~21~ Let's Brandon Trump Trolls! ~21~

[seacoaster]

Agreed Holmes. I am just confounded as to how, if at all, we can put the toothpaste back in the tube.

[dislaxxic]

As hard as it is at times, i think the answer is to "not feed the trolls"...that is, to not respond in like kind, especially to the more spaced-out posts he makes. I think you, MD, have done a nice job at that, although like some of us other less couth posters, you have let fly with a pejorative or two in response, just not ever as "colorfully" as some of us have...

Responding with measured, reasoned responses may do the trick...but as long as there is no enforcement arm for civility here at FL, we're kinda stuck with his diatribes for now. There was a website he directed us to some time back...a place that had a LOT of invective that he regurgitates...and i can't find it now. One such place, not the one he sent us too, is this one which has been around for some time and presents a pretty good example of the kind of unhinged hatred that our pal Frito often displays. There are likely hundreds of similar places strewn about the InterTubes...I bet Frito knows Emperor Misha...



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[foreverlax]

Agreed Holmes. I am just confounded as to how, if at all, we can put the toothpaste back in the tube.

It can not be done....so just rinse, spit, and wash it down the drain.

[MDlaxfan76]

As hard as it is at times, i think the answer is to "not feed the trolls"...that is, to not respond in like kind, especially to the more spaced-out posts he makes. I think you, MD, have done a nice job at that, although like some of us other less couth posters, you have let fly with a pejorative or two in response, just not ever as "colorfully" as some of us have...

Responding with measured, reasoned responses may do the trick...but as long as there is no enforcement arm for civility here at FL, we're kinda stuck with his diatribes for now. There was a website he directed us to some time back...a place that had a LOT of invective that he regurgitates...and i can't find it now. One such place, not the one he sent us too, is this one which has been around for some time and presents a pretty good example of the kind of unhinged hatred that our pal Frito often displays. There are likely hundreds of similar places strewn about the InterTubes...I bet Frito knows Emperor Misha...



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Agreed.
I think that may be what bothers me most: the temptation to get down into the gutter in response.

[dislaxxic]

Well, you could always do what fattyRunWheatRussellBlueHeronField does and create an evil twin alter ego to muck around in the slop now and then!

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[hickorystick]

What a marvelous idea.
A little muck sloppin' now and then can be an exercise of the imagination. Vivid in its foulness.
Never done better than here, maybe. Aykroyd is just incredible, albeit extremely mild by today's standards/level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c91XUyg9iWM

[MDlaxfan76]

Well, you could always do what fattyRunWheatRussellBlueHeronField does and create an evil twin alter ego to muck around in the slop now and then!

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ohhh, it's not the being able to get down in the muck without being recognized, it's the slimy feeling one gets when one does something they know full well is wrong. When I lose my cool, no matter how 'righteous' I may be, it leaves me feeling smaller.

But then again, that's probably the difference between posters who simply disagree and wish to discuss why... and trolls...

[holmes435]

While we don't know if our troll-in-residence is one of the 400lb guys sitting in his mom's basement like Trump suggested, he's really effective at saying idiotic things most people would want to call out. He seems like he has a lot of experience with this.

One thing the media got really wrong with the whole Russian interference was calling the Internet Research Agency and other groups trolls and troll factories. It really waters down the fact that they are paid foreign agents who are deliberately creating discord and division. Chalk that up as another win for them.

[richard]

dan bonging deciple. He will not be gotten rid of or changed.

[admin]

Normally I post a link to the admin section for this kind of stuff but, as this thread is about internet trolls, i don't feel like i'm disrupting the flow.

1. Bandito, DMac, and Forever, I moved your posts to Hamsterdam. the language is great for Hamsterdam. Not so great for outside of Hamsterdam.

2. If this was a party and someone was puking drunk, that's easy. You have his friends take him home. But what if someone is simply being obnoxious. That's harder to deal with. Puking drunk, easy to deal with. Obnoxious, harder. With this in mind...

3. Just because a goalie started the game, it doesn't mean he'll finish it. If early on, he lets up 5 goals, then another 5, and then another 5, for the benefit of the team, the coach needs to pull him. In Hamsterdam, swear to your hearts delight. Outside of Hamsterdam, do not. In Hamsterdam, feel free to be (within limits) obnoxious. Outside of Hamsterdam, tone it down. Going forward, If you bring your Hamsterdam persona to the Forum at large, that'll be defined as 5 quick goals. Do it again, that's another 5. 10 goals in the first half is not good. But, for the start of the second half, you're still on the field. Until another 5 and then ... You're pulled*. Like spoken to above, some poor behaviors are easier to define than others. But, in time, I'm confident that we'll define all of them. Bottomline, keep the Hamsterdam stuff in Hamsterdam.

