2020 Elections - Trump FIRED

[a fan]

Not one person on this earth is saying we take another countries intel as gospel and the sole evidence of a crime/shady dealings...only you are doing that.

Right. How can you corroborate anything they give us? You can't.

If you could, you'd simply investigate on US Soil, and use that evidence.

And again, you haven't explained why Trump didn't investigate Biden at any time in 2017 or 2018. After all, this is a big deal, right?

[ggait]

With a President Warren... that would mean cleared for takeoff. As much as I loath a FLP agenda the thought of 4 more years of this nonsense almost makes it palatable... ALMOST.

This is not reality though.

Consensus forecast for the Senate as of today (Sabato Crystal Ball) is 51R, 46D and three toss ups (CO, AZ, NC). Gardner in Colorado is toast, but he's going to lose to that crazy fire-breathing Bolshevik John Hickenlooper -- yikes!!! AZ and NC are more likely to be GOP holds. So even with a D tsunami, it is a huge stretch to get to 51D.

And if that happened, so what? You still need 60 votes to do anything, other than SCOTUS nominees. And there, all you'd likely get is to re-up RBG and Breyer. So the current conservative SCOTUS majority stays intact.

So even if Karl Marx himself gets elected president, we're not getting Medicare for all and free college. Come on, we all know this. I'd strongly prefer a centrist to Lizzie or Bernie. But I'd vote for a ham sandwich over Trump. Because in no real world scenario are we going Moscow 1917. I'm more at risk of being hit by an asteroid. And if somehow Comrade Lizzie got it going, in two years the voters (including me and many others on these boards) would flip the House back to GOP in 2022.

So there's literally no reason to vote for Trump unless you like him and want more of his reality show. We'll have divided government, regardless of who wins the WH. We all can safely pick divided govt without the shirt show, and (as Sen. Bennet wisely said) we can go back to raising our kids and spending time with our spouses.

P.S. Go look up Dwight Eisenhower's GOP platform from the 1956 election if you really want to see what a a crazy outbreak of American socialism looks like. High tax rates! Infrastructure (inter-state highway system)! Pro-union! Anti military/industrial complex! Support for the social security and other New Deal social programs! Amazing we survived 8 years from that Commie Ike....

[cradleandshoot]

With a President Warren... that would mean cleared for takeoff. As much as I loath a FLP agenda the thought of 4 more years of this nonsense almost makes it palatable... ALMOST.

This is not reality though.

Consensus forecast for the Senate as of today (Sabato Crystal Ball) is 51R, 46D and three toss ups (CO, AZ, NC). Gardner in Colorado is toast, but he's going to lose to that crazy fire-breathing Bolshevik John Hickenlooper -- yikes!!! AZ and NC are more likely to be GOP holds. So even with a D tsunami, it is a huge stretch to get to 51D.

And if that happened, so what? You still need 60 votes to do anything, other than SCOTUS nominees. And there, all you'd likely get is to re-up RBG and Breyer. So the current conservative SCOTUS majority stays intact.

So even if Karl Marx himself gets elected president, we're not getting Medicare for all and free college. Come on, we all know this. I'd strongly prefer a centrist to Lizzie or Bernie. But I'd vote for a ham sandwich over Trump. Because in no real world scenario are we going Moscow 1917. I'm more at risk of being hit by an asteroid. And if somehow Comrade Lizzie got it going, in two years the voters (including me and many others on these boards) would flip the House back to GOP in 2022.

So there's literally no reason to vote for Trump unless you like him and want more of his reality show. We'll have divided government, regardless of who wins the WH. We all can safely pick divided govt without the shirt show, and (as Sen. Bennet wisely said) we can go back to raising our kids and spending time with our spouses.

P.S. Go look up Dwight Eisenhower's GOP platform from the 1956 election if you really want to see what a a crazy outbreak of American socialism looks like. High tax rates! Infrastructure (inter-state highway system)! Pro-union! Anti military/industrial complex! Support for the social security and other New Deal social programs! Amazing we survived 8 years from that Commie Ike....

I think it is 100% doable for the Dems to make this happen. It is simply a matter of striking while the iron is hot. The momentum could be the driving force. IMO what the Dems learned from the ACA debacle is that you have to go big or stay home. What should help them in this endeavor is rank and file Republicans are in full retreat. I dont think the Republicans are up to the fight right now. The fact that this plan is very popular with many Americans. They may not be able to pull it off but I'm damn sure they will never just give it up.

