JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[Farfromgeneva]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.or ... n-the-mind

[jhu72]

Oh totally. The rank and file men and women who work for our government should shut up, look the other way, and serve a man who we all know is unfit for office. They have to follow their oath, and Trump doesn't. Because Old Salt sez so. It's in some book, or something.

No, no, I got it----they should blow the whistle on Trump. Yeah, that works great.

What was it you said? Oh, right. The whistleblower law is stronger then ever.

And by stronger, you mean that the DNI will take any complaints about Trump to Trump's people in 24 hours instead of 48.

The WB law is not there to provide a forum for disgruntled civil servants to subvert the policies of the elected CinC which they do not agree with..
If they can't fullfill their duties in good faith, they should go home, find another job & write a book. Phil Mudd was right.
The more this WB's claims fall apart, the more we see how this was an abuse of the WB process.

You claim you don't approve of any US military aid to Ukraine ? Then you should be grateful to Trump for not funding the war there, until he knows he can trust the stand up comic who just became their latest President, to actually go after the rampant corruption which has made Ukraine little better than Russia. How would you like to see our Javelins & .50 cal sniper rifles in the hands of the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion ?
The transformation of you new Russia war hawks makes me laugh.
Why wasn't Chris Matthews sputtering about Javelins in 2014 ?
Sen Murphy's story is falling apart faster than he can walk it back.

Spin and deflect. Whether Trump was selling Javelin anti-tank missiles or 1970 era AMC Javelins is not the point. It's the manner in which the sale/delivery was made, made contingent upon fulfilling a personal desire of Trump's.

[old salt]

Oh totally. The rank and file men and women who work for our government should shut up, look the other way, and serve a man who we all know is unfit for office. They have to follow their oath, and Trump doesn't. Because Old Salt sez so. It's in some book, or something.

No, no, I got it----they should blow the whistle on Trump. Yeah, that works great.

What was it you said? Oh, right. The whistleblower law is stronger then ever.

And by stronger, you mean that the DNI will take any complaints about Trump to Trump's people in 24 hours instead of 48.

The WB law is not there to provide a forum for disgruntled civil servants to subvert the policies of the elected CinC which they do not agree with..
If they can't fullfill their duties in good faith, they should go home, find another job & write a book. Phil Mudd was right.
The more this WB's claims fall apart, the more we see how this was an abuse of the WB process.

You claim you don't approve of any US military aid to Ukraine ? Then you should be grateful to Trump for not funding the war there, until he knows he can trust the stand up comic who just became their latest President, to actually go after the rampant corruption which has made Ukraine little better than Russia. How would you like to see our Javelins & .50 cal sniper rifles in the hands of the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion ?
The transformation of you new Russia war hawks makes me laugh.
Why wasn't Chris Matthews sputtering about Javelins in 2014 ?
Sen Murphy's story is falling apart faster than he can walk it back.

Spin and deflect. Whether Trump was selling Javelin anti-tank missiles or 1970 era AMC Javelins is not the point. It's the manner in which the sale/delivery was made, made contingent upon fulfilling a personal desire of Trump's.

Are you confident that Zelesky even knew about the hold when he talked to Trump ?
The WP reported Trump told Mulvaney to hold the funds just days before the call.
No hold was mentioned during the call. FNC reports Zelensky didn't know @ 7/25.
Zelensky said he was not pressured.
Portman maintains Trump was using the hold in an attempt to get the EU to do more.

Sen Murphy's walkback :

https://freebeacon.com/national-securit ... y-meeting/

Murphy, who traveled to Ukraine and other European nations in early September with Sen. Ron Johnson (R., Wis.), has given inconsistent characterizations of his Sept. 5 meeting with Zelensky over the past two weeks, as Trump's conversations with Zelensky have drawn national and international attention. If, as Murphy says, Zelensky expressed grave concern over the administration’s actions, the Connecticut senator appears to have kept mum about it for over two weeks.

Murphy initially told news reporters in a Sept. 11 briefing that the Ukrainian president was "flummoxed" by the administration’s suspension of aid and wanted to reach a resolution to keep it flowing. Neither Zelensky nor any other official he spoke with brought up political requests from the Trump administration, he said, adding that they "didn't talk in depth" about the issue.

When news reports made public the whistleblower complaint public, Murphy called a press conference and offered a much more detailed recollection of his conversation with Zelensky.

The senator said Monday that the "entire new Ukrainian administration" including Zelensky told him they believed the United States withheld aid due to his "unwillingness to investigate the Bidens."

