JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[old salt]

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/0 ... ers-037958

Potus went rogue.

An administration official familiar with the contents of the call agreed, saying that Erdoğan had insisted a military offensive was his only option, dismissing the safe zones — and that Trump pushed back against Erdoğan, telling him the U.S. wouldn’t support the offensive.

Trump “tried to tell him that we need to let our militaries work this out, we understand the security mechanism is working,” the official said of the call. “Erdoğan said no, that’s not the case, it’s not working … The president made clear to him that if you do this, you’re on your own, we’re not going to support this in any way, shape or form.”

“We were hearing from the Turkish military that they completely agreed with us that the security mechanism was working,” the official said, but “Erdoğan was not on the same page as that.”

After the call, Trump decided to move U.S. troops out of the area to ensure they wouldn’t be caught in the crossfire.

“Nobody knows what the Turks will actually do here,” the administration official said.

“Secretary Esper and Chairman [Mark] Milley reiterated to their respective Turkish counterparts that unilateral action creates risks for Turkey,” Hoffman added.

Jack Keane, a retired Army general who has advised Trump on national security issues, said he didn't believe Trump meant to endorse the Turkish move, and that on the phone call yesterday, as he understands it, Erdoğan told Trump that Turkey had no other option but military action — ignoring the safe zone system that has been getting underway.

“I don’t think the U.S. decision is endorsing Turkish military action by getting out of the way,” Keane said. “When Erdoğan brought up the Syrian issue on the phone call, I understand he presented it as if [Erdoğan] had no other choice, which is surprising given that negotiations were ongoing.”

The announcement Sunday night also surprised the State Department’s special representative for Syria, Jim Jeffrey, and his aides, according to the person familiar with the U.S. government's deliberations. Last week, Jeffrey and his aides “thought Turkey was bluffing, that the bluff was for domestic audiences, and that they could make the safe zone work,” the person said. “There was talk about how to manage Turkey, albeit without giving them a permanent presence,” including by informing Turkey that even after U.S. troops eventually left, U.S. aircraft would still patrol the region.

Those plans appear to be out the window after the Trump-Erdogan call, the person said.
But Keane suggested they might be salvaged as the Turkish military realizes the difficulties of fighting against the Syrian Democratic Forces ⁠— especially if those forces, lacking U.S. air support, instead turn to the Assad regime for protection.

“There was a pathway to a diplomatic solution, and I sense as the Turks look at this clear-eyed, there may be enough motivation to get us back on the pathway,” Keane said.

Trump didn't go rogue. Erdogan did.

[a fan]

They got nearly a year of delay from when Trump announced he was pulling out & fullfilling his campaign pledge.
Trump gave fair warning -- we're out of the nation building & regime change business.
So long as the US has forces there, it's our problem.
Allies & neighbors are happy to sit on their hands.

I'm thrilled with the troops leaving. Every lib in America should be, too.

Trump can apply pressure to Erdogan, and he's not doing that.

There are no right moves in the ME. Hoping this leads to more base closures over there.

[old salt]

Trump can apply pressure to Erdogan, and he's not doing that.

Trump just got blindsided by Erdogan.
Our military, diplomats & IC thought we had an agreement with the Turks that was working.
We still don't know what the Turks will do & if the SDF will resist.
Trump has limited options & leverage over Erdogan.
We need Turkey as an ally more than they need us.
It's their southern border, not ours.

[a fan]

Be patient. I hear ya. Thanks. Let's hope this works out for our allies.

[DocBarrister]

Trump can apply pressure to Erdogan, and he's not doing that.

Trump just got blindsided by Erdogan.
Our military, diplomats & IC thought we had an agreement with the Turks that was working.
We still don't know what the Turks will do & if the SDF will resist.
Trump has limited options & leverage over Erdogan.
We need Turkey as an ally more than they need us.
It's their southern border, not ours.

That is a truly ridiculous assertion. Your efforts to defend Trump have really become repugnant.

