JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[MDlaxfan76]

The DNI was acting on the advice of the ODNI General Counsel, then following the guidance of the DoJ OLC.

First of all, who is the ODNI General Counsel, and who is his brother in law. That's like the 100th conflict of interest in this whole stupid episode

Even Andrea Mitchell defends the DNI's actions.

Good for her.

Ask Andrea if she would be happy if she brought a WB suit against her boss, and the DNI walked the complaint over to her boss, would she be happy.

Apparently you only trust leakers or whistleblowers.

There you go again. So after telling us you'd be happy if leakers took the legal path when you were upset about leaks of classified intel, we find out you weren't being intellectually honest with us.

And again, you're intentionally ignoring the F-A-C-T that Trump already told us that the main WB allegation is 100% true.

But you want to play games, and ignore that turd of a fact, so here we are.

Just don't tell me I can't comment on what's being spun.

When I comment on what's being spun, your juvenile response is "quit your crying".

Are you this unaware of how you treat others around here?

He's fully aware.

[old salt]

You are so full of it. So both the NDI and the IG write gushing letters/give flowery speeches about how pleased they are with the WB, and how they find his complaint fully credible.

Then the WB complaint---the salient point----is confirmed by both Trump and his lawyer on live TV to be true. Trump did indeed ask him to look into Biden.

And you come back with "this is a disgruntled employee".

Congratulations, you are now the biggest partisan on the board, surpassing both Bandito and DocB.

Take a bow.

Personal attack, hyperbole & virtiol much ? You grossly misrepresent the DNI & IC IG.

The DNI wisely remained arms length from this WB. His robust defense was of the WB process, not of this WB in particular.
The DNI accepted the IG's technical categorization of the the complaint. He did not address the merits of the WB's assertions.
The IC IG categorized the complaint, as he was required to do, based on the plausibility of it's content & the WB's apparent access to the information in the claim.
However, the timing of the changes made to the standard IC whistle blower form, removing the rqmt that it be based on first hand information (rather than hearsay) is a red flag which calls into question the actions of the IC IG if he played any part in promulgating the changie to that standard IC WB complaint form.

Errors & inconsistencies in the WB's claim are emerging, which increasingly call it's credibility into question.
Believe it or not, the WB process is often abused for score settling or to promote a personal agenda.
The WB made it clear that he is not acting alone.
We will learn more about the WB & the merits of his claim as the impeachment inquiry proceeds.

Ahhh, so now you are speculating that the IG is in on this nefarious Deep State take down of a duly elected, innocent as snow POTUS?

Yikes.

The DNI, who both you and I give the benefit of the doubt to as an honorable fellow, just between a rock and hard place, has been very, very strong in his defense of the WB. And you are incorrect as to how seriously and credibly the DNI has been about the WB, albeit largely based on his admiration and trust in the IG's honor and process.

Yes, the WB is not acting alone. Apparently a whole host of folks were outraged by Trump's behavior, and that of Rudy et al. Barr too implicated. These are most likely the professionals who have intimate knowledge of what has gone down, indeed, if we understand correctly they were warning against these actions for several months, yet Trump went forward fully warned that it was beyond the pale.

Everything we've seen so far has corroborated the WB's claims, separate server being misused, pressuring foreign leader for personal political benefit dangling already approved, badly need military aid $, various personnel involved.

This is really, really ugly but it's 100% on Trump, though Rudy and the fever swamp bear some responsibility as well as I think Trump may well have a problem discerning reality and takes his cues from the most outrageous surrounding him and on his screen.

The separate server being "misused" has been WH SOP for safeguarding phcons with foreign leaders since Jan 2017, when the phcons with the leaders of Mexico & Italy were leaked. It's not "misuse" to make those sensitive comms less accessible to leakers. It would be irresponsible not to limit distribution to protect them from leaking.

Plz explain the timing of the change to the IC IG whistleblower complaint form removing the rqmt for first hand information (rather that hearsay) for it to be categorized as "urgent".

The State Dept official the WB claimed was present for the call was not.

Unresponsive.
Are you again attacking the IG?

And I guess by implication the DNI who so strongly supports him individually as well as the WB process?

And are you saying that ALL communications with foreign leaders get this server treatment?
Really?
Or just those deemed politically sensitive to the interests of the POTUS?

And you're getting that where exactly? (facts please not speculation from the fever swamp).