"Once I got on the ground there, I heard about how confused the entire new Ukrainian administration was about the nature of these demands they were getting from the Trump administration to conduct this political investigation, and that they worry that the aid that was being cut off to Ukraine by the president was a consequence for their unwillingness, at the time, to investigate the Bidens," Murphy said, adding that the concern was relayed to him "from the president directly."

Murphy did not, however, relay any of this information to reporters in the Sept. 11 briefing, where he stressed the limited nature of his conversation with Zelensky on the issue.

Contrary to his claim Monday that Zelensky felt the administration was withholding U.S. aid because of his unwillingness to investigate Hunter Biden, Murphy said Sept. 11 that Zelensky said he "didn't have a clear sense of why aid was being withheld."

Murphy said then that he had personally asked Zelensky about Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani’s attempts to investigate Hunter Biden and emphasized that Zelensky should rebuff any requests made outside of U.S. diplomatic channels.

"He was ready for that question, he wasn't surprised that I brought it up and his response was pretty simple: that they have no intention of getting involved in an American election," Murphy said, "but we didn’t talk in depth about the nature of the contacts and no one brought it up to us, I raised it with President Zelensky."

Johnson, who was with Murphy and Zelensky, told reporters that he told the Ukrainian president that the "primary rationale" for Trump's decision to withhold aid was lack of investment from other European countries.

"The first question President Zelensky asked was, ‘What's the deal with funding?' and because I had spoken with the president I answered that question, and I gave him as honest an answer as I could," Johnson said.

"The primary rationale [President Trump] gave me was that same idea that Europe was not stepping up to the plate to spend the money they should spend in their own backyard," Johnson explained. "He just thinks we're being played for suckers, and it irritates him."

The rough transcript of Trump's call with Zelensky released by the White House Wednesday morning substantiates Johnson's characterization of Trump's frustration.

[Trinity]

“- Years of dirty deals with the Russians compromises Trump
- A scared Trump tells the Russians he won't look into their attack on us
- This comment is kept secret but is known to the Russians, which further compromises Trump. It's all a circle of accountability, you see.”

Tom Nichols...The Death of Expertise

So....it appears

Gen. H.R. McMaster knew
Gen. John Kelly knew
Gen Jim Mattis knew
Reince Priebus - now a newly-minted Navy Ensign knew
Cmdr. Sean Spicer knew
Nikki Haley knew
Jeff Sessions knew
Rex Tillerson knew

How did Bob Mueller not know?

[youthathletics]

Serious question.....

If we set aside everything political between the the left and right and even imagine both sides are working together. What value does Putin or even Russia as a whole serve for the US? What is in it for us as a Country?

I ask b/c I honestly do not know, and feel as if Russia MUST insert themselves into our politics just to stay relevant in the eyes of their people. It seems to me we are stringing Russia along like that one HS or college kid that is rich & nobody likes, just so he can buy our beer and food on spring break.

[RedFromMI]

“- Years of dirty deals with the Russians compromises Trump
- A scared Trump tells the Russians he won't look into their attack on us
- This comment is kept secret but is known to the Russians, which further compromises Trump. It's all a circle of accountability, you see.”

Tom Nichols...The Death of Expertise

So....it appears

Gen. H.R. McMaster knew
Gen. John Kelly knew
Gen Jim Mattis knew
Reince Priebus - now a newly-minted Navy Ensign knew
Cmdr. Sean Spicer knew
Nikki Haley knew
Jeff Sessions knew
Rex Tillerson knew

How did Bob Mueller not know?

In a sense I think he knew, but I think he felt constrained by the DOJ rules about charging a sitting president, along with what limitations to his investigation he perceived. That is why you have all those instances of obstruction of justice laid out in his report. You can go back and look at his testimony before Congress and see that he all but said the only remedy at this time was one that Congress could take. It was just so low key and couched...

But since impeachment is a political process, the length of time it took to get to a conclusion gave Trump and his compatriots ample time to condition the public and especially the R/Trump base to make using it directly for articles of impeachment essentially a hopeless affair.

But the current revelations may well make the case - it is well enough documented with the release of the call summary, and the WB release not only confirms the call summary it gives a road map to how you further document the case. And to top it off, the continuing revelations (like about the meeting with Lavrov) just give further credence to suspicions outside the R/Trump loyalists that Trump does not have the interests of America in mind with his foreign policy but a combination of personal interests and an admiration for those dictators who can rule like he desires to here in the USA.

