Fair Pay to Play Act

[a fan]

i have a question. what exactly are the students being paid for? is it being a student-athlete, or an athlete? i know it's "identity" but really, behind that identity is the sport, and there'd be no intercollegiate sport without college.

in other words, if you accept that a... car dealer... is paying a "student-athlete", the moment you don't show up to class, you should be docked. like any other job. (this is a job now isnt it?)

No. They're not getting paid by the car dealer to attend class.

They're getting paid by the car dealer, yes? The car dealer decides the rules. Could be a year long deal. Could be a single commercial and the transaction is over.

The tuition is paid by the school. The school gets to decide the rules surrounding that.

The playing time, meetings, practices, code of conduct etc. is decided by the coach. The coach gets to decide the rules on that.

In short, it's complicated.

[QuakerSouth]

This is a bigger issue than anyone knows, and it is because the NCAA has let it get to this point. Why? Because too many people at the NCAA are making too much money and they don't want to give up their deals.

What about the person responsible for organizing and producing the "29th National New Years Day Bowl Extravaganza" presented by Fabulous Corp? That person works maybe 4,5,6 months out of the year, and pulls down $1.3 mil for the effort. Why? What are his costs of goods sold? The game! Labor? The players! All free.

The coaches with their phat contracts? Millions. And those coaches end up becoming high-priced gatekeepers by default.

Look up the $100k admin jobs Michigan added and you make your own decision as to how those jobs directly impact the generators of the revenue that pays for them.

The NCAA is trying to use Title IX to say that if the football and basketball players get paid, then the softball players need to get equally paid. Socialism. Football and basketball ALREADY pay for all the other sports at the colleges, now the schools will have to pay all the athletes equally if they pay any at all. The NCAA will do anything to maintain the status quo and their "deals."

But here is what I think could be the biggest, most team-undercutting issue that could do the most damage to teams. So the CA rule says that players can profit off their likenesses? Ok. Now the most visible positions with the most "popular" players get the attention. The endorsements. The car dealer advertisements. The video game royalties (or however that gets paid). What about the nose guard? Or the right tackle. Or the defensive end? Don't those guys start to get jealous? Its one thing to currently get all the tv interviews, newspaper and magazine articles, etc. It quite another when $$$ are now attached to exposure.

What about the basketball players? Will we have players hounding the coaches for more playing time? More face time? More opportunities to get numbers up, or to have more "posterize" dunks against weak teams? Whats that do for the 6th man? The bench players who practice everyday to make the first 5 better? The only "reward" goes to the "final output," not to any of the effort that enabled the final product to be as good---and as marketable---as it is?

This rule/law/whatever will breed discontent on teams. Bank on it.

As for the CA ruling...sounds like the CA schools will be able to allow their athletes to personally profit. Thats fine, I guess. That doesn't mean that the NCAA has to agree/allow it. That "activity" will be deemed a violation and the NCAA can put schools on probation and deem them ineligible for NCAA tournaments. Will the CA basketball schools like that? Football championship is not sponsored by NCAA, so they are already doing their own thing.

Its a mess.

The NCAA will not exist as we know it in 10 years. There is too much money in this stuff. The NCAA is taking care of their own and saying the players are getting their "free eduction." At 50 hours/week and potential injuries, there's nothing free about it in the revenue sports. I predict the Power 5 conferences will break off from the NCAA, or when the NCAA begs them to stay, they stay, but play by a new set of rules where just about anything goes. Why not? The Power 5 does NOT need the NCAA. The NCAA desperately needs the Power 5, however.

The NCAA will be an organizing body for the non-Power 5 schools/conferences and the smaller schools. 10 years. Book it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I believe the player will suffer in the long run.

Some will get paid more, some will get paid less.

And yes, we're bringing free market forces to bear. This might kill sports like lacrosse.

Or it might not. Who knows?

I believe the sport has to be a $10MM revenue sport at a school. I may have heard that on talk radio. This is aimed at Football and Basketball almost exclusively as well as probably UCONN Women’s Basketball. What you will see in the SEC conference is the Wild Wild West. Right now football falls out of the scope NCAA for revenue sharing but not enforcement. I can see the next step being the SEC pushing out the NCAA enforcement arm and then basically being a minor league developmental league for the NFL. Very few players move on to the NFL but I can see an 18 year old being perfectly happy with $15k a year to play football on a college campus without any incentive to go to class. I believe players should be compensated in some way out of college sports money. Free tuition for life along with a stipend while in school. Lifetime career placement assistance. Something that motivates the players to get a degree and pursue a professional career if pro sports aren’t an option. Being paid by Texas cattle and oilmen will be a problem.