[a fan]

That is the era that all these supposed socialism haters want to return to... the Power of FoxNation in full view that they think that was the era of minimal taxation.

[jhu72]

C&S -- Don't overthink it. If you are in a swing state, you just vote for the Dem if you want to be rid of Trump. And any of them will be more just fine and massively better than Trump. If not in a swing state, it is fine to protest vote for a third party.

You still need House maj, 60 Senate votes and the Prez to get anything done. While Bernie may dream of Medicare for all, free college, etc. we all know that's never gonna happen in the next 25 years.

Obama had two years with 60 Senate votes and he barely barely got Obamacare passed. And Obamacare is way more moderate than what the Bern talks about. And Obamacare cost Obama his governing majorities and then he got six years of divided govt. Same thing would happen with any Dem president.

You'd get a normal respectable person in the WH (which we currently lack). And you'd get nothing much done (what we currently have) or you'd get maybe a few centrist grand bargains on debt/taxes, immigration or other issues. You'd basically get back to 2013, when things were pretty functional and the GOP (even Hannity!!) acted like normal partisans rather than Trumpsters.

And history shows that our fiscal situation always/only improves when there is divided govt headed by a Dem president -- Clinton/Gingrich, Obama/Boehner/McConnell.

It is pretty simple actually. Just vote for whatever Dem nominee there is. And feel free to vote GOP for Senate and Congress if you want. Although I personally think the GOP needs/deserves to be sent to the time out chair for ever letting the Very Stable Genius take over their party.

Well thought out. I largely agree. The fear of a socialist takeover makes me laugh.

I would only disagree with your statement that the republicans might need to pay a penalty. That is a most definite - they need to pay a penalty for their lack of good citizenship - 40+ years of it (pandering to the worst elements in society just to win elections) leading up to Trump. You also have the fact that once Orange Duce is gone, the party of Trump remains. Many of these people are not harmless. The party of reasonable republicanism no longer exists.

I think there are a lot of people scared of a socialist takeover. Mark Zuckerberg is about as progressive as they come. When he references Liz Warren as an "existential threat to Facebook" I think something's cooking in the kettle

And that fear is irrational, As ggait points out, this kind of change takes time it moves slow and progress is jerky.

Zberg is not afraid of socialism - he is afraid of anti-trust regulation.

If you run the whole show on you can move as fast as you please. IMO there is a very good chance the Dems win the WH and also flip the Senate. With a President Warren... that would mean cleared for takeoff. As much as I loath a FLP agenda the thought of 4 more years of this nonsense almost makes it palatable... ALMOST.

You can seeing this coming from a mile away -

President Warren moves congressional approved monies to a fulfill a campaign promise

President Warren issues a National Emergency regarding global warming.

President Warren ask China for help investigating Trump

You can hear the FRP's exploding....

As Doctor 72 frequently says... the wheels on the bus go round and round...

I have a copyright on that, you will be hearing from my lawyer.

[ggait]

I think this is a different Democrat machine. IMO the consensus of Democrat leadership is to make as hard a left turn as possible and hope the ship does not turn over. These folks want what they want and they want it ASAP. If AOC says it should happen... it will and must be made to happen.

Again, this is just not reality.

AOC won a district that is +29% D and she defeated a safe incumbent D. BFD.

Pelosi (Commie Lib from San Francisco!!) isn't Speaker because of AOC. She's Speaker because centrist Dems defeated Rs in places like UT, OK, GA and Orange County CA. The folks in the suburbs are far from Bolsheviks. They're not backing AOC -- they're just tired of the reality show.

Which is why Pelosi and Schumer (Commie Lib from NYC!!) are backing Biden.

The revolution is not coming C&S. You only have to vote for Trump if you like/want Trump.

[cradleandshoot]

C&S -- Don't overthink it. If you are in a swing state, you just vote for the Dem if you want to be rid of Trump. And any of them will be more just fine and massively better than Trump. If not in a swing state, it is fine to protest vote for a third party.

You still need House maj, 60 Senate votes and the Prez to get anything done. While Bernie may dream of Medicare for all, free college, etc. we all know that's never gonna happen in the next 25 years.