If it gets bad enough for Trump, the political calculations can rapidly change - no one wants to be stuck on the sinking ship.

[MDlaxfan76]

“- Years of dirty deals with the Russians compromises Trump
- A scared Trump tells the Russians he won't look into their attack on us
- This comment is kept secret but is known to the Russians, which further compromises Trump. It's all a circle of accountability, you see.”

Tom Nichols...The Death of Expertise

So....it appears

Gen. H.R. McMaster knew
Gen. John Kelly knew
Gen Jim Mattis knew
Reince Priebus - now a newly-minted Navy Ensign knew
Cmdr. Sean Spicer knew
Nikki Haley knew
Jeff Sessions knew
Rex Tillerson knew

How did Bob Mueller not know?

In a sense I think he knew, but I think he felt constrained by the DOJ rules about charging a sitting president, along with what limitations to his investigation he perceived. That is why you have all those instances of obstruction of justice laid out in his report. You can go back and look at his testimony before Congress and see that he all but said the only remedy at this time was one that Congress could take. It was just so low key and couched...

But since impeachment is a political process, the length of time it took to get to a conclusion gave Trump and his compatriots ample time to condition the public and especially the R/Trump base to make using it directly for articles of impeachment essentially a hopeless affair.

But the current revelations may well make the case - it is well enough documented with the release of the call summary, and the WB release not only confirms the call summary it gives a road map to how you further document the case. And to top it off, the continuing revelations (like about the meeting with Lavrov) just give further credence to suspicions outside the R/Trump loyalists that Trump does not have the interests of America in mind with his foreign policy but a combination of personal interests and an admiration for those dictators who can rule like he desires to here in the USA.

If it gets bad enough for Trump, the political calculations can rapidly change - no one wants to be stuck on the sinking ship.

Yes, Mueller knew that Trump and co were dirty as all get out with Russia. Said so in the Report.
Indicted what they could, couldn't prove more...obstruction described in depth.

But did he know about the special compartmented server holding relevant transcripts/summaries?
Did his information requests cover those transcripts/summaries?

Did the WH fail to comply?
Did anyone lie about the existence of that documentation?

Or did the Mueller team whiff on that one?

[RedFromMI]

Serious question.....

If we set aside everything political between the the left and right and even imagine both sides are working together. What value does Putin or even Russia as a whole serve for the US? What is in it for us as a Country?

I ask b/c I honestly do not know, and feel as if Russia MUST insert themselves into our politics just to stay relevant in the eyes of their people. It seems to me we are stringing Russia along like that one HS or college kid that is rich & nobody likes, just so he can buy our beer and food on spring break.

Russia and especially under Putin's leadership still thinks it is the former USSR... We have to pay enough attention due to their remaining military might, and Europe is somewhat dependent on energy supplies, especially natural gas from them.

Foreign policy towards Russia before Trump was mostly about making it costly for them to try and reassert complete control over the parts of the USSR that were spun off, so to speak, along with trying to make them behave more like the Western powers economically. (The West did help them redo their economy to some extent after the breakup of the USSR.)

But under Trump, FP is to my mind somewhat schizophrenic - he wants disengagement in general from the rest of the world militarily (thinking it costs us too much), but also seems to admire dictators like Putin, so wants to engender friendship. Complicating matters is that Trump does not really understand the reasons we have NATO, understand the economics of it, or why it has effectively kept Europe from WWIII. And his understanding of world trade is complicating things as well - everything to him is a zero sum game - winners/losers only. No way to get to a "deal" that benefits everyone.

That last idea is why he is so bad at making deals. He either "wins" (or redefines what a win is - see his NAFTA replacement which is only a modest modification of the original) or walks/limps away (pretty much everything now with Congress with D control of the House).

[RedFromMI]

[stuff omitted]

Yes, Mueller knew that Trump and co were dirty as all get out with Russia. Said so in the Report.
Indicted what they could, couldn't prove more...obstruction described in depth.

But did he know about the special compartmented server holding relevant transcripts/summaries?
Did his information requests cover those transcripts/summaries?

Did the WH fail to comply?
Did anyone lie about the existence of that documentation?

Or did the Mueller team whiff on that one?

Server? likely not

Requests probably did not, and maybe because Mueller thought them outside his purview

Fail to comply? My guess is yes in many instances

Anyone lie? Not sure that question was asked

Did they whiff? In a sense yes, but we have a group of administration employees along with intel community who are horrified at Trump's "diplomacy" and are willing to work to get out the information. Times for the next bit might get quite interesting...