I’m no fan of US troops in Syria, but we are there and the United States made promises to the Syrian Kurdish militias. They were on the frontlines against ISIS in Syria and hold over 10,000 ISIS fighters in camps that they control (who will escape if Erdogan, who is thought to have provided illicit support to ISIS, massacres the Kurds). Many thousands of Kurds died fighting ISIS at the insistence of the United States.

And now we’re simply going to abandon them and let Erdogan slaughter them. All because Trump impulsively decided to leave without performing any of the necessary diplomatic and military groundwork to depart in an organized manner.

Should note that this move serves Erdogan (despite Trump’s “threat” against Turkey after Republican members of Congress complained). By the way, Trump has his name on two towers in Istanbul, which have “earned” Trump millions.

It also serves Putin and his ally, Iran. Just another indication that Trump is an agent of Russia, which has largely financed the Trump Organization.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/07/middle ... 9999999999

America’s allies all over the world are noting Trump’s betrayal of the Syrian Kurds. Who’s going to trust us now after Trump gave up the Kurds for slaughter?

DocBarrister

[old salt]

Trump can apply pressure to Erdogan, and he's not doing that.

Trump just got blindsided by Erdogan.
Our military, diplomats & IC thought we had an agreement with the Turks that was working.
We still don't know what the Turks will do & if the SDF will resist.
Trump has limited options & leverage over Erdogan.
We need Turkey as an ally more than they need us.
It's their southern border, not ours.

That is a truly ridiculous assertion. Your efforts to defend Trump have really become repugnant.

I’m no fan of US troops in Syria, but we are there and the United States made promises to the Syrian Kurdish militias. They were on the frontlines against ISIS in Syria and hold over 10,000 ISIS fighters in camps that they control (who will escape if Erdogan, who is thought to have provided illicit support to ISIS, massacres the Kurds). Many thousands of Kurds died fighting ISIS at the insistence of the United States.

And now we’re simply going to abandon them and let Erdogan slaughter them. All because Trump impulsively decided to leave without performing any of the necessary diplomatic and military groundwork to depart in an organized manner.

Should note that this move serves Erdogan (despite Trump’s “threat” against Turkey after Republican members of Congress complained). By the way, Trump has his name on two towers in Istanbul, which have “earned” Trump millions.

It also serves Putin and his ally, Iran. Just another indication that Trump is an agent of Russia, which has largely financed the Trump Organization.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/07/middle ... 9999999999

America’s allies all over the world are noting Trump’s betrayal of the Syrian Kurds. Who’s going to trust us now after Trump gave up the Kurds for slaughter?

DocBarrister

.. ...you're a few hours behind the news cycle Doc. Read the reporting in POLITICO about what really transpired.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/0 ... ers-037958
This wasn't Trump's initiative. He was prepared to continue the joint patrols.
Erdogan turned over the table.

Regarding allies -- Turkey is our longstanding NATO ally, by treaty. The Syrian SDF/YPG Kurds are our proxy allies in the fight against IS. We've never encouraged the Kurds to seek independence. To the contrary, we've tried to get them to stop attacking Turkey & agitating for an independent Kurdistan (which would annex a big chunk of Turkey). We used to designate the PKK as terrorists because of their terrorist attacks on our NATO ally Turkey. You got that yet ?

We haven't pulled our forces from Syria. They remain in NE Syria. We withdrew 50 Army Rangers who were hostages on trip wire joint patrol duty in a 20 mi wide border safe zone. Turkey is now on the hook for fighting ISIS, holding captive thousands of IS fighters & their families, & resettling over 2 million Syrian refugees now in Turkey.

This will give our NATO ally Turkey military control of a buffer zone along the entire length of Syria's N border & block that route between Iran & Lebanon. This is hardly in Russia's or Iran's interest. The Turks will probably try to resettle Syrian Arab refugees in the Arab portions of the border zone, but they will be challenged to occupy the entire border safe zone, let alone retake major portions of NE Syria, including the urban centers listed in your CNN scary story piece.

The Syrian Kurds lived peacefully for decades in relative autonomy in NE Syria under Assad's regime.
That ended when IS invaded & Syria came apart in civil war. The Syrian Kurds now need to renew their accommodation with Assad's Syrian govt in distant Damascus. They are in a relatively strong position to do just that & have likely been negotiating to do so.