I have no idea about about this first hand aspect, though it appears that the WB was in the authorized flow of information on a whole set of matters, and received information from numerous people who he apparently named, or at least he reportedly named the dozen corroborating witnesses. And, at least so far, no one is actually denying the veracity of the WB complaint's alleged facts...Trump just thinks whoever gave the WB the info is a 'spy' and a 'traitor' so should be treated the way things used to be handled...

Nah, no problem there.
Trump's a victim.

I'm attacking no one.
I responded to the only specifics you mentioned.
I'm witholding judgement on the IG until I learn more about his actions,
particularly regarding the changes to the standard IG WB complaint form.

Yup, you're just innocently speculating about a "red flag which calls into question the actions of the IC IG if he played any part in promulgating the changie to that standard IC WB complaint form."

Right. You're "withholding judgment".
Which also means you are rejecting the DNI's very strongly worded judgment about the IG.

Why?...oh yeah, you're not a Trumpist.

Regarding your second server being misused accusation :
Correction -- the second leaked phcon was to the leader of Australia (not Italy).
Two of the leaks early in the Trump term prompting measures to prevent future leaks.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-a ... d=65917080
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

ok, so Trump had a problem with embarrassing leaks...those indeed were some doozies.
But if I read correctly the server is being used to protect politically embarrassing material, not highly classified material.
The problem is that Trump says so many stupid, embarrassing things???
So, is that what is deserving of protection as deserving compartmentalized protection?
You do realize that's an abuse of the classification system, right?

Sounds like just some conversations are deemed embarrassing...like the one with Lavrov??
Putin???

It's gonna be interesting...

All conversations with foreign leaders are classified & could be damaging if leaked.
Give Zelesky credit for ok'ing this release. The EU leaders won't appreciate it.
Making this whole thing public is not helping resolve the situation in Ukraine,
which is what the WB & friends are supposedly concerned about.

[old salt]

The DNI was acting on the advice of the ODNI General Counsel, then following the guidance of the DoJ OLC.

First of all, who is the ODNI General Counsel, and who is his brother in law. That's like the 100th conflict of interest in this whole stupid episode

Even Andrea Mitchell defends the DNI's actions.

Good for her.

Ask Andrea if she would be happy if she brought a WB suit against her boss, and the DNI walked the complaint over to her boss, would she be happy.

Apparently you only trust leakers or whistleblowers.

There you go again. So after telling us you'd be happy if leakers took the legal path when you were upset about leaks of classified intel, we find out you weren't being intellectually honest with us.

And again, you're intentionally ignoring the F-A-C-T that Trump already told us that the main WB allegation is 100% true.

But you want to play games, and ignore that turd of a fact, so here we are.

Just don't tell me I can't comment on what's being spun.

When I comment on what's being spun, your juvenile response is "quit your crying".

Are you this unaware of how you treat others around here?

OK. I'll start calling them bison droppings.

[tech37]

Are you this unaware of how you treat others around here?

a fan this is just too funny!

You really should take a break...

[old salt]

The problem is that Trump says so many stupid, embarrassing things???
So, is that what is deserving of protection as deserving compartmentalized protection?
You do realize that's an abuse of the classification system, right?

Only in the eyes of leakers who can't get their hands on what they want to leak to undermine their CinC
& to promote their own personal policy agenda.

[a fan]

Tech37, I give the same tone I receive. Old Salt calls me a Drama Queen in one post, and then in the next one, calls me out for namecalling.

When the temperature in the kitchen goes up, I respond in kind.

You guys want to agree to tone it down? I'll be the happiest guy here.

[a fan]

The problem is that Trump says so many stupid, embarrassing things???
So, is that what is deserving of protection as deserving compartmentalized protection?
You do realize that's an abuse of the classification system, right?

Only in the eyes of leakers who can't get their hands on what they want to leak to undermine their CinC
& to promote their own personal policy agenda.

Shut up and serve our leader.

Loyalty first, country second. That's your attitude, and that's fine.

Many here don't agree. This isn't the military, and the President is supposed to be limited in power.

[tech37]

The problem is that Trump says so many stupid, embarrassing things???

Given. And he's the POTUS, get over it.

Now, what about:

USMCA ratification
Immigration solutions
Trade negotiations with China
the $hitheads in Iran
Denuclearization of Korean Pen
Infrastructure

Someone obviously needs to get their priorities in order

[a fan]

Yes. And it sucks that those won't get looked at if impeachment proceeds. Pretty sure everyone here would prefer we work on those things.