[runrussellrun]

But, you just can't rap your head around the Pentagon being audited........we need to focus on OTHER laws

You want to replay something where I was clearly right, and you were clearly wrong? Ok. Let's do it. From July of this year.....

You are suddenly concerned about waste? Fraud? But poo pooed the FIRST evah Pentagon audit as worthless.

It was.

They run one every year now? Nope. Did they correct any of their accounting methods, or get fined by Congress for not following accounting rules that every other Dept. follows with no trouble whatsoever? Nope. You are WRONG about this

So yep. Pointless.

There you go. Who was right, and who was wrong? That's right, ace.

And instead of withholding funds, what did Trump and Congress----both D's and R's do? They increased spending over two bill by well over a Trillion dollars. And you're STILL thrilled they ran a pointless audit that did NOTHING but waste money. Because apparently we're supposed to believe that our military can't add and subtract.

What does Sept. 9th have to do with anything? What is the penalty for transmitttal beyond the 7 days? Nothing? exactly

So glad you asked. Would you like to hear what's up next, according to the law?

The Director can bury it and claim whatever nonsense he likes for not handing it over. Happy now? F happy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxoYVMM11JM



So now we no longer have a whistleblower law. And you and Old Salt are thrilled. Nice job. Are you serious? I think Ed Snowed at the INN should have a national holiday........guys who claim they remember it all.....forget..

Old Salt has now openly told us that he thinks leaking of classified intel is the only path for those who witness wrongdoing in our government. After lecturing us for years as to how important the classified system is.

Bravo. Gee, i wonder if anyone is going to get killed over this green light on leaking? Who cares, right? It's not me. I amNOT old salt/RandyRad

Meanwhile, our tax dollars are feeding the oligarchy to the tune of almost a $100 billion a day. And no one cares.

We discuss it nonstop. Look, you don't get to hassle us if you're not going to pay attention.

The idiots at the MSM need to understand this: to destroy tRump, you MUST put out 24/7/365 POSITIVE news stories, if you really want him gone. But, they don't.

What makes you think they want him gone? What, because Trump and Old Salt and Hannity sez so?

How much richer is the 1% with Trump in power? And who owns the media? Come on man. 1+1=2. Wake up. The media LOVES Trump. He is the all-time champion of clickbait. And will the 1% be richer if Trump gets elected? Take a wild guess.....

So....what is your point.....???

[youthathletics]

Serious question.....

If we set aside everything political between the the left and right and even imagine both sides are working together. What value does Putin or even Russia as a whole serve for the US? What is in it for us as a Country?

I ask b/c I honestly do not know, and feel as if Russia MUST insert themselves into our politics just to stay relevant in the eyes of their people. It seems to me we are stringing Russia along like that one HS or college kid that is rich & nobody likes, just so he can buy our beer and food on spring break.

Russia and especially under Putin's leadership still thinks it is the former USSR... We have to pay enough attention due to their remaining military might, and Europe is somewhat dependent on energy supplies, especially natural gas from them.

Foreign policy towards Russia before Trump was mostly about making it costly for them to try and reassert complete control over the parts of the USSR that were spun off, so to speak, along with trying to make them behave more like the Western powers economically. (The West did help them redo their economy to some extent after the breakup of the USSR.)

But under Trump, FP is to my mind somewhat schizophrenic - he wants disengagement in general from the rest of the world militarily (thinking it costs us too much), but also seems to admire dictators like Putin, so wants to engender friendship. Complicating matters is that Trump does not really understand the reasons we have NATO, understand the economics of it, or why it has effectively kept Europe from WWIII. And his understanding of world trade is complicating things as well - everything to him is a zero sum game - winners/losers only. No way to get to a "deal" that benefits everyone.

That last idea is why he is so bad at making deals. He either "wins" (or redefines what a win is - see his NAFTA replacement which is only a modest modification of the original) or walks/limps away (pretty much everything now with Congress with D control of the House).

Thanks. And based on your answer, what is getting hurt (in the eyes of the US) by Trump and Putin attempting to get more cozy together. Certainly neither will ever trust themselves....but it is indeed a diplomacy with Russia not tried in recent decades. Inserting politics into this, is it not the central mantra of the left to be cordial - but strong, attempt peace - before war.

I am having a real hard time buying into the insinuation that b/c Trump is appearing to become closer with Putin, that that somehow puts us in a poor situation. Maybe I am just too naive.