Obama had two years with 60 Senate votes and he barely barely got Obamacare passed. And Obamacare is way more moderate than what the Bern talks about. And Obamacare cost Obama his governing majorities and then he got six years of divided govt. Same thing would happen with any Dem president.

You'd get a normal respectable person in the WH (which we currently lack). And you'd get nothing much done (what we currently have) or you'd get maybe a few centrist grand bargains on debt/taxes, immigration or other issues. You'd basically get back to 2013, when things were pretty functional and the GOP (even Hannity!!) acted like normal partisans rather than Trumpsters.

And history shows that our fiscal situation always/only improves when there is divided govt headed by a Dem president -- Clinton/Gingrich, Obama/Boehner/McConnell.

It is pretty simple actually. Just vote for whatever Dem nominee there is. And feel free to vote GOP for Senate and Congress if you want. Although I personally think the GOP needs/deserves to be sent to the time out chair for ever letting the Very Stable Genius take over their party.

Well thought out. I largely agree. The fear of a socialist takeover makes me laugh.

I would only disagree with your statement that the republicans might need to pay a penalty. That is a most definite - they need to pay a penalty for their lack of good citizenship - 40+ years of it (pandering to the worst elements in society just to win elections) leading up to Trump. You also have the fact that once Orange Duce is gone, the party of Trump remains. Many of these people are not harmless. The party of reasonable republicanism no longer exists.

I think there are a lot of people scared of a socialist takeover. Mark Zuckerberg is about as progressive as they come. When he references Liz Warren as an "existential threat to Facebook" I think something's cooking in the kettle

And that fear is irrational, As ggait points out, this kind of change takes time it moves slow and progress is jerky.

Zberg is not afraid of socialism - he is afraid of anti-trust regulation.

If you run the whole show on you can move as fast as you please. IMO there is a very good chance the Dems win the WH and also flip the Senate. With a President Warren... that would mean cleared for takeoff. As much as I loath a FLP agenda the thought of 4 more years of this nonsense almost makes it palatable... ALMOST.

You can seeing this coming from a mile away -

President Warren moves congressional approved monies to a fulfill a campaign promise

President Warren issues a National Emergency regarding global warming.

President Warren ask China for help investigating Trump

You can hear the FRP's exploding....

As Doctor 72 frequently says... the wheels on the bus go round and round...

I have a copyright on that, you will be hearing from my lawyer.

[old salt]

This article shines a very bright light on what is going on. https://reason.com/2019/10/03/let-us-no ... ssion=true

Because Trump is cartoonishly simple, he is revealing of how things actually work; we can see in him the moves and machinations that more sophisticated and suave operators are able to mask. The real test for the country is whether we will use this moment to admit we've been living all sorts of lies that we choose to obscure with soaring political rhetoric and false politeness. Whether Trump is removed by the Senate, fails to be reelected in 2020, or serves a second term, we need to restructure the size, scope, and spending of government so the political class isn't able to wield so much power.

Trump is a spotlight on all that is wrong with our government. He is a sacrifice to be thrown in the volcano so that we can actually see that the emperor has no freaking clothes - and by emperor I mean our political system as it currently operates.

That is great analysis & why I don't personally get in high dudgeon over everything Trump does.

Trump is the inevitable mutant life form which our culture & self-serving establishment has produced.

I welcome the change & disruption.

[a fan]

Well, yes. We get the politicians we ask for.

Remember how they waved through the IRS scandal when Obama was President?

Be they'd wish they didn't do that now that Trump's appointee is trying to quash IRS audits. Because guess what? They don't get to complain now.

So yep, all this cheering on Trump's behavior will bleed right through to the next POTUS. And for our next President? Is there ANYTHING he or she won't be allowed to do, because we cheered it on when Trump did it?

Meanwhile, Rome burns. No deal with China, Iran, N Korea. EU Trade War is getting worse. No repeal and replace. No plans to fix infrastructure or education. No immigration reform. 3 years in, nothing major has been accomplished.

But the great news is, we took care of the 1%ers woes with that massive tax cut. So really, we're all set.

[old salt]

Can you answer this for us with confidence? Or is a response "who cares" satisfactory?

And btw, Ukraine is corrupt, is it not?

So no matter what "evidence" they give.....whether it "clears' Biden, or makes him guilty (guilty of what?)..... you going to believe it?

I'm not. This is pointless political nonsense.