Turkey is vital as an ally if NATO is to endure. Our bases at Incirlik (& elsewhere in Turkey) are critical so long as we maintain a presence in the E Med & ME. The Kurds are pragmatic survivors. They'll get back in bed with Assad.

This is really funny Doc. You & Lindsey Graham make for strange bedfellows.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syri ... SKBN1WM1IF

For the SDF alliance, in which the Syrian Kurdish YPG militia is the dominant force, much will depend on whether the United States continues to keep forces in other parts of the northeast and east. A full U.S. withdrawal would expose the area to the risk of more Turkish advances, an Islamic State revival, or attempts by Iranian- and Russian-backed government forces to gain ground.

Confronted by the prospect of U.S. withdrawal last year, the Kurds beat a path to Damascus for talks over allowing the Syrian government and its ally Russia to deploy at the border.

The talks made no progress, but such negotiations could be an option again in the event of a wider U.S. withdrawal.

While the territory in question is already outside Syrian government control, a Turkish incursion would mean the area switching from a non-hostile force - the SDF - to Turkey and rebels that have sought to topple Assad.

Damascus has long viewed Turkey as an occupying power with designs on northern Syria. It has also at times suggested a willingness to strike a deal with the Kurds, though their last negotiations got nowhere.

[a fan]

This is really funny Doc. You & Lindsey Graham make for strange bedfellows.

Welcome to partisan America.

As a lib, you have to throw one helluva curveball to get mad that Trump is pulling troops out of Syria......

[DocBarrister]

This is really funny Doc. You & Lindsey Graham make for strange bedfellows.

Welcome to partisan America.

As a lib, you have to throw one helluva curveball to get mad that Trump is pulling troops out of Syria......

Liberals don’t screw allies.

The consequences are likely to be the same as Mr. Trump was warned of before. Betrayed by the United States and forced to fight a potentially bloody conflict with Turkey, the Kurdish-led forces could quickly abandon any further effort to control the Islamic State. They might well set free the tens of thousands of former militants and family members held in SDF-controlled camps. The 1,000 U.S. troops in Syria could be forced to withdraw entirely, which would be a major victory for Russia and open the way for Iran to entrench its forces along Israel’s northern border. U.S. allies around the world meanwhile will have reason to question whether they should cooperate with a government that so casually abandons military partners.

The White House statement announcing Mr. Trump’s decision and the presidential tweets that followed it reflected a stunning ignorance of the situation on the ground. Mr. Trump claimed that the invading Turkish forces would take care of the thousands of imprisoned Islamic State militants. But the camps that hold them are outside the area Mr. Erdogan plans to seize — and, in any case, the Turkish army “has neither the intent, desire, nor capacity” to take on that job, as the former U.S. envoy to the region, Brett McGurk, tweeted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html


DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

Trump can apply pressure to Erdogan, and he's not doing that.

Trump just got blindsided by Erdogan.
Our military, diplomats & IC thought we had an agreement with the Turks that was working.
We still don't know what the Turks will do & if the SDF will resist.
Trump has limited options & leverage over Erdogan.
We need Turkey as an ally more than they need us.
It's their southern border, not ours.

That is a truly ridiculous assertion. Your efforts to defend Trump have really become repugnant.

I’m no fan of US troops in Syria, but we are there and the United States made promises to the Syrian Kurdish militias. They were on the frontlines against ISIS in Syria and hold over 10,000 ISIS fighters in camps that they control (who will escape if Erdogan, who is thought to have provided illicit support to ISIS, massacres the Kurds). Many thousands of Kurds died fighting ISIS at the insistence of the United States.

And now we’re simply going to abandon them and let Erdogan slaughter them. All because Trump impulsively decided to leave without performing any of the necessary diplomatic and military groundwork to depart in an organized manner.

Should note that this move serves Erdogan (despite Trump’s “threat” against Turkey after Republican members of Congress complained). By the way, Trump has his name on two towers in Istanbul, which have “earned” Trump millions.