[MDlaxfan76]

Serious question.....

If we set aside everything political between the the left and right and even imagine both sides are working together. What value does Putin or even Russia as a whole serve for the US? What is in it for us as a Country?

I ask b/c I honestly do not know, and feel as if Russia MUST insert themselves into our politics just to stay relevant in the eyes of their people. It seems to me we are stringing Russia along like that one HS or college kid that is rich & nobody likes, just so he can buy our beer and food on spring break.

They remain a dangerous nuclear power, one which could, under various circumstances, enable various very bad actors to do great damage if not directly themselves.

If they devolve into chaos, that could well be the case.

The Europeans, our allies, have other issues (as well as the Russian bear on their border), most notably reliance on Russian energy supplies.

So, keeping Russia afloat but checked is realpolitik.
Putin has seen ours and the European's reluctance to get much tougher and he believes there is a lane for the rise of a new Soviet style importance in the world, or at least enough such perception to feed the Russian nationalist impulse that he depends upon to maintain the brutal kleptocracy he has built.

So, he has pushed various boundaries, both physical and other. Mostly under the cloak of secrecy or deniability, yet with a wink and a nod to his Russian base.

A key effort (along with killing or intimidating all enemies whether in Russia or abroad) has been the cyber division campaign and election interference in free democracies. He's understood our soft underbelly and has exploited it.

I had the opportunity to meet Bill Browder Thursday night at a rather intimate dinner at which he was honored for his work in human rights...fascinating story.

Colossal bravery and even greater impact, yet there were past awardees in the room who had suffered even more greatly, who have lost so much and who face daily danger.

Very, very humbling to be in the midst of such extraordinary people.

[MDlaxfan76]

Serious question.....

If we set aside everything political between the the left and right and even imagine both sides are working together. What value does Putin or even Russia as a whole serve for the US? What is in it for us as a Country?

I ask b/c I honestly do not know, and feel as if Russia MUST insert themselves into our politics just to stay relevant in the eyes of their people. It seems to me we are stringing Russia along like that one HS or college kid that is rich & nobody likes, just so he can buy our beer and food on spring break.

Russia and especially under Putin's leadership still thinks it is the former USSR... We have to pay enough attention due to their remaining military might, and Europe is somewhat dependent on energy supplies, especially natural gas from them.

Foreign policy towards Russia before Trump was mostly about making it costly for them to try and reassert complete control over the parts of the USSR that were spun off, so to speak, along with trying to make them behave more like the Western powers economically. (The West did help them redo their economy to some extent after the breakup of the USSR.)

But under Trump, FP is to my mind somewhat schizophrenic - he wants disengagement in general from the rest of the world militarily (thinking it costs us too much), but also seems to admire dictators like Putin, so wants to engender friendship. Complicating matters is that Trump does not really understand the reasons we have NATO, understand the economics of it, or why it has effectively kept Europe from WWIII. And his understanding of world trade is complicating things as well - everything to him is a zero sum game - winners/losers only. No way to get to a "deal" that benefits everyone.

That last idea is why he is so bad at making deals. He either "wins" (or redefines what a win is - see his NAFTA replacement which is only a modest modification of the original) or walks/limps away (pretty much everything now with Congress with D control of the House).

Thanks. And based on your answer, what is getting hurt (in the eyes of the US) by Trump and Putin attempting to get more cozy together. Certainly neither will ever trust themselves....but it is indeed a diplomacy with Russia not tried in recent decades. Inserting politics into this, is it not the central mantra of the left to be cordial - but strong, attempt peace - before war.

I am having a real hard time buying into the insinuation that b/c Trump is appearing to become closer with Putin, that that somehow puts us in a poor situation. Maybe I am just too naive.

Sounds indeed like naive.

Bush tried up close, personal diplomacy, so did HRC as SoS.
Putin kept pushing forward.

But Trump appears to truly not know or care how bad a guy Putin is, nor the dangers of his actions.

[Trinity]

Do we think the counterintelligence Investigation into Trump that McCabe started and Mueller passed off ever ended?

[youthathletics]

Serious question.....

If we set aside everything political between the the left and right and even imagine both sides are working together. What value does Putin or even Russia as a whole serve for the US? What is in it for us as a Country?

I ask b/c I honestly do not know, and feel as if Russia MUST insert themselves into our politics just to stay relevant in the eyes of their people. It seems to me we are stringing Russia along like that one HS or college kid that is rich & nobody likes, just so he can buy our beer and food on spring break.

