Trump's motivation is speculative, but the rest appears to be confirmed.
And he did it without warning the Kurds, without consultation from his own advisors, and without consultation of our allies.
Which is why R's are going nuts, not just D's.

But Salty, true to form, says this is the right move by Trump...gee, what does Russia think?

Stop trying to speak for me. You're not qualified. Nowhere have I said that Trump is making the right move. I'm telling you why he's doing what he's doing. We still don't know what Trump has committed to, other than pulling back 50 exposed troops that shouldn't be on hostage tripwire duty, when our mission there is to fight ISIS. I'm not for pulling out all our troops (yet). I've objected to these joint patrols as a misuse of our troops since they were started.

We've been hearing that Trump was pulling out all our troops, Turkey has started air strikes, Kurds are being slaughtered.
As usual, it's shown to be hysterical BS. Do you think Erdogan is going to start "slaughtering Kurds" a month before he visits DC to get his F-35 program back on track ? Get a grip, try putting your political prejudice aside & don't sucker for every agenda driven leak.

[ToastDunk]

Hillary Clinton: Trump’s actions ‘direct threat’ to national security
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/hilla ... l-security