* - My current thinking is that all forumites can post anywhere. And when a forumite gives up 5 quick goals, s/he still can post anywhere but... Petro is talking to the Goalie Coach. 5 more goals and the forumite is limited to posts within Hamsterdam. 5 more goals (keep in mind, giving up 5 goals while being limited to Hamsterdam is no small feat) and you're pulled. You're no longer on the field. Your account is deleted.

My name is "Admin". If I let up 5 goals, my name will become "Admin [5 ]". Another 5, my name will be "Admin [5 5 ]". Another 5, my name will be "Admin [5 5 5]". But no one will see it because I'll be off the field.

Per usual, further thoughts, ideas, etc. are welcome.

[dislaxxic]

In a mod-free world, i guess this makes sense. I feel like it's a shame that we have to have two parallel boards with a bunch of similar/same threads in them...that gets confusing for us old-timers. The reason for it is pretty obviously ONE POSTER who has extreme difficulty with language and attitude. There are plenty of people on here that i have personally jousted with ad nauseum over the years, often in really acrimonious and resentful ways, but the level of comportment NEVER reached the levels it has in the brief time that this person has been posting here at FL. As much as it pains me to admit, i have even occasionally learned things from some of my more consistent tormentors here, no need to name them, i think they know who they are, but in the spirit of discourse, of the kind of back-and-forth that impassioned political discussions that go on around here...i would even admit to a grudging respect for some of my political opponents here.

That's not true, not really possible, with the "nuclear option" approach that this particular poster brings to the place.

You can be...and we have a few examples of it in our number...a Trump supporter without the invective and profanity, no? I find it comes out more in the manner of "If Trump could just do well, the country would be better off" mode...so let's "give it a chance" type of support...are we not giving this ONE POSTER all kinds of power to manipulate the threads with profanity bombs and personal insults mostly every day?

I can't thank Admin enough for all he does for this Board. It obviously wouldn't be here without him. I get (perhaps more than others) the difficulty in trying to moderate a gaggle like this, having interacted with LP mods a bunch and had my share of "holidays" from posting and deleted/edited posts. The whole notion of moderating seems destined to lead to issues with prejudices and notions of propriety that the likes of us - who come here every day to bandy political views and such - could never agree on...BUT...

It seems clear an effort is needed/desired. This situation is dragging down the whole enterprise because of one person, basically. It appears that the proposal will not be remedial, as our troll friend has clearly earned numerous "5s" to date. A personal insult appeared just this morning...

At the end of the day, we're all lacrosse players, right? We line up and shake hands before games, and after games too. That's cause, on a pretty consistent basis, we "Honor The Game". The situation that has brought us to this thread does NOT honor the game we play here at FL, so finding a solution to it will help us all out, IMHO...i think the proposed solution is a start, let's see how it works...

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[admin]

Dislax, agreed on all points. Except maybe one. While one post-er stands above the rest, i'm not sure that he's alone. If the personal attacks were all in one direction, this would've been amended a while ago. If he was the only one swearing, being belligerent, etc. But this situation is what it is.

As you spoke to, we can't set rules and then enforce them retroactively. So, we set the rules, make the repercussions clear, and then we can enforce them going forward. Once the people who should be living full-time within Hamsterdam are limited to Hamsterdam, people will vote with their feet where they want to discuss what they want to discuss. Some people like Coke, some people like Pepsi, and some people like Coke with a jigger of rum. To each their own. But with our ability to limit these people to here and those people to both here and there, the people who want a can of Coke will not be forced to have a Coke with rum. (For what it's worth, these rules are not based on my personal tastes, politics, or otherwise. I think these discussions, at least the heated ones, have little to nothing to do with politics. Just because the subject of the post is a democrat/liberal or republican/conservative doesn't mean the post is political.) What we're doing is based on a need to create delineation. There should be a place for all lacrosse fans at our party. But when a belligerent fan or fans is ruining the experience for others, we need to create separate spaces for these two sets of fans. Not a space for liberals and a space for conservatives. A space for people who want Coke and a space for people who want Coke with rum. In other words, for some topics, there may be two threads. But this will only be because people want it that way.

[dislaxxic]

Posters have responded in kind to this person, and while that is probably regrettable, it is only natural. Instincts to "stand up to the bully" happen on the playground, and here at FL. When it first started happening, i think everybody was pretty shocked (knowing how fast the ax would've come down in LP) but it continued unabated and it pretty quickly became clear that his particular brand of profanity and insulting wasn't going to be constrained. Plenty of us have insulted each other now and then, but never in the terms used by this person. At least not without (previously) earning a holiday or a banning.

That's what i meant when i said he is dragging the whole enterprise down with his behavior. To NOT respond in kind is a bit much to expect in this atmosphere, isn't it? Maybe it isn't. I'd point out that several of our more thoughtful and typically restrained commentators have struggled mightily to avoid responding in kind. It sounds like the admin position is that the Wild West may continue, with an attempt to corral it into Hamsterdam, with a further "branding" to take place periodically to indicate Strike One, Two and Three (5 + 5 + 5). ...and...it sounds like you're offering a chance to self-regulate for the time being.

