JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[a fan]

100% irrelevant. Every word. Although I'm impressed with your "prevailing winds" excuse. I'll have to remember that one.

Problem ain't the winds, or the crew, or MSNBC, or anything else you want to throw at the problem.

The problem, as you know, is Trump owns that resort. The instant Trump sells? All that goes away, and you can start routing every man, woman, and child in this man's army through that stupid airport.


But as always, defend Trump, and attack anyone who dares to criticize your leader. Or clutch your pearls. Or call them TDS'ers. Or all three. Hell, why not?

[old salt]

Prestwick has become a valuable stopover airport for the USAF. They listed it in their Top 5.

The USAF should stand their ground & not be cowed by this BS into not using Prestwick.
They should hold an all-AF golf tourney at Turnberry.

It's over the top for these political hacks on MSNBC masquerading as journalists to accuse the USAF for being corrupt.

Don't you see what's being played here -- now that Russiagate has fizzled, the new impeachment talking points are emoluments.

Who cares if they slime the USAF in the process.

[foreverlax]

I so totally disagree with your view on this...it stinks and you dont care.

[old salt]

It's partisan political BS & wrong to drag the USAF into this.

Nasty Nicole says there's now blood in the water. Unbelievable.

[3rdPersonPlural]

When comparing stopover refueling costs, the MSNBC propagandist fails to factor in the costs of manning & maintaining those US air bases, or the wasted fuel & flt hr costs in routing via them, or factors like weather, available ramp space or cargo loads picked up/dropped off along the way at those or other bases. Any of those considerations could have factored into the decision to route that flight through Prestwick.

The airbases we maintain only pay for themselves in that our planes can get cheap fuel there. This is why our air flotillas stop there to refuel. There was an $11 million fuel bill at Prestwick. If there had been a weather issue or logistical matter, this would have come out right away, as ONE thing that Pentagon people learn quickly is the value of CYA.

And once they got to Prestwick, WHY did they schlep 30 minutes away to stay at a super pricey golf resort rather than one of the cheap local hotels in the area https://lmgtfy.com/?q=hotels+near+prest ... t+scotland?

Do you want to try 'they might have all been booked solid'? You know that the press will sort that one out overnight.

This is 45 boosting the Pentagon budget by billions and then demanding as much as he can get put back into his own pocket or into his blasted wall.

[DMac]

afan,'
I take my ethics seriously - there is allot of folks I did business with who may not have liked me but knew I was ethical....at a service academy they teach us, Duty, Honor, Country - I only know a few that violated that code. You might want to stand down on that charge.

Happy to stand down when you tell me that you know doggone well that it's not ok for a sitting President to profit by having Federal Employees give him business.
I think everyone is in agreement with this.

Let me try this again. Unless things have changed you get a daily per diem - there is NO expense reports like in business. If a service member wants to spend his daily per diem on a brothel that is what you can do. When you get back, there is no detailed expense report and no bean counter figuring out how you spent your money - you and others are trying to apply business expense reports and accounting where it does not exist.

Yet another problem with the DoD. Bullsh*t, half-*ssed accounting methods that wouldn't pass muster in any 1st world office setting.
This is true, and has been for quite a number of decades. Their money is not like your money, it's just replenished, not earned. If you don't spend your allotment this year, you don't get as much next year, better spend it all. As for the crewmen though, I'm not so sure the most efficient way to handle the relatively small amount they get for this kind of situation isn't the most efficient way to handle it. Here's the amount we've determined is reasonable for you to make it through a couple of days, see ya. No receipts (LandM is exactly right as to how it works) no additional paper work, no additional time/man hours, etc. Done deal, see ya. Frugal people can make a buck or two, others spend it all plus some.

You think this is an "accident"? I don't. But that's beside the point here.
Whether it's an accident or not, it has nothing to do with the crew members, this is all way above their pay grade. They arranged and/or manipulated nothing, they just went along with the arrangemnts/guidelines that were set up for them.