It also serves Putin and his ally, Iran. Just another indication that Trump is an agent of Russia, which has largely financed the Trump Organization.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/07/middle ... 9999999999

America’s allies all over the world are noting Trump’s betrayal of the Syrian Kurds. Who’s going to trust us now after Trump gave up the Kurds for slaughter?

DocBarrister

.. ...you're a few hours behind the news cycle Doc. Read the reporting in POLITICO about what really transpired.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/0 ... ers-037958
This wasn't Trump's initiative. He was prepared to continue the joint patrols.
Erdogan turned over the table.

Regarding allies -- Turkey is our longstanding NATO ally, by treaty. The Syrian SDF/YPG Kurds are our proxy allies in the fight against IS. We've never encouraged the Kurds to seek independence. To the contrary, we've tried to get them to stop attacking Turkey & agitating for an independent Kurdistan (which would annex a big chunk of Turkey). We used to designate the PKK as terrorists because of their terrorist attacks on our NATO ally Turkey. You got that yet ?

We haven't pulled our forces from Syria. They remain in NE Syria. We withdrew 50 Army Rangers who were hostages on trip wire joint patrol duty in a 20 mi wide border safe zone. Turkey is now on the hook for fighting ISIS, holding captive thousands of IS fighters & their families, & resettling over 2 million Syrian refugees now in Turkey.

This will give our NATO ally Turkey military control of a buffer zone along the entire length of Syria's N border & block that route between Iran & Lebanon. This is hardly in Russia's or Iran's interest. The Turks will probably try to resettle Syrian Arab refugees in the Arab portions of the border zone, but they will be challenged to occupy the entire border safe zone, let alone retake major portions of NE Syria, including the urban centers listed in your CNN scary story piece.

The Syrian Kurds lived peacefully for decades in relative autonomy in NE Syria under Assad's regime.
That ended when IS invaded & Syria came apart in civil war. The Syrian Kurds now need to renew their accommodation with Assad's Syrian govt in distant Damascus. They are in a relatively strong position to do just that & have likely been negotiating to do so.

Turkey is vital as an ally if NATO is to endure. Our bases at Incirlik (& elsewhere in Turkey) are critical so long as we maintain a presence in the E Med & ME. The Kurds are pragmatic survivors. They'll get back in bed with Assad.

This is really funny Doc. You & Lindsey Graham make for strange bedfellows.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syri ... SKBN1WM1IF

For the SDF alliance, in which the Syrian Kurdish YPG militia is the dominant force, much will depend on whether the United States continues to keep forces in other parts of the northeast and east. A full U.S. withdrawal would expose the area to the risk of more Turkish advances, an Islamic State revival, or attempts by Iranian- and Russian-backed government forces to gain ground.

Confronted by the prospect of U.S. withdrawal last year, the Kurds beat a path to Damascus for talks over allowing the Syrian government and its ally Russia to deploy at the border.

The talks made no progress, but such negotiations could be an option again in the event of a wider U.S. withdrawal.

While the territory in question is already outside Syrian government control, a Turkish incursion would mean the area switching from a non-hostile force - the SDF - to Turkey and rebels that have sought to topple Assad.

Damascus has long viewed Turkey as an occupying power with designs on northern Syria. It has also at times suggested a willingness to strike a deal with the Kurds, though their last negotiations got nowhere.

Please, you really think Erdogan told Trump he is moving forward with an incursion and then Trump simply folded and decided to withdraw?

First, if that is the case, Trump has no business being Commander in Chief. If he folds that easily, then what ally would ever trust him?

Turkey wouldn’t move forward with an incursion that could jeopardize U.S. troops unless Trump gave his consent to do so.

As the article states, Trump went Rogue. His decision to withdraw US troops benefits both Russia and Turkey. Putin will be pleased to see US forces leave Syria. Turkey gets their shot at wiping out Kurds.

Oh ... and this helps Russia and Turkey build their burgeoning alliance.