Notice Posted...Recommendation is: no responses in kind, folks! ["Don't Feed The Trolls"]. We can find more clever ways to counter the gutter tactics. Potty mouth comments are being recorded.

Can we assume that the "Goals Allowed" analysis has begun?

PS:

In other words, for some topics, there may be two threads. But this will only be because people want it that way.

But if only one person is dragging down the dialog ("people" want it that way), does the thread get duplicated? This is how one person can kinda drag down the whole layout, no?

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[MDlaxfan76]

As I look at the Hamsterdam section, clearly the SCOTUS thread stands out as one which drew a lot of activity and could be replaced by a more civil discussion in non-hamster fashion here. I think there's considerable interest in continuing that thread, but without the worst behaviors.

Would it be too big a pain in the tail, ADMIN, to move the bulk of that thread to this section? Seems to me that the one poster in question's posts could be left there, and any others you think crossed the line as people battled back at him in ways you would consider similarly hansterish. If people want to just battle that way, they can do so there, but most of the actual discussion, excluding that one poster, while heated, was within reason and often quite interesting, regardless of political perspective.

The easiest way to do that might be to move the whole thread, excluding the one poster's prior posts, and then for anyone who sees an offending post to simply flag it for removal back to the Hamsterdam version of the thread.

If there are other threads that the bulk of which was reasoned and civil, those too might be moved or reconstituted here.

Let the hamsters chew on one another if they truly wish.

[admin]

It sounds like you're offering a chance to self-regulate for the time being.

Yes. Now and for the foreseeable future. This doesn't mean FanLax is the wild west. No more than when you invite guests to your house that it becomes the wild west. However you want to see it. that we have no moderators or we're all moderators. it's up to you. but I currently don't see why we knight specific people to have the power to say Yey or Ney to people and their posts.

Can we assume that the "Goals Allowed" analysis has begun?

Yes.

In other words, for some topics, there may be two threads. But this will only be because people want it that way.

Yes. For example...

The SCOTUS thread... move the bulk of that thread to this section?

Done. Two issues (which is good. good to better understand the details of how we can do this.): 1- I moved the "profane posts" to Hamsterdam and... Not all profanity is created equal. some are obvious and easy. Some less so. I think it's better to write BS instead of other language and it's tricky to discuss what a president said and not use the word that he said. But, again, like BS, I'm confident that we can finesse it. 2- Though I didn't look closely (yet), I'm confident that there are posts that are profane that lack profanity. That's tougher. But, as discussed, i'm confident that we can make pretty good judgment calls.

If there are other threads that the bulk of which was reasoned and civil, those too might be moved or reconstituted here.

Agreed. but let's first see what happens with this SCOTUS move.

[MDlaxfan76]

Thanks; let's continue to evolve this process as best we can, recognizing that to err is human.

[HooDat]

yeah, I am probably done checking into hotel Hamsterdam....

[dislaxxic]

"No Mother Forkin WAY, Shirtface" (Eleanor Shellstrop in The Good Place)



I'm in...

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[admin]

An incident from this thread has been reported within the Law & Order Forum. Please comment within the Law & Order Forum, and not here, so as not to disrupt the current discussion.

[cradleandshoot]

Posters have responded in kind to this person, and while that is probably regrettable, it is only natural. Instincts to "stand up to the bully" happen on the playground, and here at FL. When it first started happening, i think everybody was pretty shocked (knowing how fast the ax would've come down in LP) but it continued unabated and it pretty quickly became clear that his particular brand of profanity and insulting wasn't going to be constrained. Plenty of us have insulted each other now and then, but never in the terms used by this person. At least not without (previously) earning a holiday or a banning.

That's what i meant when i said he is dragging the whole enterprise down with his behavior. To NOT respond in kind is a bit much to expect in this atmosphere, isn't it? Maybe it isn't. I'd point out that several of our more thoughtful and typically restrained commentators have struggled mightily to avoid responding in kind. It sounds like the admin position is that the Wild West may continue, with an attempt to corral it into Hamsterdam, with a further "branding" to take place periodically to indicate Strike One, Two and Three (5 + 5 + 5). ...and...it sounds like you're offering a chance to self-regulate for the time being.

Notice Posted...Recommendation is: no responses in kind, folks! ["Don't Feed The Trolls"]. We can find more clever ways to counter the gutter tactics. Potty mouth comments are being recorded.

Can we assume that the "Goals Allowed" analysis has begun?

PS:

In other words, for some topics, there may be two threads. But this will only be because people want it that way.

But if only one person is dragging down the dialog ("people" want it that way), does the thread get duplicated? This is how one person can kinda drag down the whole layout, no?

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I agree with you Bart 100%. You and I have had more than our share of disagreements and harsh words but at the end of the day I always respect you even when I don't agree with you. I don't think you can persuade any one by insulting them and calling them names. cussing1 What is that term you libs love... mean spiritedness?