Russia and especially under Putin's leadership still thinks it is the former USSR... We have to pay enough attention due to their remaining military might, and Europe is somewhat dependent on energy supplies, especially natural gas from them.

Foreign policy towards Russia before Trump was mostly about making it costly for them to try and reassert complete control over the parts of the USSR that were spun off, so to speak, along with trying to make them behave more like the Western powers economically. (The West did help them redo their economy to some extent after the breakup of the USSR.)

But under Trump, FP is to my mind somewhat schizophrenic - he wants disengagement in general from the rest of the world militarily (thinking it costs us too much), but also seems to admire dictators like Putin, so wants to engender friendship. Complicating matters is that Trump does not really understand the reasons we have NATO, understand the economics of it, or why it has effectively kept Europe from WWIII. And his understanding of world trade is complicating things as well - everything to him is a zero sum game - winners/losers only. No way to get to a "deal" that benefits everyone.

That last idea is why he is so bad at making deals. He either "wins" (or redefines what a win is - see his NAFTA replacement which is only a modest modification of the original) or walks/limps away (pretty much everything now with Congress with D control of the House).

Thanks. And based on your answer, what is getting hurt (in the eyes of the US) by Trump and Putin attempting to get more cozy together. Certainly neither will ever trust themselves....but it is indeed a diplomacy with Russia not tried in recent decades. Inserting politics into this, is it not the central mantra of the left to be cordial - but strong, attempt peace - before war.

I am having a real hard time buying into the insinuation that b/c Trump is appearing to become closer with Putin, that that somehow puts us in a poor situation. Maybe I am just too naive.

Sounds indeed like naive.

Bush tried up close, personal diplomacy, so did HRC as SoS.
Putin kept pushing forward.

But Trump appears to truly not know or care how bad a guy Putin is, nor the dangers of his actions.

So what "specifically' did Putin do to us that you feel concerned about during the Bush years and with HRC as SoS?

[MDlaxfan76]

Serious question.....

If we set aside everything political between the the left and right and even imagine both sides are working together. What value does Putin or even Russia as a whole serve for the US? What is in it for us as a Country?

I ask b/c I honestly do not know, and feel as if Russia MUST insert themselves into our politics just to stay relevant in the eyes of their people. It seems to me we are stringing Russia along like that one HS or college kid that is rich & nobody likes, just so he can buy our beer and food on spring break.

Russia and especially under Putin's leadership still thinks it is the former USSR... We have to pay enough attention due to their remaining military might, and Europe is somewhat dependent on energy supplies, especially natural gas from them.

Foreign policy towards Russia before Trump was mostly about making it costly for them to try and reassert complete control over the parts of the USSR that were spun off, so to speak, along with trying to make them behave more like the Western powers economically. (The West did help them redo their economy to some extent after the breakup of the USSR.)

But under Trump, FP is to my mind somewhat schizophrenic - he wants disengagement in general from the rest of the world militarily (thinking it costs us too much), but also seems to admire dictators like Putin, so wants to engender friendship. Complicating matters is that Trump does not really understand the reasons we have NATO, understand the economics of it, or why it has effectively kept Europe from WWIII. And his understanding of world trade is complicating things as well - everything to him is a zero sum game - winners/losers only. No way to get to a "deal" that benefits everyone.

That last idea is why he is so bad at making deals. He either "wins" (or redefines what a win is - see his NAFTA replacement which is only a modest modification of the original) or walks/limps away (pretty much everything now with Congress with D control of the House).

Thanks. And based on your answer, what is getting hurt (in the eyes of the US) by Trump and Putin attempting to get more cozy together. Certainly neither will ever trust themselves....but it is indeed a diplomacy with Russia not tried in recent decades. Inserting politics into this, is it not the central mantra of the left to be cordial - but strong, attempt peace - before war.

I am having a real hard time buying into the insinuation that b/c Trump is appearing to become closer with Putin, that that somehow puts us in a poor situation. Maybe I am just too naive.

Sounds indeed like naive.

Bush tried up close, personal diplomacy, so did HRC as SoS.
Putin kept pushing forward.

But Trump appears to truly not know or care how bad a guy Putin is, nor the dangers of his actions.

So what "specifically' did Putin do to us that you feel concerned about during the Bush years and with HRC as SoS?

Seriously?

You do know that those they supported with weapons and money kill Americans?

[youthathletics]

Serious question.....