Russia is completing the TurkStream pipeline to Turkey, which will be a major energy source for Turkey. https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/mark ... -by-dec-31

In addition, Turkey basically traded the US F-35 program for Russian missile systems (the S400 and S500). https://m.dw.com/en/us-removes-turkey-f ... a-49625337

You’re the one behind on the news. Russia is steadily drawing a NATO ally, Turkey, into its orbit. What better way to cement that relationship than by working together in Syria? And who just facilitated an even closer relationship between Russia and Turkey ... yes, Donald Trump.

You think that’s just a coincidence?

The Trump Organization is financially dependent on laundered Russian money, and Trump has significant commercial interests in Turkey. Enough to explain why Trump went Rogue against the Pentagon and his national security advisers? You bet.

Trump sold out US national security and US allies to bolster his personal financial interests. That’s been a consistent pattern throughout his presidency.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

This is really funny Doc. You & Lindsey Graham make for strange bedfellows.

Welcome to partisan America.

As a lib, you have to throw one helluva curveball to get mad that Trump is pulling troops out of Syria......

Liberals don’t screw allies.

The consequences are likely to be the same as Mr. Trump was warned of before. Betrayed by the United States and forced to fight a potentially bloody conflict with Turkey, the Kurdish-led forces could quickly abandon any further effort to control the Islamic State. They might well set free the tens of thousands of former militants and family members held in SDF-controlled camps. The 1,000 U.S. troops in Syria could be forced to withdraw entirely, which would be a major victory for Russia and open the way for Iran to entrench its forces along Israel’s northern border. U.S. allies around the world meanwhile will have reason to question whether they should cooperate with a government that so casually abandons military partners.

The White House statement announcing Mr. Trump’s decision and the presidential tweets that followed it reflected a stunning ignorance of the situation on the ground. Mr. Trump claimed that the invading Turkish forces would take care of the thousands of imprisoned Islamic State militants. But the camps that hold them are outside the area Mr. Erdogan plans to seize — and, in any case, the Turkish army “has neither the intent, desire, nor capacity” to take on that job, as the former U.S. envoy to the region, Brett McGurk, tweeted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html

DocBarrister

I eagerly await Speaker Pelosi introducing an AUMF authorizing an open ended deployment of US forces to Syria to protect our Kurdish allies & to engage Turkish, Syrian. Iranian & Russian forces if necessary.

[DocBarrister]

This is really funny Doc. You & Lindsey Graham make for strange bedfellows.

Welcome to partisan America.

As a lib, you have to throw one helluva curveball to get mad that Trump is pulling troops out of Syria......

Liberals don’t screw allies.

The consequences are likely to be the same as Mr. Trump was warned of before. Betrayed by the United States and forced to fight a potentially bloody conflict with Turkey, the Kurdish-led forces could quickly abandon any further effort to control the Islamic State. They might well set free the tens of thousands of former militants and family members held in SDF-controlled camps. The 1,000 U.S. troops in Syria could be forced to withdraw entirely, which would be a major victory for Russia and open the way for Iran to entrench its forces along Israel’s northern border. U.S. allies around the world meanwhile will have reason to question whether they should cooperate with a government that so casually abandons military partners.

The White House statement announcing Mr. Trump’s decision and the presidential tweets that followed it reflected a stunning ignorance of the situation on the ground. Mr. Trump claimed that the invading Turkish forces would take care of the thousands of imprisoned Islamic State militants. But the camps that hold them are outside the area Mr. Erdogan plans to seize — and, in any case, the Turkish army “has neither the intent, desire, nor capacity” to take on that job, as the former U.S. envoy to the region, Brett McGurk, tweeted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html

DocBarrister

I eagerly await Speaker Pelosi introducing an AUMF authorizing an open ended deployment of US forces to Syria to protect our Kurdish allies & to engage Turkish, Syrian. Iranian & Russian forces if necessary.

She won’t have to, the Republicans will beat her to it.

Republican sycophants in Congress fear Trump, but even they understand the perils of betraying a crucial ally and fostering a growing alliance between Russia and Turkey.

You say Turkey is a vital NATO ally? Trump is handing Turkey on a platter to Vladimir Putin.