Understand that you and your fellow Trump fans have now green lit any and all investigations into political rivals, and you have told politicians "go right ahead and work with foreign governments to secure your position of power, and to stick it to your enemies".

You trust our leaders an awful lot more than I do.

Ukraine is corrupt, ...until they're not.
Zelensky was an unlikely winner, elected on a wave of anti-corruption sentiment.
Give him a chance before you declare him corrupt.
He'll be under great scrutiny, given the investment we made in military aid & (now) the political stakes.

[a fan]

Give him a chance before you declare him corrupt.

Yes. It takes time to clean up an entire country.

And unless Z is going to go around the country with a magnifying glass looking for clues, it doesn't matter if he's corrupt or not when it comes to "investigating" the Bidens. You can't trust what comes out of that country in terms of "evidence". Heck, it's a coinflip as to whether or not Putin fabricates "evidence" on Bidnen, whether good or ill.

Further, why investigate now, and not two years ago? We all know why. It's pointless, and a waste of time.

Want to see the case "solved"? Wait five minutes after Biden drops out of the race.

[old salt]

Give him a chance before you declare him corrupt.

Yes. It takes time to clean up an entire country.

And unless Z is going to go around the country with a magnifying glass looking for clues, it doesn't matter if he's corrupt or not when it comes to "investigating" the Bidens. You can't trust what comes out of that country in terms of "evidence". Heck, it's a coinflip as to whether or not Putin fabricates "evidence" on Bidnen, whether good or ill.

Further, why investigate now, and not two years ago? We all know why. It's pointless, and a waste of time.

Want to see the case "solved"? Wait five minutes after Biden drops out of the race.

I disagree. Biden is still the front runner to be our next President.
So long as he is a viable candidate we need to see if there's any fire beneath the smoke.
Just like we needed to investigate Trump-Russia.

[a fan]

We can't find out. That's my point.

I'm not saying we shouldn't investigate, go right ahead. I'm just saying, it's pointless. You can't trust what you turn up.

Again, it's a coinflip as to whether or not Putin works up "evidence".

[old salt]

We can't find out. That's my point.

I'm not saying we shouldn't investigate, go right ahead. I'm just saying, it's pointless. You can't trust what you turn up.

Again, it's a coinflip as to whether or not Putin works up "evidence".

If anything comes out of Ukraine, you think it won't be microscopically examined ?

The MSM fact checkers will be forced to examine it for credibility.

[foreverlax]

We can't find out. That's my point.

I'm not saying we shouldn't investigate, go right ahead. I'm just saying, it's pointless. You can't trust what you turn up.

Again, it's a coinflip as to whether or not Putin works up "evidence".

If anything comes out of Ukraine, you think it won't be microscopically examined ?

The MSM fact checkers will be forced to examine it for credibility.

Good one!! Facts matter to everyone but Trump...unless the truth helps him.

[cradleandshoot]

I think this is a different Democrat machine. IMO the consensus of Democrat leadership is to make as hard a left turn as possible and hope the ship does not turn over. These folks want what they want and they want it ASAP. If AOC says it should happen... it will and must be made to happen.

Again, this is just not reality.

AOC won a district that is +29% D and she defeated a safe incumbent D. BFD.

Pelosi (Commie Lib from San Francisco!!) isn't Speaker because of AOC. She's Speaker because centrist Dems defeated Rs in places like UT, OK, GA and Orange County CA. The folks in the suburbs are far from Bolsheviks. They're not backing AOC -- they're just tired of the reality show.

Which is why Pelosi and Schumer (Commie Lib from NYC!!) are backing Biden.

The revolution is not coming C&S. You only have to vote for Trump if you like/want Trump.

It's not a revolution. I am only making my observation. As far as the hard core left wing progressives go... Nancy is a dead girl walkin. This is too important for these folks that now run the Democrat machine. They may very fail but I have no doubt they will leave no stone unturned to make this happen. Nancy Pelosi is a figurehead. She is still a very smart politician but she is not hard core radical enough. Speaking only for myself the only candidate I could be persuaded to vote for right now would be Biden. Even with all his faults he knows how to work the room and could be able to get both sides to work together. Too bad I think Joe may have been hurt too much to overcome. It will be interesting to see if the other candidates at the upcoming debates use this stuff against Joe.

[RedFromMI]

We can't find out. That's my point.