What you are telling me is that the people serving in our Armed Forces are so stupid that they can't possibly think for themselves, and realize that staying in a hotel owned by Trumpy is unethical, and a *iss poor use of our tax dollars. Stay somewhere else. It ain't that hard.
Neither you, nor I, OS, SClax, LandM, or MDlax would give this a second's thought, we would likely think it would be stupid to not stay at the place and hopefuly get in a round of golf just like the people before us did. Why would any of us be accused of being stupid for staying at the Commander In Chief's place when it's been deemed as acceptable to do so?
But even having said that, I'm not hanging this on our troops. Trump is supposed to lead, for F sake, isn't he? Memo should have been issued before he took office. EO, stating no one drawing a Federal paycheck, or anyone contracting with the Fed government, can stay at a Trump property. Period.
But that never happened, leaving the crew as not being stupid or seeing any reason for staying somewhere else so as to avoid any compromise of ethics.

I'm sick of everyone lowering the bar for this guy at every turn. It's just ridiculous that I have to explain this stuff.
I'm not lowering the bar for Trump, I think he's an unscrupulous p*o*s who would indeed take advantage of this situation, but that has nothing to do with the crewmmen. They shouldn't even be a part of the discussion.

If I or my business gave campaign money to my Governor, do you think I would EVER take money from the State of Colorado's employees for events at my place? Hell, we don't allow political events at our shop....and this kickback cr*p is one of the reasons we don't.

I like the way I sleep, thank you very much. And I respect my fellow taxpayers way too much for that kind of small-town, good ol' boy kickback.

[foreverlax]

It's partisan political BS & wrong to drag the USAF into this.

Nasty Nicole says there's now blood in the water. Unbelievable.

No...the head of the feakin AF should have it made black and white clear...stay out of Trumpland. Period.

edit - this has nothing to do with the crew(s)

[a fan]

.... but that has nothing to do with the crewmmen. They shouldn't even be a part of the discussion.

I will 100% agree that the crew are dead last on the list of who is to blame here.

But as you go up the chain of command, foreverlax is right------sooner or later, you have to hit someone with a high enough rank to know better. A simple memo would take care of the issue. No muss, no fuss. Done.

[DMac]

Agree, but I'd take it a step further and say the crewmen aren't even on the list to blame.

[DocBarrister]

My former high school classmate Valerie Plame (we overlapped for a couple of years) is now running for Congress. As you may recall, she was betrayed by the dirtball George W. Bush administration. She now has the best Congressional campaign ad in all of history:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... ampaign-ad

Go Valerie!

DocBarrister

[Typical Lax Dad]

My former high school classmate Valerie Plame (we overlapped for a couple of years) is now running for Congress. As you may recall, she was betrayed by the dirtball George W. Bush administration. She now has the best Congressional campaign ad in all of history:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... ampaign-ad

Go Valerie!

DocBarrister

Thanks for posting that. Good commercial. I wish her well

[CU88]

My former high school classmate Valerie Plame (we overlapped for a couple of years) is now running for Congress. As you may recall, she was betrayed by the dirtball George W. Bush administration. She now has the best Congressional campaign ad in all of history:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... ampaign-ad

Go Valerie!

DocBarrister

Thanks for posting that. Good commercial. I wish her well

+1

That commerical style is going to be copied by others in the near future.

[MDlaxfan76]

Agree, but I'd take it a step further and say the crewmen aren't even on the list to blame.

Sounds like we're all on the same page here.
Frankly it's been a red herring by some of the right wingers on here to get all puffed about criticizing the crew men as if ANYONE thought they were the priority.

You earlier mentioned that I'd not have known better than to stay at a Trump property if my higher ups had green lit it.

Yeah, if I was at the bottom of the totem pole, and really wasn't astute in such matters, I'd probably not have given it much thought either...but that's not actually me, so I'm quite sure I'd have raised the red flag and said no thanks unless I was ordered to go. And I'd have been uncomfortable following that order.

But the higher-ups are paid to know better; and if you go well up the ladder, this was another no-brainer.

[MDlaxfan76]

My former high school classmate Valerie Plame (we overlapped for a couple of years) is now running for Congress. As you may recall, she was betrayed by the dirtball George W. Bush administration. She now has the best Congressional campaign ad in all of history:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... ampaign-ad

Go Valerie!

DocBarrister

Thanks for posting that. Good commercial. I wish her well

+1

That commerical style is going to be copied by others in the near future.

cool ad!