The flip side, as you know is: are you ok with a President asking a foreign leader to "investigate" a political enemy?

YouthAthletics is the only one here to say yes, so far.

Shall I add you to the list?

[Trinity]

Barr is allegedly “surprised and angry” the President lumped him in with Giuliani. Not enough to open an investigation or recuse, mind you. But putting some distance between himself and this hot, smoking turd of a scandal. What else is hidden on the Bin Laden sever? Gang of Eight wants to know.

[tech37]

Yes. And it sucks that those won't get looked at if impeachment proceeds. Pretty sure everyone here would prefer we work on those things.

Good lord a fan, you can't be serious...

99.9% of the people on here furiously do not want any credit going to Trump.

I couldn't care less who gets credit, so long as we accomplish good things for the country.

You're making my point actually...it's far more important to get rid of Trump than "work on those things." And it doesn't matter how pernicious... the ends justifies the means... Very sad...

And there's Trinity, right on cue.

[a fan]

So put words into every posters mouths, and make a bunch of strawmen? Isn't that the ONE thing you give me a hard time for?

So you answered my question then. You don't care that a President asking a foreign leader to "investigate" a political enemy, and you'd prefer to ignore that, and simply go about our business.

Stake in the ground, thank you. Now there are two of you.


No, it's not important to get rid of Trump. It's important to go through impeachment proceedings because many of us, including a pretty long list of retired Intel Community (in the broad sense), believe our President should not be able to attack his political rivals using a Foreign leader.

Because if we wave that through, what's next on the list of un-American behaviors from our current and future Presidents?

No one is above the law is a pretty solid American principle., wouldn't you think?

BTW, I know a whole mess of liberals who fear Pence more than they fear Trump.

[tech37]

So put words into every posters mouths, and make a bunch of strawmen? Isn't that the ONE thing you give me a hard time for?

So you answered my question then. You don't care that a President asking a foreign leader to "investigate" a political enemy, and you'd prefer to ignore that, and simply go about our business.

Stake in the ground, thank you. Now there are two of you.


No, it's not important to get rid of Trump. It's important to go through impeachment proceedings because many of us, including a pretty long list of retired Intel Community (in the broad sense), believe our President should not be able to attack his political rivals using a Foreign leader.

Because if we wave that through, what's next on the list of un-American behaviors from our current and future Presidents?

No one is above the law is a pretty solid American principle., wouldn't you think?

BTW, I know a whole mess of liberals who fear Pence more than they fear Trump.

a fan, get some rest.

[a fan]

Can't. At work, running stills. Thanks, though.

Have a great weekend.

[old salt]

The problem is that Trump says so many stupid, embarrassing things???
So, is that what is deserving of protection as deserving compartmentalized protection?
You do realize that's an abuse of the classification system, right?

Only in the eyes of leakers who can't get their hands on what they want to leak to undermine their CinC
& to promote their own personal policy agenda.

Shut up and serve our leader.

Loyalty first, country second. That's your attitude, and that's fine.

Many here don't agree. This isn't the military, and the President is supposed to be limited in power.

are you ok with a President asking a foreign leader to "investigate" a political enemy?

Some toning it down.

POTUS is the ultimate classification authority. If he chooses to classify his phcon transcripts TS/SCI to safeguard them from leaking, that's his call & totally appropriate. Based on the record, it appears to have been necessary & effective.

This phcon had to be declassified for release & it is not flattering to EU leaders, which impacts Zelesky more critically than Trump.

It doesn't bother me at all that Trump asked Zelesky to investigate what US citizens did in Ukraine & co-operate with our DoJ, as our treaty agreement calls for. The govt of Ukraine helped Mueller nail Manafort & Gates.

[MDlaxfan76]

You are so full of it. So both the NDI and the IG write gushing letters/give flowery speeches about how pleased they are with the WB, and how they find his complaint fully credible.

Then the WB complaint---the salient point----is confirmed by both Trump and his lawyer on live TV to be true. Trump did indeed ask him to look into Biden.

And you come back with "this is a disgruntled employee".

Congratulations, you are now the biggest partisan on the board, surpassing both Bandito and DocB.

Take a bow.

Personal attack, hyperbole & virtiol much ? You grossly misrepresent the DNI & IC IG.