I'm not saying we shouldn't investigate, go right ahead. I'm just saying, it's pointless. You can't trust what you turn up.

Again, it's a coinflip as to whether or not Putin works up "evidence".

If anything comes out of Ukraine, you think it won't be microscopically examined ?

The MSM fact checkers will be forced to examine it for credibility.

Doesn't matter - all Trump wants to do is gaslight about this. Some sort of investigation is something he can point at (regardless if it actually finds anything) and essentially tell voters the other side is just as or more corrupt. Anything to peel off a few voters and send them to a third party, and maybe he can pull off what he did in 2016.

If he cannot get a significant number of Dems/Inds to either not vote, or vote for a third party he knows his own base is along for the ride.

Remember the way he won in WI, MI and PA included suppressing the AA vote by making them mad at Hillary, and having his "help" (Russians/others) pump up third party, specifically Jill Stein.

[old salt]

We can't find out. That's my point.

I'm not saying we shouldn't investigate, go right ahead. I'm just saying, it's pointless. You can't trust what you turn up.

Again, it's a coinflip as to whether or not Putin works up "evidence".

If anything comes out of Ukraine, you think it won't be microscopically examined ?

The MSM fact checkers will be forced to examine it for credibility.

Doesn't matter - all Trump wants to do is gaslight about this. Some sort of investigation is something he can point at (regardless if it actually finds anything) and essentially tell voters the other side is just as or more corrupt. Anything to peel off a few voters and send them to a third party, and maybe he can pull off what he did in 2016.

If he cannot get a significant number of Dems/Inds to either not vote, or vote for a third party he knows his own base is along for the ride.

Remember the way he won in WI, MI and PA included suppressing the AA vote by making them mad at Hillary, and having his "help" (Russians/others) pump up third party, specifically Jill Stein.

Gaslighting ? The MSM was happy to give Biden a free ride re. his blatant conflicts of interest. Trump's calling their bluff.

[a fan]

Blatant conflicts of interest?

You can’t be serious. You and Trumpland have not only told your fellow Americans that that’s ok—you have told the rest of us that we are insane for thinking it’s a problem.

The literal definition of gaslighting.

How about this: eliminate all of Trumps conflicts. Then you can chase after Hunter Biden.

Deal?

[jhu72]

I think this is a different Democrat machine. IMO the consensus of Democrat leadership is to make as hard a left turn as possible and hope the ship does not turn over. These folks want what they want and they want it ASAP. If AOC says it should happen... it will and must be made to happen.

Again, this is just not reality.

AOC won a district that is +29% D and she defeated a safe incumbent D. BFD.

Pelosi (Commie Lib from San Francisco!!) isn't Speaker because of AOC. She's Speaker because centrist Dems defeated Rs in places like UT, OK, GA and Orange County CA. The folks in the suburbs are far from Bolsheviks. They're not backing AOC -- they're just tired of the reality show.

Which is why Pelosi and Schumer (Commie Lib from NYC!!) are backing Biden.

The revolution is not coming C&S. You only have to vote for Trump if you like/want Trump.

It's not a revolution. I am only making my observation. As far as the hard core left wing progressives go... Nancy is a dead girl walkin. This is too important for these folks that now run the Democrat machine. They may very fail but I have no doubt they will leave no stone unturned to make this happen. Nancy Pelosi is a figurehead. She is still a very smart politician but she is not hard core radical enough. Speaking only for myself the only candidate I could be persuaded to vote for right now would be Biden. Even with all his faults he knows how to work the room and could be able to get both sides to work together. Too bad I think Joe may have been hurt too much to overcome. It will be interesting to see if the other candidates at the upcoming debates use this stuff against Joe.

I think the odds are good that Biden comes out of this looking pretty good if he is clean, which currently seems to be the case. It will backfire on Trump. The white blue collar working class has a much longer relationship with Joe than with Trump. I don't think they will just believe Trump over Joe. Facts will matter. The most recent polling shows that the number of people who are Trump supporters who believe Biden is crooked is only about 82%. 100% believe in Hillary's alien love child based on Trump's say so. The 18% who don't believe is about the size of the white blue collar working class cohort, ie., people who are purely economic Trump supporters, without white nationalist tendencies who thought they would give Trump a chance but aren't tied to him. Trump is rolling the dice with these people IMO.