If we set aside everything political between the the left and right and even imagine both sides are working together. What value does Putin or even Russia as a whole serve for the US? What is in it for us as a Country?

I ask b/c I honestly do not know, and feel as if Russia MUST insert themselves into our politics just to stay relevant in the eyes of their people. It seems to me we are stringing Russia along like that one HS or college kid that is rich & nobody likes, just so he can buy our beer and food on spring break.

Russia and especially under Putin's leadership still thinks it is the former USSR... We have to pay enough attention due to their remaining military might, and Europe is somewhat dependent on energy supplies, especially natural gas from them.

Foreign policy towards Russia before Trump was mostly about making it costly for them to try and reassert complete control over the parts of the USSR that were spun off, so to speak, along with trying to make them behave more like the Western powers economically. (The West did help them redo their economy to some extent after the breakup of the USSR.)

But under Trump, FP is to my mind somewhat schizophrenic - he wants disengagement in general from the rest of the world militarily (thinking it costs us too much), but also seems to admire dictators like Putin, so wants to engender friendship. Complicating matters is that Trump does not really understand the reasons we have NATO, understand the economics of it, or why it has effectively kept Europe from WWIII. And his understanding of world trade is complicating things as well - everything to him is a zero sum game - winners/losers only. No way to get to a "deal" that benefits everyone.

That last idea is why he is so bad at making deals. He either "wins" (or redefines what a win is - see his NAFTA replacement which is only a modest modification of the original) or walks/limps away (pretty much everything now with Congress with D control of the House).

Thanks. And based on your answer, what is getting hurt (in the eyes of the US) by Trump and Putin attempting to get more cozy together. Certainly neither will ever trust themselves....but it is indeed a diplomacy with Russia not tried in recent decades. Inserting politics into this, is it not the central mantra of the left to be cordial - but strong, attempt peace - before war.

I am having a real hard time buying into the insinuation that b/c Trump is appearing to become closer with Putin, that that somehow puts us in a poor situation. Maybe I am just too naive.

Sounds indeed like naive.

Bush tried up close, personal diplomacy, so did HRC as SoS.
Putin kept pushing forward.

But Trump appears to truly not know or care how bad a guy Putin is, nor the dangers of his actions.

So what "specifically' did Putin do to us that you feel concerned about during the Bush years and with HRC as SoS?

Seriously?

You do know that those they supported with weapons and money kill Americans?

Appreciate the short reply, but you still did not answer the question.

[MDlaxfan76]

Serious question.....

If we set aside everything political between the the left and right and even imagine both sides are working together. What value does Putin or even Russia as a whole serve for the US? What is in it for us as a Country?

I ask b/c I honestly do not know, and feel as if Russia MUST insert themselves into our politics just to stay relevant in the eyes of their people. It seems to me we are stringing Russia along like that one HS or college kid that is rich & nobody likes, just so he can buy our beer and food on spring break.

Russia and especially under Putin's leadership still thinks it is the former USSR... We have to pay enough attention due to their remaining military might, and Europe is somewhat dependent on energy supplies, especially natural gas from them.

Foreign policy towards Russia before Trump was mostly about making it costly for them to try and reassert complete control over the parts of the USSR that were spun off, so to speak, along with trying to make them behave more like the Western powers economically. (The West did help them redo their economy to some extent after the breakup of the USSR.)

But under Trump, FP is to my mind somewhat schizophrenic - he wants disengagement in general from the rest of the world militarily (thinking it costs us too much), but also seems to admire dictators like Putin, so wants to engender friendship. Complicating matters is that Trump does not really understand the reasons we have NATO, understand the economics of it, or why it has effectively kept Europe from WWIII. And his understanding of world trade is complicating things as well - everything to him is a zero sum game - winners/losers only. No way to get to a "deal" that benefits everyone.

That last idea is why he is so bad at making deals. He either "wins" (or redefines what a win is - see his NAFTA replacement which is only a modest modification of the original) or walks/limps away (pretty much everything now with Congress with D control of the House).

Thanks. And based on your answer, what is getting hurt (in the eyes of the US) by Trump and Putin attempting to get more cozy together. Certainly neither will ever trust themselves....but it is indeed a diplomacy with Russia not tried in recent decades. Inserting politics into this, is it not the central mantra of the left to be cordial - but strong, attempt peace - before war.

I am having a real hard time buying into the insinuation that b/c Trump is appearing to become closer with Putin, that that somehow puts us in a poor situation. Maybe I am just too naive.

Sounds indeed like naive.