[a fan]

Being paid by Texas cattle and oilmen will be a problem.

Yes. As I said, tons of unforeseen and unintended consequences.

I asked before: do we believe in the free market, or not?

To quote Simmie from the Lost Trophy: the NCAA is a cartel.

He's right. And that's unAmerican, is it not?


In case anyone didn't know, a cartel is defined as an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Being paid by Texas cattle and oilmen will be a problem.

Yes. As I said, tons of unforeseen and unintended consequences.

I asked before: do we believe in the free market, or not?

To quote Simmie from the Lost Trophy: the NCAA is a cartel.

He's right. And that's unAmerican, is it not?


In case anyone didn't know, a cartel is defined as an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition.

I don’t like the way the NCAA is structured and it is a cartel. A lot of things I don’t like about it. The NCAA should have done the right thing but now the organization will have to deal with the consequences. I actually saw Nick Saban say nobody is making money off of college football because after everything is paid for, there is no money left over....

[OCanada]

TLD. In theory unamerican; in reality not so much.

About 20 or so years ago MD had a 50 million deficit. Many schools ran sizable deficits. Some gave up FB, others sacrificed minor sports. Some did quite well thank you.

[Typical Lax Dad]

TLD. In theory unamerican; in reality not so much.

About 20 or so years ago MD had a 50 million deficit. Many schools ran sizable deficits. Some gave up FB, others sacrificed minor sports. Some did quite well thank you.

Our local University dropped D1 football about 20 years ago. I just could not believe Saban....I am going to look for the video. It was priceless. I believe everyone laughed.

[Farfromgeneva]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/02/many-fo ... -year.html

The NCAA is a SRO, don’t even need regulatory capture, they are the regulator. No one should be crying for this even if there are unintended consequences. Every rule, law, etc favors one constituency at the expense of another. It seems appropriate at this point, if not sooner, that the benefits should shift with whatever costs come. Smart, good operators will adapt and do well, sloppy, lazy managers and administrators will have problems.

[OCanada]

For anyone following along a SRO in the financial would be like a stock exchange. Their priority is to protect the investor by establishing rules, regulations, and set standards of procedures which promote ethics, equality, and professionalism. In theory.

The markets in the US have become characterized largely by monopolistic markets where wealth creation has given way to increasing pricing power etc. Hence my comment.

I agree, at least mostly the NCAA needs to be restructured

[a fan]

The NCAA is trying to use Title IX to say that if the football and basketball players get paid, then the softball players need to get equally paid. Socialism.

Respectfully, that's not socialism.

Besides, what you are complaining about here is already happening in the NCAA, isn't it? Does the starting quarterback at Michigan get the same financial deal as the third string Center, who never sees the field? Room, board, and tuition, correct?

Btw, to your socialism comment: who owns and operates the University of Michigan Football team?

That's right. The government. THAT is socialism.

[OCanada]

Well not to quibble but I disagree. Socialism by definition is government ownership of the means of production in a society. Education is a public goal and good.

[a fan]

Oxford English Dictionary has an exemption in the definition of socialism for "public goals", does it? You'll have to give me a citation for that.

Sorry, mate. It's socialism. You don't get to decide what that word means.

But even if you're right: The University of Michigan's Football Team is a public good?

And University of Michigan's Hospital System? Where does that fall in your made up (sorry, it is made up) definition of socialism?

[HowieT3]

The State of California, by enacting this law, is telling the NCAA that they can't punish any players or schools for allowing the players to receive money for endorsements or use of their likeness, etc. They way it could be argued by the NCAA - By being members, the schools have entered into a contract with the NCAA that they won't allow the payments and the State is interfering with that contract by saying that the players can get money. This type of state action was barred in 1819 by the Supreme Court's decision in Trustees of Dartmouth College v. Woodward, based on the Contracts Clause of the Constitution (Article 1, Section 10, clause 1), "No State shall ... pass any ... Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts... ." How does California say this doesn't violate the Contracts Clause?

A worse proposed law as far as lacrosse is concerned is one in NY that will specify that football and basketball players shall receive X% of the revenues coming into the Athletic Department. That will lead to the cutting of non-rev sports.

[Empirelaxer]

Everyone is focused on the current athletes. However, the long term effects and negative consequences will most be felt in recruiting. Those schools with insane booster clubs or deep pocket alums in live with the sports program will prosper. All other will fight over what’s left.