[MDlaxfan76]

I so totally disagree with your view on this...it stinks and you dont care.

Salty is, if nothing else, reliable.

[DMac]

Agree, but I'd take it a step further and say the crewmen aren't even on the list to blame.

Sounds like we're all on the same page here.
Frankly it's been a red herring by some of the right wingers on here to get all puffed about criticizing the crew men as if ANYONE thought they were the priority.

You earlier mentioned that I'd not have known better than to stay at a Trump property if my higher ups had green lit it.

Yeah, if I was at the bottom of the totem pole, and really wasn't astute in such matters, I'd probably not have given it much thought either...but that's not actually me, so I'm quite sure I'd have raised the red flag and said no thanks unless I was ordered to go. And I'd have been uncomfortable following that order.

But the higher-ups are paid to know better; and if you go well up the ladder, this was another no-brainer.

I don't know what rank these guys are but I'm bettin' they're nowhere near the top of of the totem pole.
From one of the many articles out there:
"Between 2015 and 2019, aircraft stopped at Prestwick 936 times and crews stayed overnight 659 times. The frequency of those stops increased from 95 stopovers and 40 overnight stays in 2015 to 250 stopovers and 220 overnight stays for the first eight months of 2019. The Air Force does not say how many of those stays were at the Trump resort."

Say of the 220 overnight stays, 75 of them were at a Trump resort.
What reason would you have to raise a red flag? Obviously, from what you've seen and heard there is nothing to question here.

[Trinity]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/09/us/p ... berry.html

Scots document that Trump .Org and The Donald set up the Turnberry relationship.

[RedFromMI]

BTW, Royal Troon golf course, which has held about double the Opens as Turnberry is closer to Prestwick...

Much more concerning is https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/09/us/p ... ussia.html.

All because the intel community was so worried about the national security disaster that our current President is that they felt this very high asset was in danger. Loss was huge for Russian intel

[old salt]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/09/us/p ... berry.html

Scots document that Trump .Org and The Donald set up the Turnberry relationship.

I can't believe you made me waste a free NYT read on this. The arrangement was made in 2014 (before Trump was even a candidate) & was aimed primarily at corporate & commercial aircraft. but was also extended to military, US & others.

“As a list of hotels that we use for our business, being honest, Turnberry was always last on the list, based on price,” Jules Matteoni, a manager at Glasgow Prestwick, wrote in June 2015 to executives at Trump Turnberry. “Yesterday’s proposal places Turnberry in a favorable position and gives us food for thought in our placement of crews moving forward.”

Mr. Trump visited Glasgow Prestwick in 2014 and promised to help increase traffic at the airport, although at the time he was largely referring to plans to drive corporate jets there and attract other commercial traffic perhaps carrying golfers on the way to his resort.

“Forging a new partnership between the airport and the Trump Organization will undoubtedly be mutually beneficial,” Iain Cochrane, then the chief executive of the airport, said at the time of Mr. Trump’s visit.

The documents detailing these conversations were previously obtained by reporters in Scotland, including The Scotsman and The Guardian, who wrote articles about the relationship between the Prestwick airport and the Trump Organization. The documents are still posted on the Scottish government website.

Both the Defense Department and executives at the airport confirmed on Monday that the airport also has a separate arrangement with the United States Air Force. Under that arrangement, the Scottish airport not only refuels American military planes but also helps arrange hotel accommodations for arriving crews, as it does for some civilian and commercial aircraft.

“We provide a full handling service for customers and routinely arrange overnight accommodation for visiting aircrew when requested,” the Prestwick airport said in a statement on Monday. “We use over a dozen local hotels, including Trump Turnberry, which accounts for a small percentage of the total hotel bookings we make.”

It was through the arrangement with the Pentagon that a seven-person United States Air Force crew ended up staying at the Trump Turnberry in March. An Air Force C-17 military transport plane was on its way from Alaska to Kuwait when it stopped at Prestwick overnight to refuel and give the crew a break.

The crew, which consisted of active duty and national guard members from Alaska, was charged $136 per room, which was less expensive than a Marriott property’s rate of $161. And both were under the per diem rate of $166.