The DNI wisely remained arms length from this WB. His robust defense was of the WB process, not of this WB in particular.
The DNI accepted the IG's technical categorization of the the complaint. He did not address the merits of the WB's assertions.
The IC IG categorized the complaint, as he was required to do, based on the plausibility of it's content & the WB's apparent access to the information in the claim.
However, the timing of the changes made to the standard IC whistle blower form, removing the rqmt that it be based on first hand information (rather than hearsay) is a red flag which calls into question the actions of the IC IG if he played any part in promulgating the changie to that standard IC WB complaint form.

Errors & inconsistencies in the WB's claim are emerging, which increasingly call it's credibility into question.
Believe it or not, the WB process is often abused for score settling or to promote a personal agenda.
The WB made it clear that he is not acting alone.
We will learn more about the WB & the merits of his claim as the impeachment inquiry proceeds.

Ahhh, so now you are speculating that the IG is in on this nefarious Deep State take down of a duly elected, innocent as snow POTUS?

Yikes.

The DNI, who both you and I give the benefit of the doubt to as an honorable fellow, just between a rock and hard place, has been very, very strong in his defense of the WB. And you are incorrect as to how seriously and credibly the DNI has been about the WB, albeit largely based on his admiration and trust in the IG's honor and process.

Yes, the WB is not acting alone. Apparently a whole host of folks were outraged by Trump's behavior, and that of Rudy et al. Barr too implicated. These are most likely the professionals who have intimate knowledge of what has gone down, indeed, if we understand correctly they were warning against these actions for several months, yet Trump went forward fully warned that it was beyond the pale.

Everything we've seen so far has corroborated the WB's claims, separate server being misused, pressuring foreign leader for personal political benefit dangling already approved, badly need military aid $, various personnel involved.

This is really, really ugly but it's 100% on Trump, though Rudy and the fever swamp bear some responsibility as well as I think Trump may well have a problem discerning reality and takes his cues from the most outrageous surrounding him and on his screen.

The separate server being "misused" has been WH SOP for safeguarding phcons with foreign leaders since Jan 2017, when the phcons with the leaders of Mexico & Italy were leaked. It's not "misuse" to make those sensitive comms less accessible to leakers. It would be irresponsible not to limit distribution to protect them from leaking.

Plz explain the timing of the change to the IC IG whistleblower complaint form removing the rqmt for first hand information (rather that hearsay) for it to be categorized as "urgent".

The State Dept official the WB claimed was present for the call was not.

Unresponsive.
Are you again attacking the IG?

And I guess by implication the DNI who so strongly supports him individually as well as the WB process?

And are you saying that ALL communications with foreign leaders get this server treatment?
Really?
Or just those deemed politically sensitive to the interests of the POTUS?

And you're getting that where exactly? (facts please not speculation from the fever swamp).

I have no idea about about this first hand aspect, though it appears that the WB was in the authorized flow of information on a whole set of matters, and received information from numerous people who he apparently named, or at least he reportedly named the dozen corroborating witnesses. And, at least so far, no one is actually denying the veracity of the WB complaint's alleged facts...Trump just thinks whoever gave the WB the info is a 'spy' and a 'traitor' so should be treated the way things used to be handled...

Nah, no problem there.
Trump's a victim.

I'm attacking no one.
I responded to the only specifics you mentioned.
I'm witholding judgement on the IG until I learn more about his actions,
particularly regarding the changes to the standard IG WB complaint form.

Yup, you're just innocently speculating about a "red flag which calls into question the actions of the IC IG if he played any part in promulgating the changie to that standard IC WB complaint form."

Right. You're "withholding judgment".
Which also means you are rejecting the DNI's very strongly worded judgment about the IG.

Why?...oh yeah, you're not a Trumpist.

Regarding your second server being misused accusation :
Correction -- the second leaked phcon was to the leader of Australia (not Italy).
Two of the leaks early in the Trump term prompting measures to prevent future leaks.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-a ... d=65917080
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

ok, so Trump had a problem with embarrassing leaks...those indeed were some doozies.
But if I read correctly the server is being used to protect politically embarrassing material, not highly classified material.
The problem is that Trump says so many stupid, embarrassing things???
So, is that what is deserving of protection as deserving compartmentalized protection?
You do realize that's an abuse of the classification system, right?

Sounds like just some conversations are deemed embarrassing...like the one with Lavrov??
Putin???

It's gonna be interesting...