Is it any wonder that even cowards like Lindsey Graham and Moscow Mitch are opposing this? This goes too far even for those spineless turds.

DocBarrister

[Trinity]

Gen @mccaffreyr3 on Turkey:

The prez has made a decision directly harming US NATSEC.
He thinks [Erdogan] is important 2his private business interests.
His language “in my infinite wisdom”, bizarre, unsettling.

I hope the General has sufficiently served to opine on this subject.

[foreverlax]

f McGurk, Mattis or anyone else told the Kurds to expect anything other than this from Trump, that's on them.

Trump shot off his big mouth how he is giving his execs decision making authority. When does the buck actually stop at his desk. Never his fault, don't listen to what he says. Trump's infinite wisdom.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Recall that I'm happy that we're leaving Syria. What worries me is that Trump isn't telling Erdogan to stay out of Syria. Seems like a bad idea to let them in there without us around.

For critics who say that Trump got rolled -- it should be obvious by now that we have little influence & leverage over Erdogan.

Our Russian apologists should be cheering... mirrored talking points.....

...& what in that RT analysis do you dispute ?

Erdogan sees Trump weak & under attack at home. He's seizing the opportunity to end the "limbo".
He knows the US can't protect our troops in Syria & won't risk conflict with Turkey & blow up NATO over the SDF(PKK).
What are we gonna do, withold Turkey's F-35s ?

That the USA military is no more than a door stop.... you disagree?

100 light infantry troops doing joint patrols aren't even a speed bump.
Their air support is housed on a Turkish Air Base.
Sure thing. Let's jump ugly with the Turks.

You didn’t answer the question.

[Trinity]

Lt. Gen. Mike Nagata (ret.) goes on record -- he was the first commander assigned to train up Syrians to fight ISIS for themselves -- saying Trump's decision helps Russia and Iran: “There is not enough recognition that this could go horribly wrong in so many ways.”

[Typical Lax Dad]

Lt. Gen. Mike Nagata (ret.) goes on record -- he was the first commander assigned to train up Syrians to fight ISIS for themselves -- saying Trump's decision helps Russia and Iran: “There is not enough recognition that this could go horribly wrong in so many ways.”

Who cares...the USA’s military capacity is no more than a door stop.

[jhu72]

Largely the US forces have not moved. About 50 guys have pulled off the border with Turkey, the rest are staying in place. Nothing has gone through the chain of command. I suspect Trump is going to declare his victory and decide to leave things alone.

Heard the funniest thing this morning. Who knew that the US military is a religion? Bret McGurk referred to uniforms as "sacred cloth".

[foreverlax]

Trump's fed up with the EUros not taking back their ISIS citizens & families.

Am hearing this a lot from Trump...he implies that the lions share of these fighters came from the EU and they are doing nothing.

Just not accurate. Russia has more nationals fighting then the top 5 of the EU combined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_ ... _and_Syria

[RedFromMI]

Top Military Officers Unload on Trump

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... mp/598360/

Author Mark Bowden:

Military officers are sworn to serve whomever voters send to the White House. Cognizant of the special authority they hold, high-level officers epitomize respect for the chain of command, and are extremely reticent about criticizing their civilian overseers. That those I spoke with made an exception in Trump’s case is telling, and much of what they told me is deeply disturbing. In 20 years of writing about the military, I have never heard officers in high positions express such alarm about a president. Trump’s pronouncements and orders have already risked catastrophic and unnecessary wars in the Middle East and Asia, and have created severe problems for field commanders engaged in combat operations. Frequently caught unawares by Trump’s statements, senior military officers have scrambled, in their aftermath, to steer the country away from tragedy. How many times can they successfully do that before faltering?

(my bolding)

Bowden is the author of "Black Hawk Down"...

Five basic characterizations of Trump:

1. He disdains experience
2. He trusts only his own instincts
3. He resists coherent strategy
4. "He is reflexively contrary"
5. He has a simplistic and antiquated notion of soldiering

Great (and scary) read...

[Trinity]

Trump has also invited Erdogan to the White House in November. The guy nobody can control...