Bush tried up close, personal diplomacy, so did HRC as SoS.
Putin kept pushing forward.

But Trump appears to truly not know or care how bad a guy Putin is, nor the dangers of his actions.

So what "specifically' did Putin do to us that you feel concerned about during the Bush years and with HRC as SoS?

Seriously?

You do know that those they supported with weapons and money kill Americans?

Appreciate the short reply, but you still did not answer the question.

okay, I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt.

For instance, Russia/Putin has supported Iran and its state sponsored terror funnel.
During Bush, during HRC as SoS.

Killing Americans and our allies.

Russia has supported NK, which has funneled nuclear technology to adversaries of the US.

Russia has supported gun running in Africa, killing Americans and our allies.

All during Bush and Obama years.

Russia has supported the genocide in Syria, killing Americans and resulting in a huge refugee disaster.

But why should we care?

[youthathletics]

Serious question.....

If we set aside everything political between the the left and right and even imagine both sides are working together. What value does Putin or even Russia as a whole serve for the US? What is in it for us as a Country?

I ask b/c I honestly do not know, and feel as if Russia MUST insert themselves into our politics just to stay relevant in the eyes of their people. It seems to me we are stringing Russia along like that one HS or college kid that is rich & nobody likes, just so he can buy our beer and food on spring break.

Russia and especially under Putin's leadership still thinks it is the former USSR... We have to pay enough attention due to their remaining military might, and Europe is somewhat dependent on energy supplies, especially natural gas from them.

Foreign policy towards Russia before Trump was mostly about making it costly for them to try and reassert complete control over the parts of the USSR that were spun off, so to speak, along with trying to make them behave more like the Western powers economically. (The West did help them redo their economy to some extent after the breakup of the USSR.)

But under Trump, FP is to my mind somewhat schizophrenic - he wants disengagement in general from the rest of the world militarily (thinking it costs us too much), but also seems to admire dictators like Putin, so wants to engender friendship. Complicating matters is that Trump does not really understand the reasons we have NATO, understand the economics of it, or why it has effectively kept Europe from WWIII. And his understanding of world trade is complicating things as well - everything to him is a zero sum game - winners/losers only. No way to get to a "deal" that benefits everyone.

That last idea is why he is so bad at making deals. He either "wins" (or redefines what a win is - see his NAFTA replacement which is only a modest modification of the original) or walks/limps away (pretty much everything now with Congress with D control of the House).

Thanks. And based on your answer, what is getting hurt (in the eyes of the US) by Trump and Putin attempting to get more cozy together. Certainly neither will ever trust themselves....but it is indeed a diplomacy with Russia not tried in recent decades. Inserting politics into this, is it not the central mantra of the left to be cordial - but strong, attempt peace - before war.

I am having a real hard time buying into the insinuation that b/c Trump is appearing to become closer with Putin, that that somehow puts us in a poor situation. Maybe I am just too naive.

Sounds indeed like naive.

Bush tried up close, personal diplomacy, so did HRC as SoS.
Putin kept pushing forward.

But Trump appears to truly not know or care how bad a guy Putin is, nor the dangers of his actions.

So what "specifically' did Putin do to us that you feel concerned about during the Bush years and with HRC as SoS?

Seriously?

You do know that those they supported with weapons and money kill Americans?

Appreciate the short reply, but you still did not answer the question.

okay, I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt.

For instance, Russia/Putin has supported Iran and its state sponsored terror funnel.
During Bush, during HRC as SoS.

Killing Americans and our allies.

Russia has supported NK, which has funneled nuclear technology to adversaries of the US.

Russia has supported gun running in Africa, killing Americans and our allies.

All during Bush and Obama years.

Russia has supported the genocide in Syria, killing Americans and resulting in a huge refugee disaster.

But why should we care?

Thanks, but I didn't ask if we should care, or not care what they do. Your argument is that we tried to play nice with them and it did not work. Mine is that at no other time has anyone tried to be up close and personal with the man and actually get to know him. And that is being seen as corrupt.

I do not know you from Adam, we bicker back and forth in text, but I bet if we sat down for dinner, had a private conversation about us...we'd certainly learn and have more empathy for each other....heL!, we'd even go play golf once a month and help each other move the couch when the wife wanted to re-arrange the furniture.

Trump is doing exactly what many claim is the correct thing to do and the the best way to teat people....with peace and respect, and now you all do not like it for some reason.

[Andersen]

Yep, the world is outraged because Trump is being "congenial" with Putin, makes perfect sense.