Think about the possibilities - come play at Stanford where Silicon Valley alum will give you venture fund stock options for endorsements. Or come play for the Bezos Tigers, formerly known as Princeton, where everyone gets a 6 figure internship at Amazon. Or maybe you want to play Alabama where 50% of the State will now hire you for no-show job.

And 17 year olds can now hire agents. How long before they are signing up 14 year old phenoms and then shopping them to schools where they get a cut. Your school best ha e the booster club agent slush fund if you want to compete.

Not going to happen? Doomsday? SMU did it in football when it was illegal and resulted in the death penalty. It’s all legal now.

[a fan]

Welcome to the free market.

It shows just how much of a cartel the NCAA and the Presidents of these schools is.

Think about all that repressed economic activity you're describing in your Stanford example that isn't happening now.

I thought that as Americans, we were supposed to be against that sort of economic repression?

American dream. Entrepreneurial spirit. Innovation. Free market value for your work. Are these not our core values?

[Farfromgeneva]

For anyone following along a SRO in the financial would be like a stock exchange. Their priority is to protect the investor by establishing rules, regulations, and set standards of procedures which promote ethics, equality, and professionalism. In theory.

The markets in the US have become characterized largely by monopolistic markets where wealth creation has given way to increasing pricing power etc. Hence my comment.

I agree, at least mostly the NCAA needs to be restructured

There are more than just FINRA/financial. SROs exist in a number of areas and every industry and non profits goal is regulatory capture. Colleges had succeeded in basically having that until now. Now they have to compete. The obvious answer is ultimately the 60-80 largest FB/BB school programs will detach, more or less, from the universities except for perhaps a loose affiliation. Professional leagues who’ve used college as a developmental system will have to adjust significantly as well. My sense is the NBA is far more ready for this than the NFL, adding to footballs challenges going forward. Seems like it could be really good for college student athletes and I doubt the money really filters down to small money losing sports which exist for diversity of student experiences primarily

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

BTW, some of the history of this issue, and why this gained traction in California, ties back to UCLA’s Ed O’Bannon suing and winning a case involving the video game producer EA (Electronic Arts) using an image of him (or his likeness) on the cover of one of their basketball games. That was a major crack in the NCAA’s armor.

[LandM]

afan,
Let's spin this a different way - played FB; my wife soccer; my son lax; and daughter swimmer - all D1 - guess which sport paid the bills?
1. As a donor and club seat holder at PSU we get access to just about anything (hopefully the Congress/ IRS will change the tax rules back ) - we constantly get calls about donating more - nope, we pay enough - the donors pay the bills not the PA taxpayers - there are 108,000 donors at each game - what happens if they fell off the planet?;
2. My point is I do not pay taxes in PA - we have friends at games that are getting older, live in NY and donate what we pay - they are starting to drop like flies - if you think the PA taxpayer is gonna be paying that bill - good luck;
3. Probably the top 40 players at PSU think they are moving to play on Sunday - at PSU walk into the field house - free food, smoothies, health bar - back in the day we got a box lunch ; then cruise over to the weight room - that is bigger then many corporate offices I have been in; then cruise over to the locker room - they have their own pods; if you think those top 40 are there for the education - I will drink what you are having;
4. Please do not get me started on the free gear and free food post-game;
5. Bowl games are awesome - watches, rings, gear and a whole lotta of freebies;
IMHO these kids are already being paid - he$$ I wish I had one quarter of what these kids are getting back in the day;

Also IMHO what the NCAA should be doing is setting up healthcare for college athletes - I personally have had 2 ankle procedure; 2 knee replacements and 1 hip replacement which i and my insurance company paid for - thankfully I do not need the blue pill IMHO, I have friends I played against, rough shape - a commission on a jersey sale is not gonna fix that issue. BTW, a car I managed to get by without. The NFL is looking at this issue and so should the NCAA.
Best

[a fan]

IMHO these kids are already being paid - he$$ I wish I had one quarter of what these kids are getting back in the day;

I understand that they are getting quite a bit by any standard.

But what you are telling me is that you believe in capping how much an American can earn.

You understand that, yes?

So for example, some think $1 million per year is plenty for any CEO in America. Should we cap what they can earn at that amount?

[wgdsr]

The NCAA is trying to use Title IX to say that if the football and basketball players get paid, then the softball players need to get equally paid. Socialism.

Respectfully, that's not socialism.

Besides, what you are complaining about here is already happening in the NCAA, isn't it? Does the starting quarterback at Michigan get the same financial deal as the third string Center, who never sees the field? Room, board, and tuition, correct?

Btw, to your socialism comment: who owns and operates the University of Michigan Football team?

That's right. The government. THAT is socialism.

how do you figure the government owns and operates the umich football team?