“A local agent on contract with the U.S. government assisted with the reservations and indicated that there wasn’t a room available closer to Prestwick airport,” the Air Force said in a statement. A Defense Department official added on Monday that “yes — the Air Force relies on a contracted representative at the Prestwick airport to support our aircrew needs.”

The number of such stops by Air Force planes at Prestwick rose from 180 in 2017 to 257 last year and 259 so far this year. The 259 stops this year included 220 overnight stays. Since October 2017, records show 917 payments for expenses including fuel at the airport worth a total of $17.2 million.

Air Force officials could not say on Monday how many times military crews had been sent to Trump Turnberry, but added that they are now going through vouchers to come up with such a count.

Lt. Gen. Jon T. Thomas, the deputy commander of the Air Force Air Mobility Command, said in an interview on Monday that the rising number of military stopovers at Prestwick was entirely based on operational demands, as the airport is in a convenient location, has 24-hour operations and offers ample aircraft parking, among other advantages. He added that the Air Force has been using Prestwick for stopovers since at least the late 1990s.

But he agreed that the decision to place Air Force crew members at a hotel owned by Mr. Trump’s family had created questions that the Defense Department needed to address. As a result, the Air Force is now reviewing policies on where crews are put up in hotels during international trips.

“Let’s make sure we are considering potential for misperception that could be created by where we billet the aircrews,” he said. “It is a reasonable ask for us to make sure we are being sensitive to misperceptions that could be formed by the American people or Congress or anyone else.”

These arrangements were already in place before Trump was even a candidate. Of the hundreds of USAF stopovers at Prestwick, let's see how many stayed at Turnberry. I wonder how many USAF personnel even knew Trump owned Turnberry & how high up the chain of command it was realized that crews laying over at Preswick were patronizing a Trump owned property. Do their reservations, receipts & travel claims refer to it as "Trump Turnberry" or just "Turnberry". I wonder how many USAF crews played golf while there. I will be surprised if any high ranking personnel were aware of any of this. If they were, they'll be offered up. This has taken on a life of its own.

[old salt]

When comparing stopover refueling costs, the MSNBC propagandist fails to factor in the costs of manning & maintaining those US air bases, or the wasted fuel & flt hr costs in routing via them, or factors like weather, available ramp space or cargo loads picked up/dropped off along the way at those or other bases. Any of those considerations could have factored into the decision to route that flight through Prestwick.

The airbases we maintain only pay for themselves in that our planes can get cheap fuel there. This is why our air flotillas stop there to refuel. There was an $11 million fuel bill at Prestwick. If there had been a weather issue or logistical matter, this would have come out right away, as ONE thing that Pentagon people learn quickly is the value of CYA.

And once they got to Prestwick, WHY did they schlep 30 minutes away to stay at a super pricey golf resort rather than one of the cheap local hotels in the area https://lmgtfy.com/?q=hotels+near+prest ... t+scotland?

Do you want to try 'they might have all been booked solid'? You know that the press will sort that one out overnight.

This is 45 boosting the Pentagon budget by billions and then demanding as much as he can get put back into his own pocket or into his blasted wall.

Have you been reading the other links & posts where the USAF explains why they were increasing ops at Prestwick from before Trump was even a candidate ? You discount the total overhead costs in maintaining, staffing & operating an overseas air base.

The value in US overseas bases comes in the ability to forward deploy & operate aircraft there & to supply US forces operating there.
For military airfield operators, transient aircraft stopping over for refueling & crew rest are a nuisance. Prestwick is a great deal for the USAF, especially with RAF Mildenhall's drawdown. Any difference in fuel costs is more than offset by operating expenses & having another contingency airfield capable of handling aircraft as large as C-5's, each one is considered a national asset.

Lt. Gen. Jon T. Thomas, the deputy commander of the Air Force Air Mobility Command, said in an interview on Monday that the rising number of military stopovers at Prestwick was entirely based on operational demands, as the airport is in a convenient location, has 24-hour operations and offers ample aircraft parking, among other advantages. He added that the Air Force has been using Prestwick for stopovers since at least the late 1990s.

Fuel cost savings don't begin to cover the overall cost differential. A civilian airport like Prestwick, offering fuel at contract prices, with those kind of services, avail 24/7/365 is a bargain for the USAF.