All conversations with foreign leaders are classified & could be damaging if leaked.
Give Zelesky credit for ok'ing this release. The EU leaders won't appreciate it.
Making this whole thing public is not helping resolve the situation in Ukraine,
which is what the WB & friends are supposedly concerned about.

You are also fully aware of the differences in classifications and how such documents are to be handled.
Please understand that I have no issue with being careful with national security related, sensitive material...it's the special treatment for politically embarrassing material (for Trump) that is a breach of the rules and is anti-democratic.

Again, I blame Trump for this problem.

[MDlaxfan76]

The problem is that Trump says so many stupid, embarrassing things???
So, is that what is deserving of protection as deserving compartmentalized protection?
You do realize that's an abuse of the classification system, right?

Only in the eyes of leakers who can't get their hands on what they want to leak to undermine their CinC
& to promote their own personal policy agenda.

Shut up and serve our leader.

Loyalty first, country second. That's your attitude, and that's fine.

Many here don't agree. This isn't the military, and the President is supposed to be limited in power.

Some toning it down.

POTUS is the ultimate classification authority. If he chooses to classify his phcon transcripts TS/SCI to safeguard them from leaking, that's his call & totally appropriate. Based on the record, it appears to have been necessary & effective.

This phcon had to be declassified for release & it is not flattering to EU leaders, which impacts Zelesky more critically than Trump.

It doesn't bother me at all that Trump asked Zelesky to investigate what US citizens did in Ukraine & co-operate with our DoJ, as our treaty agreement calls for. The govt of Ukraine helped Mueller nail Manafort & Gates.

Again, your comments are transparent.

[old salt]

The problem is that Trump says so many stupid, embarrassing things???
So, is that what is deserving of protection as deserving compartmentalized protection?
You do realize that's an abuse of the classification system, right?

Only in the eyes of leakers who can't get their hands on what they want to leak to undermine their CinC
& to promote their own personal policy agenda.

Shut up and serve our leader.

Loyalty first, country second. That's your attitude, and that's fine.

Many here don't agree. This isn't the military, and the President is supposed to be limited in power.

Some toning it down.

POTUS is the ultimate classification authority. If he chooses to classify his phcon transcripts TS/SCI to safeguard them from leaking, that's his call & totally appropriate. Based on the record, it appears to have been necessary & effective.

This phcon had to be declassified for release & it is not flattering to EU leaders, which impacts Zelesky more critically than Trump.

It doesn't bother me at all that Trump asked Zelesky to investigate what US citizens did in Ukraine & co-operate with our DoJ, as our treaty agreement calls for. The govt of Ukraine helped Mueller nail Manafort & Gates.

Again, your comments are transparent.

I've made no secret of my contempt for leakers of classified matl.

[seacoaster]

Fixed this:

“Now, what about (the two years the GOP controlled both houses of Congress?):

Investigating misuse of the public trust and a constitutional office by the President)
USMCA ratification (GOP controlled Senate; What the heck)
Immigration solutions (GOP can’t compromise because of the endless Trump patter and re-election campaign)
Trade negotiations with China (the Chinese are sure to cave soon, right Larry? Steve?)
the $hitheads in Iran (well, Trump made this mess because of his Obama fetish; what now?)
Denuclearization of Korean Pen (BFFs Forever!!!)
Infrastructure (Democrats are waiting for the Senate on this)

[MDlaxfan76]

The problem is that Trump says so many stupid, embarrassing things???

Given. And he's the POTUS, get over it.

Now, what about:

USMCA ratification
Immigration solutions
Trade negotiations with China
the $hitheads in Iran
Denuclearization of Korean Pen
Infrastructure

Someone obviously needs to get their priorities in order

Again, my first priority is rule of law, the preservation of democracy.
This is all on Trump, and the knuckleheads who actually support him.

On your list, the USMCA is Trump's mess, a mild revision of NAFTA which he blew up.

Immigration is far, far worse of a problem, in every sense than in the prior decade...of his making.

The trade "negotiations" have exposed our vulnerabilities and blundering, rather than focused on the issues that truly do matter, most importantly IP theft (from a trade perspective)...all the while ignoring the genocide in western China, worst since the Holocaust.

The Iranian debacle is again of Trump's making.

Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula is a pipe dream unless you mean our withdrawal.

Infrastructure was a huge opportunity missed...that miss is on Trump (and the GOP).